General Shaun Clarke Mods....Updates

[Shaun Clarke]

Whatever your goal or whatever the benefits, if some 3D mesh has been illegitimately acquired, it's been illegitimately acquired. If these really are just adaptations of pre-existing mods that you use with permission, then I can understand why the mesh is similar.

I do have to commend you, that in just a few years, you're able to produce professional level physical models for racecars, to such a high level that it exceeds every single professionally developed GT-car package publicly available currently, that are so good that race teams use them for testing. And you offer some of it for free too, for us plebs.
I must be a complete hack, because I've studied these things for nearly a decade now and read dozens of serious books and papers on the subject, not to mention talked to a bunch of engineers, drivers and work's people in general and perhaps now I'm getting close to achieving over 90% accuracy in such types of cars. I could never do it with just a few years of experience.

I was really good at maths and physics at school, and maybe just found my really old calling, I cannot tell you how or why, something just clicked with this.

What I did find is no matter what the "factory" and "Books" told you, this was never used on track, but thank you for your seriously kind words.

I do what I do, as I explained why above. We have never created anything from scratch, this has been clear from day one, but we have always had permission

Shaun

 

[Kyuubeey]

Sorry, from a real, and not 1, not 2 but 3 drivers and a championship winner and also used in the highest professional driving instruction in the UK?

Seriously, you are questions real driver that actually drive the car?

Have you driven a Ginetta G55 Supercup?

Shaun

Shaun, I've had drivers tell me that really quite inaccurate cars are driving *exactly* like the real car. Think of driver feedback more like an extremely abstract and unreliable troubleshooting method.

Driver feedback means nearly nothing, sadly. It's just a nice ego boost for yourself and a confirmation that maybe perhaps in some way you are going in the right direction. In no way does it mean that your tires, aero, suspension and the like which are extremely subjective in perceived accuracy are even CLOSE to being representative. Simulation after all is just a lie in the perceived feeling.

I have about 7 - 8 years developing physics for sim cars, by the way. You have about 3 you said? papa is even more experienced, and easily knows 50x what I know, perhaps more. I would listen to him.

PS: Papa driving your cars have little to nothing to do with how accurate they are empirically.





I was also being sarcastic about your ability. I think you have a case of the Dunning Kruger effect, where you understand so little that you do not understand what you do not understand, so you over-estimate your ability. The calculations and understanding the underlying physics is perhaps 50% of the process, the rest 50% is based on experience and deep knowledge of real-world design practices.

 

[Shaun Clarke]

Fair enough, that's your opinion and your are clearly entitled to it, of course.

What I don't understand is, if a REAL driver gets in a SIM and says its 1/2 sec lap slower than they drive IRL and it handles like it does IRL, how does that comprehend that I don't know what I am doing?

At the end of the day you do what you enjoy, I do what I enjoy, right or wrong on either side, I respect and appreciate the feedback I get from real drivers in a sim racing environment in an virtual car they drive in real life.

Cannot get more real than that I guess.

 

[Mascot]

I'm always slightly saddened when mud starts to fly between people I respect in the sim racing world.
Ethical arguments aside, I'm grateful for ALL your work in keeping this awesome hobby fresh and exciting. But never lose sight that it is just a game, and we're all in this for the fun and enjoyment.

 

[Kyuubeey]

@Shaun Clarke

I am simply illustrating that even if your car is wrong or right, the driver will probably say something very similar! So you need * accurate hard data* and a VERY good eye and understanding of design and mechanics to produce something accurate. And even then us experienced physics creators admit, we are just probably educated guessing for the most part! Who knows if it's *really* accurate. The tires is the biggest inaccuracy, in fact.

 

[Shaun Clarke]

I'm always slightly saddened when mud starts to fly between people I respect in the sim racing world.
Ethical arguments aside, I'm grateful for ALL your work in keeping this awesome hobby fresh and exciting. But never lose sight that it is just a game, and we're all in this for the fun and enjoyment.

I agree, but my sight has always been "to save drivers money" so they can improve and progress without the expense of "real testing days"

Obviously they will need to have some real testing days, but considering this is limited, Sim time has proven to be a massive pivotal point and such a driver "aid"

Don't worry, this discussion is going to come to an end very shortly

Shaun

 

[Shaun Clarke]

@Shaun Clarke

I am simply illustrating that even if your car is wrong or right, the driver will probably say something very similar! So you need * accurate hard data* and a VERY good eye and understanding of design and mechanics to produce something accurate. And even then us experienced physics creators admit, we are just probably educated guessing for the most part! Who knows if it's *really* accurate. The tires is the biggest inaccuracy, in fact.

I agree, but if the whole package is within 1/2 second of IRL times ( and MF1Pap) did the tyres for me who do I believe?

A Sim racing hobbiest, or a IRL racing driver, actually a few?

Shaun

 

[Monol]

A Sim racing hobbiest, or a IRL racing driver, actually a few?

Shaun

Usually... you'd believe the data.

 

[Kyuubeey]

@Shaun Clarke

I would trust onboard footage of the same track, with the same or very similarly skilled drivers attempting to drive in the same style, over laptimes. I would trust telemetry even more! So my advice is to attempt to acquire those, if possible!

The racing driver can be used as a rough guide. Surely their opinion has more value than if you or me say ours. But do understand that out of 10 racing drivers, 5 will completely disagree about the car in different ways, and maybe if it's very good 5 will say it's pretty good.

I'm not trying to say offensive things or anything, this is good advice from things I've learned. Even my view can be wrong, so acquire the experience for yourself and see yourself.

 

[Shaun Clarke]

Usually... you'd believe the data.

From the Team / Driver?

 

[Mirta27]

A professional racing driver's opinion is not data, it's the exact same thing as when certain modding teams boast that their mod Civic has been tested by a real life Honda Civic owner.

They cannot tell if the car is objectively right based on real world hard data, they can only tell if it feels right to them. Feelings are not data, certainly you would understand this.

 

[Monol]

From the Team / Driver?

Telemetry data for the car, as Kyuubeey already mentioned. As far as I know, this is mostly done either by the Teams or the Manufacturer, but I'm not that invested in all of that, since I don't actually make car mods.

However, it doesn't take experience in the field to see that taking a more reliable source of information compared to, as you say a lot, Driver Experience, can yield better results for a more realistic car. Driver Experience does help to see if the car does feel correct, yes. But it's also entirely subjective, meaning that every driver may have an entirely different feel of the car... making that information unreliable to base the entire car on.

On a side note:
Lap Time isn't everything, because even a severely wrongly made car could end up reaching a half second off lap time... while being entirely inaccurate to the real deal.

 

[Kyuubeey]

From the Team / Driver?

If you have manufacturer/work's data, that's very good. This however is a simulation, so some things must be considered before inputting data, no matter how accurate empirically on paper.

We don't have:

Accurate heating physics
Chassis flex of any kind
Dynamic spring and damper motion ratios (You must decide WHERE in the travel your damper/spring is accurate! Static? Full braking?)
Independent spring and damper motion ratios to begin with
Damper hysteresis or any other oil properties
Damper temperatures in general
Any kind of suspension part binding like coil bind in springs
Bushing simulation: everything is infinitely stiff (Racecars are reasonably close in this regard I suppose)
Bumpstop and packer simulation that works properly with real rates (Can be achieved supposedly but has it's own problems)
Damper curve simulation for more than one change in angle ie: blowoff valve
Dynamic ratio steering racks
Power steering simulation (Mainly a feel thing)
Accurate suspension anti-forces: geometries must be tweaked which results in other, hopefully minor errors

This is just from the top of my head that I can remember at a moment's notice.

That is why you need experience too: to implement everything in a satisfactory manner.

EDIT: Spelling mistake in the last part of the list.

Also we lack spring preload as well, and a good way to do both tender springs and packers at the same time.

 

[garyjpaterson]

Lap Time isn't everything, because even a severely wrongly made car could end up reaching a half second off lap time... while being entirely inaccurate to the real deal.

I bet I could make the RV do same laptimes within 0.5s as a GT4 car

 

[mclarenf1papa]

I agree, but if the whole package is within 1/2 second of IRL times ( and MF1Pap) did the tyres for me who do I believe?

A Sim racing hobbiest, or a IRL racing driver, actually a few?

Shaun

Like I said, lap times are a poor measure of accuracy. It's easy to make a cars with completely different characteristics run the same lap times (look at the GT4 class IRL...). Even cars in arcade games can run realistic lap times. I can pretty much guarantee the tires I made for the Ginetta aren't super similar to the real ones. Tires are way too complex to totally guess at, and since I wasn't given any access to the telemetry and there wasn't any available data, that's basically what I had to do (educated guessing, sure, but still). I can take a car like the FLM09 IER did and see how the drivers said it was great far before it was actually physically accurate. Or the 458 Challenge I did and see that the drivers weren't really even ready to make those kind of assessments in the first place.

You're hearing the opinions of other people who have heard the same things from real drivers that you have. We're telling you it's really not all that important in assessing the accuracy of the car.

 

[garyjpaterson]

also i think the point has been missed completely.

Abstract art based physics are totally fine (hey I make them all the time), but when tacked onto assets taken without permission, RD is simply not the place to be flaunting them.

 

[Shaun Clarke]

Look, I will say this now, all this will be gone very shortly, as I am bored now.

I don't really care what you "super computer physics" people say, there is no comparison for a IRL driver giving him comparison and feedback

If a IRL driver says to me, yes, and you super Non IRL physics people say he is wrong, who am I to believe, and we are not just talking laptimes here, we are talking handling, braking, power, everything you know that effects the total physics of a car, so lap times are insignificant, I agree.

Like I said, I am bored now (shame) as I would love for any of you to actually study, travel, talk, visit and engage with Grass Roots Teams which I have done.

There is a Challenge right there, if you need contact details, let me know.

I am open to share anything and everything

Shaun

 

[Shaun Clarke]

Look, I will say this now, all this will be gone very shortly, as I am bored now.

I don't really care what you "super computer physics" people say, there is no comparison for a IRL driver giving him comparison and feedback

If a IRL driver says to me, yes, and you super Non IRL physics people say he is wrong, who am I to believe, and we are not just talking laptimes here, we are talking handling, braking, power, everything you know that effects the total physics of a car, so lap times are insignificant, I agree.

Like I said, I am bored now (shame) as I would love for any of you to actually study, travel, talk, visit and engage with Grass Roots Teams which I have done.

There is a Challenge right there, if you need contact details, let me know.

I am open to share anything and everything

You question my approach, I question you to prove me wrong, if you have the time, money, and travel and you will have to be invited and have full Garage Access and also introduce yourself before you arrive

Shaun

 

[Kyuubeey]

@Shaun Clarke

It's really cool you've been able to do what you have done, but please consider that quite a lot of physics people who have or will critique your methods either

A: Have degrees in real world engineering and are engineers
B: Have degrees in real world engineering and have been engineers
C: Have more experience than you, without engineering degrees or experience

I belong to C. Quite many physics people I know belong to A or B.

We all agree that the IRL driver is a completely subjective human being, and 10 if them might all disagree with each other and you even if your car is perfect. It could simple be a case of the FFB not feeling quite right, or the driving position not being quite right, the color of the track or the interior not being quite right...

You will understand in a few years, if you keep it up and keep learning.

 

[mclarenf1papa]

If a IRL driver says to me, yes, and you super Non IRL physics people say he is wrong, who am I to believe, and we are not just talking laptimes here, we are talking handling, braking, power, everything you know that effects the total physics of a car, so lap times are insignificant, I agree.

Like I said, I am bored now (shame) as I would love for any of you to actually study, travel, talk, visit and engage with Grass Roots Teams which I have done.

Some of us have worked with, talked to, visited, and engaged with professional international racing teams and grass roots racing teams (...and physically worked on some of the cars we've produced in the sim).

Driver opinion isn't going to produce an accurate power curve or accurate brake temperatures or accurate suspension geometry or numerous other things that require empirical data.