PC1 Project CARS is very good SIM

Hey,

I have been sim racing since my 16 (now 28), TOCA Race driver, richard burns rally with my brand new Logitech Momo, I have played almost all race/rally game out there.
Rfactor, GTR 1/2, Race 07, all the colin, GT Legends, F1 2010-2011, IRacing, you name it.

I have bought rFactor 2 and CARS, and I have to say they bought feel realy good, but the looks and sound of CARS are amazing! Its almost like real.
What I also like is that every week you get a new build and its is better and better each time.

Believe me its becoming the best sim game out there ever!

If you like to drive on pc and have a good wheel just try it your self, its only 10€ for Junior memeber ship, thats cheap : http://forum.wmdportal.com/toolpacks.php

http://forum.wmdportal.com/toolpacks.php
 
pCARS is a simcade, just like GT and Forza, it isn't arcade but it also not a hardcore simulator like the ones i mentioned. It's something teenagers will jump onto after finishing the latest NFS. Flashy graphics, cool cars. But lacking fidelity. That's how you define a sim, how close to the real counter-part can the car behave, this includes general handling but also all the feedback a real car would give you. This is where REAL sims excel and where pCARS sucks so much.

You can cough up definitions of simulation all day, it's useless and so stupid it makes me wonder if you're trolling or not. Is NFS a coin operated amusement arcade ? No. Then it's clearly a simulator. You see, you keep bringing idiotic arguments.

You made an account here just the defend your dear simcade, looking at your comments you only posted on the pCARS threads, mr fanboy.

More inflammatory arguments doing little to no good for anyone. Why the harsh attacking words rather than just stating your point?

Many of us believe that a simulation is not defined by how good every feature is in it. There are sims you will like and there are sims you will not... but not liking it does not mean it isn't a simulation. If a title is trying hard to simulate actual physics but isn't quite as good as the best on the market, does that mean it isn't a sim? Does that mean iRacing isn't a sim because I think RF2 or GSC2012 has better physics? Again, many of us would say no, it just means iRacing's physics are not the best on the market.

If I don't like the handling feel of a real world c4 Corvette, does that mean it isn't a sports car?

People belittle Forza and GT as not sims compared to PC titles but you could do the same thing to any PC title you choose depending on what features you are comparing. "Only RF2 has tracks that rubber in so no other pc titles are sims" "No pc title punishes you financially like real racing does when you wreck your car so no PC title is actually a sim" " If you use a non-load cell brake pedal you are not a simracer because real brake pedals don't work like Logitech ones" Do you see that your logic can be taken anywhere? It is arbitrary (and insulting) to say I don't like the handling feel or FFB so this title isn't a sim. Instead... just say I don't like the handling feel in pCars. That doesn't insult and is a personal opinion that really can't be argued with.
 
Oh, c´mon now you sum up all sorts of far- fetched arguments. I agree that some folks here go a bit far with their coments, but...c´moooon.
1. If someone has no loadcell pedals it doesn´t mean he can´t buy some in the future. If the sim per se has no code that can depict certain car behaviour you wont have any possibility to add this feature later on via addon. Thats a huge difference. I think thats one point that some people (me included) are a bit nervous about with PCARS. One has to be allowed to raise this concern.
2. People got agravated about PCARS because it was called a sim and after it took so long for them to develop a better FFB plus the misbehaviour of some PCARS members on this forum the discussion got all heated up.What has happened happened. Some people are very resentful on both sites.

Its hard to draw a line on when or where a game becomes a sim but I think we all can agree that it should at least meet the qualities of older sims as a minimum. Since I was born at the Nordschleife me and my friends are really into driving cars at the limit. Its just the main thing for people up here. Many of those people tested PCARS at my home and the critics were devastating on the force feedback. In fact they liked everything else about PCARS even the sound although they hadn´t had the chance to listen to the newer sounds that are even better.
Calling people trolls is a cheap trick that gets old pretty quick. You can come up to my town and call people trolls and they wouldn´t even know what you want from them since they just state their opinions.
I´m a "fanboy" for racing cars. I´m not into motorsports. I buy those games in hope to get the best immersion via FFB and so long I only had this feeling with GTR Evolution, LFS and now AC.
This weeks tests at WMD show that these guys are hard working, intelligent people who want to take simracing to another level. But on the other hand we have to be fair and say that they might started a bit late for some people that now turned their back. I payed a fair price and am happy to give those guys the time they estimated. I mean, they have seen that the old tiremodels has to go. I respect that a lot. But on the other side we cannot forget that a reasonable ammount of people act as "customers" towards this project and not as "contractors" as Ian Bell wants them to be. Thats the difference between formal and informal dynamics of corporate culture. This being said I´m happy to witness this process which you hardly ever can observe from an etic perspective.
 
It is arbitrary (and insulting) to say I don't like the handling feel or FFB so this title isn't a sim. Instead... just say I don't like the handling feel in pCars.

No it's not arbitrary. If i compare pCARS's FFB and the handling to other sims it's just bad, the feedback isn't there, there is no weight transfer, the car behaves strangely, the brakes don't act like they should, to much lateral grip, no precision when steering etc. These are all facts, there is NOTHING arbitrary in this, i take other simulators, and i compare different aspects, and these things come up missing in pCARS. You try to make it sound that just because i don't like it (never said that) it's not a sim, no, it's not a sim because it does alot of things wrong that for a sim are an essential requirement. And then the likes of you come here telling me that it is one.
 
Not posting to get in to this discussion just observing a fact.

Looks like pCARS is in the FIRST test for "car+tire+track combination".

CPFT, Week 1, BMW Z4 GT3, Wisconsin


"Testing Notes:
Use only the GT Slick - GreenFlash tire. It is applied to the car by default. Please give the default setup a dozen laps or so to get a baseline feedback to report. Weapons free on changing setup after that. Let us know what works, what doesn't and what seems to go against normal logic. Wisconsin tends to be a compromise track; you're as likely to turn a quick lap with a low-downforce setup as medium or even medium-high, so it should be a good testing ground for different setup types. One of the goals this week was to get the tire somewhere between the 505? tire which everyone said understeered too much and the 511? tire which swung the pendulum too far to oversteer. Other things we're interested in, in no particular order:

-How does it feel over the course of a full tank run? Is the performance drop-off/change in balance believable?
-Is temperature management of the tires more easily achieved? What about from a cold start? (let the car sit for 10 minutes to get ambient temperature tires)
-What kind of tire temperatures are you seeing over the course of a few consistent laps? Please include a brief description of your driving style and lap times.
-What is the effect of the usual setup exploits - min/max camber, min tire pressure? And can you find any new setups which appear to be exploits."


Today's patch apparently broke tire temp calculations.

"Fix for tire cooling is checked in now. What happened was the original carcass heating code was backwards, so for the tire data I just used a negative number. The code got fixed without matching data change today so what you all got was cooling from carcass deformation. Will be better tomorrow.

Also put a new default setup on the car - essentially the same as I used to turn a 2:06.2 - and dropped the FFB tire force multiplier by half to reduce clipping. Check back with the car tomorrow and let us know what you think of the mid-test updates."

This highlights that it may be a little premature to have any GENERAL
opinion on FFB in pCARS.

(As a side note, not driving pCars much at the moment, OVAL cars is currently broken, no grip at all, but was good some time ago, will get back when someone has some love for the OVAL car again.)

 
ONT's post reflects what is happening on the wmd forums on a daily basis since day one, some others here paint an entirely different picture.
I see normal game development, sure some have had a bumpy ride with wmd but only a few know the full details.

What if they are in some way successful in bringing true simulation to the console market, multiplayer cross platform racing anyone?
Gran Turismo for PC?
Bigger funding because of a larger target audience?
More developers taking this route, inviting you to watch and input on the process?
Read ONT's post, looks like they are trying and that is only a fraction of what is going on at WMD.
 
I am also observing a blunt no sugar coated reaction from members and pros when things are not working as intended.




Post today from one of the Community Ambassador

quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Casey Ringley

Yes this will be an issue today. There was a fix to carcass heating code but the data now doesn't match so it will be acting to cool the tires instead. Fix will be checked in for tomorrow's build.


"Good. Not going crazy.

What's up with the FFB..? I get 1/8th turn on the wheel, default everything. I can get to like the 2 o'clock position if I play with the default or use my old rack set up.

New everything file wise, first tests with no FFB files in place.

We just went through all the "way too light in the center", finally got a nice solid feel and smooth turning arc... And now today it's all gone. I have a dead zone the size of Rhode Island.

I then have a really nice feel and ramp up... Till an 1/8 way in on the wheel.

First noticed this with the Kart's tweak file, now it's infested everything.

It acts like a sine wave, it builds up, reaches it's peak 1/8th of the wheel turn in and then a loss of everything. No scrub, no skitter, no grip, just a lot of noise and skating away. I've always had the wheel allow me to set 90-0-90 for any car and have that 90 be really loaded up at the limit. Cars that couldn't handle that much turn in let me know by over loading and then chattering or really scrubbing speed and screaming as they tried to grip and deal with me turning too hard.

Today it feels like we're beta testing the new Forza 5... It feels like the old -BTM and Forza 4 washouts past anything the car couldn't handle. It wasn't pretty.

I've had solid FFB for months now, today was a just wasting time trying everything and anything to get rid of that awful wave and fade into nothingness.

Another new FFB experience made it's appearance as well with the Front going light on throttle... Nice effect. Feeling the front go light on throttle in the Lotus was pretty cool, almost expected even.

Except for the part where it acts the same way in every car no matter what the set up and doesn't change dimension more than a fraction when you do anything to control weight balance. The FFB of that shift is the nigh the same whether running 50/200 Springs or 200/50 Springs, rear engine, mid engine or Kart. It was in fact the most thing consistent in the FFB other than the hump.

There was no change in the kick out in the back end of the 49 or the Capri, same as it ever was. Once it's made up it's mind, it's going. The FFB made it nearly impossible to read as the lift and wave were constantly moving.

The Lotus feels 100% better on default now though on the grey matter. It was pretty controllable. I could generate the same confidence in it with a few minor tweaks as opposed to a complete rewrite of the set up, and the lap times were in the ballpark so I know I didn't lose anything in the process. It does feel like it has that slickery grass heightened sensitivity about it again, though with the light front and the loss of FFB past anything called "medium corner" it was hard to tell. The

Z4 by comparison almost felt arcade off track. Drop to 2nd, drive off the grass better than in a gravel trap. That was a bit unexpected, I was liking having to work for it just a little bit to get back to the good stuff. The FFB made the car weave back and forth on braking and the Aero was acting weird. Given the tire issues, I just put that one away for the day.

Kart now not only pushes, but goes light anytime throttle's on so you get a double whammy of "notFFB" feel. It doesn't feel like anything has changes except adding that annoying FFB hump and washout. I swapped Ron's tune into the cart and had the same feel as mine... I'd have expected to feel less lift in front given his front soft rear stiff set up.

Have to say, whatever got done the last couple days has taken away a huge chunk of reality in my world, nothing feels like it should...

The 40 Tire Force was a good number for the CSR, I felt I had plenty of contact when I had it. Was nice to have the headroom to kick it up a bit if I want to and have it be gradual. Even ran it up to 100, it was heavy but not overpowering. The hump and washout became far more evident though. I settled on 50, just a slight bit heavier on the default.

On that screen, there's a bug that's been happening for awhile now... Every time I go into it all the dead zones, the wheel speed sensitivity and steer numbers will drop by 1. The arrow keys set up of counting by 6 makes it a pin to set things as well, 5 would be much nicer. Or 2 even. 6 is too big a number and the mouse doesn't always allow me to get a number, just a few on either side. Now that everything is changing, this screen is getting more attention. Be a time saver to not have to mess with it trying to get a correct value.

Cheers..!"
 
Sounds more like a bug, which is this kind of testing good at to detect. Now of course someone has to find out wether it actually is a bug of some sort, or not. Thinks like reversed heating can happen especially without the time to test things properly beforehand.
 
Yeah i've seen posts like this for over year. Devs don't care and won't change anything based on that comment because that's not where the problem comes from, they f*cked up something while coding and they know it. Frankly i feel they tried to hard and now are stuck in this tyre mess, where nothing adds up.

It's been like this since the project started, it's no bug, it's the sum of bad coding over the time which is messing up everything. Remember how they just covered up the "ants" bug ? Yeah well, be sure that will show up sooner or later.
 
Can you prove this bad coding?
Not to me because I would have no idea what I would be looking for.
I am of the opinion that I could agree with you, I would put it a different way, simple tweaking is not the answer to all the problems. This is just an uneducated opinion based on what I feel with pcars that is now over a month old, a guess.
I would normally keep this to myself because, what do I know, I can prove none of my opinion.
To you it is clearly broken, to me and others it is clearly in development.
 
It's apparent you've invested yourself in this "it's broken" meme. It's complete crap though.

AJ is an exceptionally gifted engineer and we're lucky to have him. The devs take very seriously all the feedback from members and Nic/Ben. People who have never accomplished a monumental engineering feat can certainly make claims that the process is taking too long and that regardless of the time investment it'll never amount to anything. This is because they've never accomplished anything even remotely on this scale.

But do keep it coming though. I don't think the devs need any additional motivation, but it does provide some comic relief. I enjoy it because it's going to make the game release even more fun for me. Many good things are coming in the game. Some will lack patience for the process to run it's course. That won't matter though.
 
TL;DR

I don't care what you have to say Mica$, you're just posting to protect your investment. You and my cat both have pretty much the same credibility regarding pCARS around here, so if you would kindly disappear you would make us all a favor.

It surprises me you didn't get banned here also, is RD not sick of you yet ? Those at NoGrip sure had enough of your nonsense.
 
No it's not arbitrary. If i compare pCARS's FFB and the handling to other sims it's just bad, the feedback isn't there, there is no weight transfer, the car behaves strangely, the brakes don't act like they should, to much lateral grip, no precision when steering etc. These are all facts, there is NOTHING arbitrary in this, i take other simulators, and i compare different aspects, and these things come up missing in pCARS. You try to make it sound that just because i don't like it (never said that) it's not a sim, no, it's not a sim because it does alot of things wrong that for a sim are an essential requirement. And then the likes of you come here telling me that it is one.

First, it is hard to believe you have played it lately with the remarks you are making. Unless you are picking one of the few cars that are mostly there graphically but have not been worked on with tires/default set-up.

There is force feedback and it is improving, even in just the last few weeks. It may not be to your liking but you can feel the weight of the car more now, the wheel goes light when the rear end does and when grip catches you feel weight return-- as an example. Is pcars FFB the best available? No, I don't think so, but it is making clear strides forward on the cars that have been advanced in recent weeks/months and I think it has the potential to end up very well.

Too much lateral grip? On what car?? Not the 98T. Not the 49. Not the Hyuara. Not the SLS. Not the Atom V8. I admit some cars had/have too much grip but much of that has changed significantly in recent months with the new tires. A notorious offender I commented on was the 78. But a few weeks ago they sorted that out and you can now, at last, get the rear end loose and spin if not careful with the throttle. Before you could only do that on the grass with the 78. Now you can on track and the car feels much more alive. Not perfect maybe but a big improvement. Last I checked the M3 GT4 was still way too planted (and others may be too) but the M3GT's rear end has come alive nicely along with the Z4GT3. Some cars, like the Zonda R, were recently identified by myself and others as having become an over-steering nightmare with recent changes-- too much for the car. Feedback was taken and it was put on the agenda to be corrected. Over-steer and how it is handled is actually an area of significant strength, in my opinion, for pCars. But as in all of these areas, we need to wait until we see final cars dialed in to know if the end product will still suit our tastes.

No weight transfer? OK, this is not pcars strong suit. I agree with that. But you can both see and feel it now... in some cars more than others. Hyuara and SLS come quickly to mind as decent examples. I am not sure how good this criteria will get but I have seen/felt some progress.

Braking behavior? It is true that the brakes lock up way too quickly and the consequences are too severe on some cars. This is not universal across all cars but was crazy on the Zonda R I just mentioned and some others too. But other cars have relatively stable braking with some lock up possible. And in those cars the FFB effect on lock up is actually very good.

No precision when steering? On what car? Cars like the M3GT4, which the default set-up is still just really bad, can feel pretty poor in precision-- I agree with that. Others like the RUF that haven't been worked on at all are in the same boat. But the 78 and 49 aren't like that. Neither is the M3GT or Z4GT3. The Hyuara might feel that way if you are on the power too much as it currently oversteers quite easily but you can hit your apexes with some right foot restraint. I think the Atoms need more precision (at least last time I drove them) but the lower power open wheel cars are plenty accurate on turn in last time I drove them. So are the Asanos. I could see someone arguing this area is not to their liking as personal preference here is probably wide-- just as it is with real cars.

I won't address "the car behaves strangely" as there is little insight given. But just about every title has it's quirks... particularly at low speeds.

I like your criteria for evaluating the quality of a sim. There are certainly other areas to be considered for sure but I like the ones you've chosen. And of course it is fine if you evaluate it poorly--horses for courses. To evaluate quality is one thing, to use the subjective evaluation to then dismiss the thing from even being a sim, is another. And I still find that arbitrary as well as insulting for the dozens of employees who are working hard to build a simulation and the community that is trying to contribute where they can.

On top of that, recent builds, when tested with a wide variety of cars, just do not show pcars to be poor across the board in all these features. Yes, there are better sims out there in some of the areas but they are further along in development or finished products. In the end, no title will be the best at every feature of a sim. Competition precludes that. How many features will pCars get onto the podium? Only time will tell.
 
Got a little time to drive pCARS version 527, the cars that is in the focus for tire temp testing.

CPFT, Week 1, BMW Z4 GT3, Wisconsin

"BMW Z4 GT3 at Wisconsin
Use only the GT Slick - GreenFlash tire. It is applied to the car by default. Please give the default setup a dozen laps or so to get a baseline feedback to report. Weapons free on changing setup after that. Let us know what works, what doesn't and what seems to go against normal logic. Wisconsin tends to be a compromise track; you're as likely to turn a quick lap with a low-downforce setup as medium or even medium-high, so it should be a good testing ground for different setup types. One of the goals this week was to get the tire somewhere between the 505? tire which everyone said understeered too much and the 511? tire which swung the pendulum too far to oversteer. Other things we're interested in, in no particular order:

-How does it feel over the course of a full tank run? Is the performance drop-off/change in balance believable?
-Is temperature management of the tires more easily achieved? What about from a cold start? (let the car sit for 10 minutes to get ambient temperature tires)
-What kind of tire temperatures are you seeing over the course of a few consistent laps? Please include a brief description of your driving style and lap times.
-What is the effect of the usual setup exploits - min/max camber, min tire pressure? And can you find any new setups which appear to be exploits.

Most of all have fun and let us know anything and everything you think about the car+tire+track combination. Starting target time is a 2:08.3 on default setup.
smile.png


NB: This car runs with TC and ABS in real life. Don't be afraid to use it when testing.


CPFT, Week 2, Pagani Zonda R, Bologna

Pagani Zonda R at Bologna.



This car is not easy to drive at 100%. 1:50 is an easy laptime at Bologna, 1:44 is probably manageable for most. Getting that last 10% is a lot of work. It is massively overpowered for the grip available. If you have a trouble getting a handle on it, I would recommend turning the air restrictor size down to 40mm or less to cut some power for training. This will tame the car and let you get a better feel on how it handles certain situations without overreacting to your throttle inputs. And 600hp is still quite a lot where I come from. At that power level it actually reminds me of the Maserati MC12 from GTR2, which isn't a bad thing at all in my opinion. Driving it at full power is like Lotus 49 in a way; it arrives at corners so much faster than you expect that braking points feel too early, cornering speeds feel too slow. Try it at Wisconsin and compare your entry speeds to the Z4 GT3 from CPFT Week 1

There is a tendency to lift-off oversteer in mid-corner which has to be balanced using throttle. This seems to be a quirk of the suspension design as much as setup. I haven't successfully tuned around it yet.

I think the default setup can be improved still, so let's work on finding something comfortable without being slow. It tends to understeer, but that's just the nature of this beast from what I can see. There is a 47/53 weight distribution split and similar aero, but the tire split is 43/57. It really is all about keeping that 730HP under control. Let's see what you all can come up with to improve the setup.

Benchmark time for Bologna: 1:40.0"




Feels like both cars has improved, default FFB is still clipping for me on a G25,
using FFB 100 and Tire force 45 works on my end :)





Ford Carpi Group 5 has also improved.
 
They've improved but still a way off where they need to be, the FFB is still poor and lacks rear end feel and weight shift like it always has. All I seem to see is changes to car setups and slight tweaks to the tyres, what's required is fundamental changes to the physics engine/code to get the cars to handle and feel more convincing.
 
I think but may be wrong that pCARS stripped all but geometry input from front end long time ago to isolate FFB function.

Not so sure You feel much of weight transfer and rear "feel" in steering column in RL.

They may be factors that has to make it's way in to the sim at some point.

Just like exaggerated tire squeal and other non RL features are helpful in a sim to fill the gaps we see from lack of the physical input on a driver in RL.


I did a ride along "Richard Petty Driving Experience" at the Las Vegas track this spring and I would say going 180 mph around the track in RL is a little different than my years of racing OVAL cars in iRacing.

It was one of the most intense things I have ever done, and I did not hold the wheel :)
(Parachuted for 10 years, worked with extreme skiing in Chamonix back in the 80s, ride MX
and did a lot of rock climbing in the 90s)


 
I think but may be wrong that pCARS stripped all but geometry input from front end long time ago to isolate FFB function.

Not so sure You feel much of weight transfer and rear "feel" in steering column in RL.

They may be factors that has to make it's way in to the sim at some point.

That't the point, if it's just geometry/rack then certain forces should be felt acting on the steering column and felt via FFB in certain situations but some are not coming through.

All I feel with pcars FFB is bumps and the the level of tyre grip; when tyre grip reduces the wheel just goes light, it doesn't feel like rack based forces. Even if the car is loaded up on one side with the back swinging out the steering wheel doesn't pull into the slide like can be felt in reality and other sim titles, it just goes limp and springs to center.
 
The steering wheel going light is correct behaviour but what irritates me is the fact that it always feels the same. What I mean is with a real car this "going light" is the transition between static friction and sliding friction. But this changes with the manner you throw your car into the corner. Factors like steering angle, speed, etc are what change this feeling.
What annoys me the most is that the cars just change behaviour of how they go into the corner as soon as you fall below a certain cornering speed. For me it feels like the car is hijacked by a script forcing it to steer with the rear achsis for no apparent reason. Its like in consoles where the game says "here comes a corner, now the car must be assisted cornering this bend." A car doesn´t behave like this. I think its the griplevel that jumps back to full grip at once maybe.
 
I'ts hard to tell what is going on without a specific car and build nr mentioned.

The car I drive most CAPER OVAL went from way to much grip to pretty good and then to no grip at all within 10-15 builds.

One thing I see a lot of problem with is FFB clipping, it will distort all FFB info.

Setting the FFB to 100 and tire force to 45 fix most but not all cars.

Using the sine curve in telemetry screen for each car is the best method.

I have argued in numerous threads on WMD to get a simpler FFB clipping meter in HUD
like the one in netKarPRO.

I would dare to say that over 90% of all comments here AND on the pCARS forum is based on
clipping (distorted) FFB signal to wheel.

If you run a G25 and use default settings You have maybe 2-3 cars in game that is not clipping,
and only on some specific tracks.

The sine curve is way to hard for most to read, a simple bar that turns RED when clipping FTW.

Something in this style.

led-vu-meter-2-2-s-307x512.jpg
 

Latest News

What is the reason for your passion for sim racing?

  • Watching real motorsport

    Votes: 437 69.6%
  • Physics and mechanics

    Votes: 272 43.3%
  • Competition and adrenaline

    Votes: 290 46.2%
  • Practice for real racing

    Votes: 128 20.4%
  • Community and simracers

    Votes: 169 26.9%
Back
Top