SFX-100 + Next Level V3 Owners Thread

[anton_Chez]

Hello friends! It's me again back with another helpful and entertaining RD thread! This time focusing on combining motion's new kid on the block, the SFX-100 AC Servo full chassis motion solution with our current favourite seat mover, the Next Level Racing V3 Motion Platform. We already have extensive threads for either of these amazing pieces of sim racing hardware, you can read more about them both in the links below:

- SFX-100 / SimFeedback-AC DIY

- Next Level Racing V3 Motion Platform

This thread will focus on the owners or potential owners looking to combine these solutions for their sim racing motion experience. Looking forward to seeing everyone's input on getting the most out of this setup. Feel free to leave suggestion, questions, settings and profiles and anything in between. The other threads are huge now and have a lot of discussion, let's get this one up there, too!

 

[sebna]

I would combine the GS-5 seat but it's going to run me around double what I can sell the V3 for.

So, with it being nearly 2 years old already, I'm not overly concerned with the warranty application. I already run around half the throw on the platform as it is now and once it's combined with the SFX-100 I won't need some of the effects I use now, either.

I'd be worried if it wasn't such a sturdy piece of hardware. Obviously we will be running a risk as the platform wasn't designed for this but I've also seen people running full platforms on top of the V3 so it's not something that's likely to easily break. I guess if something is going to happen, then one of us will be the unfortunate test dummy. With all of us already owning the V3 to begin with, it's not like we really planned for this setup from the outset.

I've yet to try the platforms combined. I am just becoming accustomed to the awesome feeling of a sprung chassis with the SFX-100 and quite liking everything I am feeling without the V3 even turned on. I may choose to move it on in the end, or I may choose to keep it. Either way, I would love to try a G seat but the cost is a fair bit more than I was hoping for. Combine that with import duties, tax and a large shipping bill and it's just not a smart purchase for me.

Yet.

I hope that GS-5 price will drop in maybe a year time? when the initial demand will be met and production will ramp-up.

ATM the price is quite prohibitive for us in EU due to extra costs involved not to mention the hefty base price.

Especially when SFX-100 is around for half if not less of the total cost of GS-5 (shipped etc.)

Cheers

 

[Steve D]

While I admire the ambition of combining these two pieces of technology, I'd be pretty concerned about damaging the Next Level V3. Mounting the V3 on the SFX means there's a lot of extra kinetic energy that's being transferred to the V3 seat mover, and it certainly wasn't designed with this sort of application in mind. I understand there's the upcoming traction+ module for the V3, but the motion on that seems pretty tame compared to something like the SFX-100. At the very least, I'd be willing to bet that this sort of combination would void the warranty on the V3 - although I suppose you could always lie about how it was damaged.

There's a good chance that everything would be perfectly fine, but still, I personally wouldn't want to risk the very real chance of damage to a $3000 piece of equipment. I have a Prosimu T1000, and I plan to eventually combine it with Simxperience's upcoming GS-5 seat. To me, this seems like a much more sensible (and safe) way to achieve simulated surge/sway on a full platform mover. However, to each their own, and I'd certainly be interested in seeing some video of these two motion systems in concert.

You make a valid point for sure and I certainly had my 'eyes wide open' when I made the decision to leave the seat mover in-situ with the chassis motion so that I could properly test the SFX-100 / NLRV3 combo. The GS-5 may well be the Holy Grail and the best solution but I've no experience whatsoever of what that offers and it costs a significant chunk of change as well. I'm also not looking for perfection in terms of realism, just as much immersion and enjoyment as I can get out of the toys I have.

FWIW though and in an effort to mitigate the forces that might break the V3, firstly, the seat mover has been fitted as low as possible inside my P1, rather than on top and that has the affect, I suppose, of reducing the potential throw due to it's lower COG with me in the seat. Secondly the V3 motion cues I'm most interested in now, (primarily for braking) mirror the pitch of the SFX-100 and there is also no lag between platforms so, in terms of motion delivery, they move in tandem. It also has to be said that I'm pretty sympathetic anyway where both motion platforms are concerned. Indeed I've really dialed down the Next Level settings so that the cues I receive are still noticeable, (I'd miss them otherwise) but do not drown out the detail being generated by the actuators. That's an easy mistake to make. I'm also not necessarily interested in cranking up the intensity to high levels within Simfeedback. I'm in the early days of experimenting and very 'green' but the software seems so adjustable that, from what I can tell, changing one thing doesn't change the characteristics of the other motion effects. As a result I can build in a degree of mechanical sympathy without compromising my enjoyment or immersion plus the V3 still offers an additional and complimentary level of feedback on top.

For example yesterday I downloaded an SFX RaceRoom profile specific to DTM, which @HoiHman created. It felt so right that I could have lost myself at Spa for hours. However the feedback from the bumpy parts of the track was a bit too much for me. A couple of adjustments later and voila, I could still feel the track detail and any losses were offset, to some extent, by the feedback being generated by the V3. I didn't feel I was missing anything.

So hopefully, the Next Level product will stand up to the abuse I am throwing at it but only time will tell.

So far though, so epic and I'll enjoy the ride whilst it lasts.

 

[Lasagna Smoothie]

It sounds like everyone here has the situation under control. As I said, there's a good chance that nothing will go wrong and everything will work in concert perfectly. I briefly owned a V2 seat mover, so I certainly know it's a heavy duty piece of equipment. It also sounds like everyone here is taking smart steps to mitigate any potential damage to their seat movers. Finally, I totally understand the high cost of picking up a GS-5. I live in the United States, so it's not so bad for me, but I'll certainly be waiting for a sale nonetheless. I wish the very best of luck to everyone in this thread.

 

[HoiHman]

Don't forget guys Next Level Racing has confirmed there should no issue running the NLMv3 on top of a Dbox style rig.

Aaarh...... , i should stop reading this topic

 

[Lasagna Smoothie]

Don't forget guys Next Level Racing has confirmed there should no issue running the NLMv3 on top of a Dbox style rig.

Aaarh...... , i should stop reading this topic

If that's the case, then anyone reading can go ahead and disregard my prior warning.

 

[Mascot]

I'll be keeping my NLMv3 where it is when I mount the SFX100 actuators, but I kind of wish I didn't have to so I could sell it on and sleep easier at night with fewer guiltmares.

 

[anton_Chez]

How's everyone getting on with their settings and profile side of things? I've just recently changed the driver settings to 3000rpm and I also reduced the smoothing to 22. I think that was a mistake. I can't believe how harsh the ride is even with MAX smoothing in both the Heave settings AND in the Overall Smoothing slider setting. It's just so hard! I could reduce the Intensity of the Heave, I have not tried that yet. What I have done is gone back to the drivers and changed the Smoothing to the stock value of 30 as recommended in the wiki. I am going to try that a little later with the rpm still at 3000 and see if it changes anything. The first profile I tried with these settings was Henk's DTM Raceroom profile and I thought that he was a madman! Turns out even with the default stock Raceroom settings, the ride is just as harsh, with not as pronounced Pitch and Roll. In other words, more headache and less of the fun stuff!

I'll get back with my findings on the Smoothing value being changed in the drivers. Maybe some others can report what they are finding with their own experimentation of the software. I haven't even turned the V3 on while driving with the actuators yet. I have however been driving in VR and it's awesome that I am having NONE of the issues that @Steve D was finding with his sensors and USB drama. My Arduino has not dropped out once after I discovered that having it plugged into a USB 2.0 port was the key to keeping it happy.

 

[Mascot]

Is your sensor fixed or rig-mounted, Anton?

 

[Steve D]

Hi Anton,

I’m running rpm at 3,000 and smoothing at 22 and using the default profiles at the mo or should I say copies of them.

However for AC, Raceroom and rF2, I am running at reduced intensity both at the overall level and within the individual effects and in combo with the V3, I’m pretty happy with the results, am still getting great detail and i’m not experiencing the harshness you speak of. Saying that I’ve not spent any time yet playing around and experimenting with the software properly and I’m sure there is a ton of adjustability to be had within that. For example I saw a brief comment recently that Min and Max Speed were important variables in tuning the suspension characteristics, between soft and hard settings, which would be useful when creating profiles for different cars / classes. Will check that out later to see if that’s accuarate.

What I will say is that, like the V3, settings will be personal to the individual and that there is no right or wrong, Henk’s R3E DTM profile being a case in point, although at reduced intensity I thought it was bloody epic at Spa. I might not be getting the most out of the SFX100 by dialling things down as it stands but my level of immersion has still increased considerably albeit the contribution of the seat mover still remains a big part of that.

Early days mate and lots to learn.

 

[HoiHman]

Anton, before changing the smoothing in the driver back to 30, try to reduce the max and min speed setting on the top right of the profile.

That's the setting that determines how hard the movements are felt. Smoothing is all about detail.

Regarding my DTM profile. The goal of the profile was to get extra feedback from raceroom as we all know this title lacks road detail compared to others. In order to get this extra feedback i added an extra layer of heave, with short and fast movements.

If it's too hard for you, just turn down the overall intensity on the top left of the profile to 50%.

As long as you stay on the track, the DTM profile is pretty good, but it's definitely not meant to go off, because then you will experience heavy motion.

 

[anton_Chez]

Nice advice guys, thank you. I was going to try the Min and Max speed settings but I didn't. I think I am placing the culpability of the harshness with the wrong setting. I'll change them back now and play with the other settings. As you've said Henk, it's better to have the drivers at the most raw settings and then tune through the software instead of missing things by leaving them at a higher smoothing setting and not getting the full value out of it. I agreed with that, but found that setting Smoothing at MAX still didn't help the cause which is why I went back and changed the settings at the hardware level. Clearly I was looking in the wrong place.

Also, I gather that the Smoothing setting in the individual effects still applies to that effect even if you have the global Smoothing value unchecked?

 

[anton_Chez]

@Mascot I currently have the sensor sitting on one of my bookshelf speakers on my desk. My rig is right next to it. I will try mounted to the chassis but I fear that if I stick it to the monitor there's so much wobble in it that I will have very bad tracking and viewpoint shifting. If I do it I'll need to mount it to a hard fixing point.

On another note, I am going to try to get my seat and therefore the V3 a little lower in the chassis. I can remove the seat mount railing from the GT1 cockpit because now that the actuators are there the V3 has more room underneath to go lower. If I can manage to also remove the profile I am using to bridge the gap in the seat mounting holes I will gain 80mm into the cockpit. It's being discussed on Discord that the lower you can get your seat the better feeling the actuators give which makes sense.

 

[Mr Latte]

When a user has went with using just the SFX via the typical build method, then adds a VR3.

Can I ask how has this affected the positional representation of L-R bumps in the seat?
Does the universal ball joint, physically not restrict L/R positional bump sensations to operate only as mixed-mono bump sensations now going into the entire seat?

I think the brain can be fooled with the motion tilting and the onscreen action, users steering with even a mono based bump trick/convince the brain into thinking the sensation is from a specific side. Or do you lose, in some degree the sense of greater channel separation or positional placement?

Would it be fair to say that it seems, what this is doing then brings superb positional based body motion but then restricts the seat to having mono based, non-directional vibrations from the chassis?

Just would like to hear some peoples thoughts on this from actual testing, in what tests they did or what they discovered with before and after VR3 installation.

 

[Mascot]

@Mascot I currently have the sensor sitting on one of my bookshelf speakers on my desk. My rig is right next to it. I will try mounted to the chassis but I fear that if I stick it to the monitor there's so much wobble in it that I will have very bad tracking and viewpoint shifting. If I do it I'll need to mount it to a hard fixing point.

This might be where HMDs with inside-out tracking have an advantage over external sensor-based ones.

 

[anton_Chez]

Reducing the Min and Max speeds does play a big role in how the ride feels, in a brute force kind of way. I was running with no global Smoothing on and no Heave smoothing, as the original profile has it set, with 100 Intensity. By reducing Min Speed to 25 and Max Speed to 100 the ride is a much calmer and believable drive in a GT3 car. I think AC has a more conservative stock profile and this is what I used the first time. I'll try the DTM profile again and I'm sure I'll have a much nicer time with it compared to the last time. Instead of maxing Smoothing and dropping the Intensity to 50 I'll adjust the Min and Max speeds and I'm sure I'll get a better gamut of sensation throughout the car.

 

[HoiHman]

Nice advice guys, thank you. I was going to try the Min and Max speed settings but I didn't. I think I am placing the culpability of the harshness with the wrong setting. I'll change them back now and play with the other settings. As you've said Henk, it's better to have the drivers at the most raw settings and then tune through the software instead of missing things by leaving them at a higher smoothing setting and not getting the full value out of it. I agreed with that, but found that setting Smoothing at MAX still didn't help the cause which is why I went back and changed the settings at the hardware level. Clearly I was looking in the wrong place.

Also, I gather that the Smoothing setting in the individual effects still applies to that effect even if you have the global Smoothing value unchecked?

Yes you can have up to 3 layers of smoothing

1. In the motor driver
2. Global smoothing in the profile which applies to all effects
3. Individual smoothing per effect

 

[anton_Chez]

I've not tried the V3 yet as I am trying to learn SimFeedback and what I am able to do with it before mixing in a known quantity in the V3.

What I can say about the actuators is that it really does feel like there are wheels attached to the chassis. When your rear right for example is up on the curb you can feel exactly what's happening. It's not like vibrations or tactile where the feeling can be 'lost' through to other parts of the chassis. Motion is on a whole other level to tactile in positional feedback. People that have not used the V3 with rF2, for example, would be shocked to feel individual left right rumble strip feedback coming through their rear ends, as in, ass. I don't know how it does it but recently some of us had that feeling of 'hey, that wasn't there before...'. That's the motor shaking at a high velocity, much like an impact driver, rather than vibrations in the way normal tactile is thought of.

 

[Mr Latte]

I've not tried the V3 yet as I am trying to learn SimFeedback and what I am able to do with it before mixing in a known quantity in the V3.

What I can say about the actuators is that it really does feel like there are wheels attached to the chassis. When your rear right for example is up on the curb you can feel exactly what's happening. It's not like vibrations or tactile where the feeling can be 'lost' through to other parts of the chassis. Motion is on a whole other level to tactile in positional feedback. People that have not used the V3 with rF2, for oming through their rear ends, as in, ass. I don't know how it does it but recently some of us had that feeling of 'hey, that wasn't there before...'. That's the motor shaking at a high velocity, much like an impact driver, rather than vibrations in the way normal tactile is thought of.

It would be good for you to do positional tests with kerbs,chicanes or other track sections, then to get your views how different such may feel when you add the VR3. You don't need to take into account other tactile, so forget it. I just want to hear what the SFX offers or indeed the VR3 if combined.

My point is a real car does not have its seat mounted via a universal joint, clearly the vibrational energy per wheel/suspension are positional to each corner. The SFX offers superb and powerful representation of this, from reading peoples comments of it.

What I am querying is how its possible to still feel the vibration energy per wheel/suspension come from its original placement when the universal joint centralizes how a seat is connected to the chassis? If we lose this directional vibrational positioning when adding a VR3 then does or can it be possible to have the SFX operate bumps/vibrations in a mono based operation over, all 4 units, (not per wheel) if so then how does that compare?

It may be that some prefer to have the added motion (Via VR3) in what it brings, even at the cost of losing immersion for positional vibration/energy sensation? From what I see, a VR3 then limits positional vibrations in what the SFX offers to the pedal section and then only mono vibrations for the seat.

 

[anton_Chez]

I think you fail to realise that not every movement and piece of information comes through the seat mount of the platform. The movement that dipping one actuator creates doesn't need to be felt through the seat at all. That said, the V3 still has separated LR effects where certain curbs are considered and Steve can attest to feeling these in rF2 also.

We don't need a unit strapped to every part of our body while driving to get a sense for where the movement is coming from and how your inputs cause or react to it. Even more so because we are now removing over half of what the V3 platform is capable of because we now have a system combined with it that naturally does those things better. I think the biggest thing that people who have never experienced at least these 2 motion platform solutions misunderstand is how natural everything feels. You have a lot of freedom with improvements in software capabilities to create the feeling you like which might give different results. For me, I'm never thinking about the platform and my brain always accepts the movement that I have going on as a natural response to driving.

Which is amazing and how it should be. For instance, when using tactile for road texture and even bumps, it always felt like something was banging around under my feet. Not in a natural way. Granted that may be the unit choice, tuning or mounting, but I always felt it wasn't genuine. Never have that feeling with the V3 and especially with the SFX-100 especially since I tuned my post process settings in profiles.

 

[anton_Chez]

Anyone playing around with tactile and rumble features in SimFeedback can you post some findings and thoughts once you've had enough time with it? I'm going to dive into that at some stage this weekend.

I've mentioned in the main thread that I've finally tried the platforms in tandem. Initial thoughts are super positive although I am still in learning mode for tuning so it should only improve. I removed everything except for Sway and Surge from V3 profiles.