Cars Porsche 911 Singer 1.1

[Kyuubeey]

As a tip, tire width is often expressed as width from sidewall to sidewall. Actual contact patch is much narrower, some 20mm or so.

 

[Robin_NL]

As a tip, tire width is often expressed as width from sidewall to sidewall. Actual contact patch is much narrower, some 20mm or so.

Agreed, but I think he means the look of the tyre width ingame/replay: they're pretty wide(front) vs the real car(stance etc)

Edit: On which real Singer is this car based, are there any videos of it please? It's not the Chris Harris driven car (2013) or is it?

Cheers
Robin

 

[Robin_NL]

Lower PSI reartyres, spoiler set to 2, softer rearsuspension, softest rear ARB, power/coast LSD to max(80) and still, when driving around like sightseeing/coasting no throttle at 100/120kmh and just turn in a bit, the car wants to pivot and go sideways. Even at 150kmh in 5th 'power oversteer'.......
IMHO(!) The rear end needs to be way more planted. No offence, but the physics don't seem right to me,: Tyres/Aero/Suspension? I don't have a clue. But if this is how the real car pivots and oversteers it should not be on the road at all

And I love to control (power)oversteer(IRL too!), but in a realistic way....

Thanks
Cheers
Robin

 

[Kyuubeey]

I was just driving my C2 on M030's yesterday actually, and the thing just pushed to no end compared to the Singer. On 205/225 to boot!

It's a setup thing. I doubt you've ever driven any car IRL this fast which is as neutral as the Singer. Go watch the recent Laguna Seca test lap posted some pages ago and you'll see what I mean.

 

[jonelsorel]

Absolutely. Was just talking of the visual side of things. Fronts are a bit thicker than real, or better yet the reatio rear/front looks a bit higher in real life, emphasizing that meaner, hot rod stance:

Btw, is it possible to have smaller steps for spring and damper rates in the final one?
Danke.

 

[Robin_NL]

I was just driving my C2 on M030's yesterday actually, and the thing just pushed to no end compared to the Singer. On 205/225 to boot!

It's a setup thing. I doubt you've ever driven any car IRL this fast which is as neutral as the Singer. Go watch the recent Laguna Seca test lap posted some pages ago and you'll see what I mean.

No I do not and I do not see what you mean. But I have driven a lot of Elfers and I do trackdays IRL. Have you driven an old Elfer? I have never driven a Singer that's true but have you?

Your Singer is not neutral. Hate to say it. Go and drive the CTR Arch's CTr-1, they go and slide over 4 wheels or go into understeer, which they should. They are physically spot on.

Cheers
Robin

 

[jonelsorel]

Robin, real car offers you much more feedback in terms of what a tire does at the limit, big part of it being what your pants tell you. We drive sim cars much harder than we would do any real life counterpart simply because there's not as much feedback as in real life, where you would back off much sooner at 150, way before getting into anything hairy, because you have more control around the limit than you can ever have in a sim. Most people overlook this. AC runs its physics at a "grainy" 333hz, that's less than half of what Automobililsta can do. And you do feel the difference. Then there's the question of how you run this game, how many frames, what frametime, how much input lag.

I find balancing this car on the long left hander before T1 at Black Cat County simply delicious. It doesn't take long to learn the tires. This car begs to be moved around with minute weight shifts.

 

[Kyuubeey]

Absolutely. Was just talking of the visual side of things. Fronts are a bit thicker than real, or better yet the reatio rear/front looks a bit higher in real life, emhasizing that meaner, hot rod stance:


Btw, is it possible to have smaller steps for spring and damper rates in the final one?
Danke.

It's possible, I haven't checked sizes myself closely. High chance the tiresize is made to be @ contact patch.

No I do not and I do not see what you mean. But I have driven a lot of Elfers and I do trackdays IRL. Have you driven an old Elfer? I have never driven a Singer that's true but have you?

Your Singer is not neutral. Hate to say it. Go and drive the CTR Arch's CTr-1, they go and slide over 4 wheels or go into understeer, which they should. They are physically spot on.

Cheers
Robin

Nope, unfortunately I haven't, but we have a good video posted recently by Carfection which shows the car quite neutral, 4-wheel steering into corners. Just btw, but neutral doesn't mean for me what it likely means for you ie: sustained understeer. Neutral will turn into oversteer if you apply any more stress onto the rear tires while in that state: because the slip angles are equal. Not very desirable for performance cars, but can be fun.

Btw, I'm Arch. I've made all of those mods in the Cars page, including the CTR and RSR. Funny you mention the CTR when it's essentially a mid-engine car currently with incorrect aero as well.

 

[jonelsorel]

Robin, would you qualify this as neutral or understeer?

You can jump straight to 1:04.

 

[Robin_NL]

It's possible, I haven't checked sizes myself closely. High chance the tiresize is made to be @ contact patch.


Nope, unfortunately I haven't, but we have a good video posted recently by Carfection which shows the car quite neutral, 4-wheel steering into corners. Just btw, but neutral doesn't mean for me what it likely means for you ie: sustained understeer. Neutral will turn into oversteer if you apply any more stress onto the rear tires while in that state: because the slip angles are equal. Not very desirable for performance cars, but can be fun.

Btw, I'm Arch. I've made all of those mods in the Cars page, including the CTR and RSR. Funny you mention the CTR when it's essentially a mid-engine car currently with incorrect aero as well.

OK, both Kunos CTR and your CTR-1 behave physically 'sim wise' alright. And they aren't very different from each other.

First of all Kudos to al your work and efforts! Greatly appreciated.

But... if a Singer car in a real life video is being 'neutral' (for whatever that means in an older 964 based car) it's not automatically that your simcar 964 Singer does behave the same.

Take a look at this 964RS at the Ring. Understeery.

And I hate to say it I highly doubt a new 'tuner' brand like Singer can magically 'neutralize' a rear engined old platform like the 964 /911 is when Porsche could not and even RUF/Manthey cannot, because that's the character of 'the Elfer' and you know that.

So I think it's in the tyres or in the rear Aero? I just think your Singer needs a more neutral/planted rear (when coasting/driving along) or more understeery.
But even playing with the setups is not getting me what I want...

And I love the car!

Cheers
Robin

 

[Robin_NL]

Jonelsorel, I know what you mean, I have a 144HZ monitor and My FPS are 120-130

Robin, would you qualify this as neutral or understeer?

You can jump straight to 1:04.

That's a C2 and that's real life (DOH) neutral to understeery. With a tad of oversteer because C2's aren't super powerful relatively.
Arch's Singer is already sideways when coasting.
CTR/CTR-1 not so much.

This is an old crappy video of me in the Kunos CTR at Silverstone. It's controllable. But on power oversteer.

@37 seconds the left kink is where I get oversteer in 5th @ 150kmh in Arch's Singer.

And this is me @Zandvoort:

I just HOPE you can provide me a more planted rear end setup, that's all.

Thank you!

Neutral will turn into oversteer if you apply any more stress onto the rear tires while in that state: because the slip angles are equal. Not very desirable for performance cars, but can be fun.

This is what you stated Arch and this is just what your Singer does atm.

Cheers
Robin





Cheers
Robin

 

[jonelsorel]

Robin, just looking at it as i see it, but you're anything but smooth with the RUF, which you say is the more stable car, in that clip. You're overdriving it, which is what I guessed earlier. It's almost like you want to drift it - check your exit from the chicanes (0:17), which is anything but fast in terms of lap time. In the following high speed turn (right hander) your turn in point is way earlier and entry speed too big to do anything but a powerslide, and in the following left turn you go from massive understeer to oversteer, which means that you're not balancing the car at all to take the turn. Again, big overdriving.

Possibly the tires are not in their ideal operating temperature - either below (tire warmers?) or way above. If it's above, that's a sign of overdriving again. If you could post a clip with the tire app visible, that would help get a better idea of what's going on.

EDIT: spotted tires cold as ice in the lower left. Recommend using tire warmers.

I don't see anyone in the clips provided chucking the wheel like that to get the car to turn. You should be using weight transfer way more subtly on any rear engine car with barely any aero.

I can understand why you say the Singer oversteers.

 

[Kyuubeey]

Robin, you're probably forgetting that the Weissach is locked out on the Singer. You have something like 0.20 less toe-in towards corner per-wheel on the Singer than in a stock 964. As appears to be the case on the real car.


Also, the KS CTR isn't even remotely close. I don't understand how you think the behavior is right when all it really does is oversteer. Spring-wise it's about 80% off, ARB wise about 300% off IIRC and rear geometry wise something like 300%. Front geometry is also like 100% off. Also the rear tires have something like 10 - 15% extra grip from what it'd more likely be IIRC. It's a joke car.

So your assessment where you claim my CTR and the KS CTR aren't so far off from each other makes me really question the validity of it. Later, I'll send you the 964 and you'll see it pushes just like you'd expect.

Btw, Porsche's intent was never to tune out the understeer. It's much better legally for them this way. They could have very, very easily done it whenever they wanted with only ARB and alignment.

EDIT:

Oh, here is the video in case you can't find it. I've timestamped 2:37, but jump there if it doesn't work and tell me that's an understeery car.

Now of course it's always possible they just have less stiff bushings for the Weissach, or more rear camber and less front camber like I've seen in some pics, or more rear toe-in etc. etc. but it sure does appear to neutral steer to me.

 

[Robin_NL]

OK guys, I see we're not on the same level of thinking(whatever level may be right lol)
I just gave you likes so you see I don't want to get into a fight with you about Kunos CTR being crappy.

I know the normal CTR is more oversteery than your CTR-1 definitely, so can you provide me with the planted rear end feel of your CTR-1 in your Singer please. Because 'nobody knows' how a Singer drives irl overhere on this forum and tbh I seem to be the guy with the most real life driving experience, sorry.





Cheers
Robin

 

[Kyuubeey]

Robin, there's a video right there. And given what we do know and can assume about the car based on the track, alignment and height, coupled with the video, we have an alright idea. It's not gonna sustained push in corners like a stock 964 of any kind would: that's what it looks like at least. Mild understeer into mild neutral steer.

I'm still investigating the exact wheel offset and track width values. For example it looks like the Laguna Seca car's rear track is actually to the R&T spec, so wider than ours: but front is way too wide at R&T spec. I'm gonna check if they made a typo perhaps.

Assuming current front is ok, then that change alone would give a bit more stability overall.

 

[Robin_NL]

I hope in the next build my 'issue' is a bit more sorted out.


Cheers
Robin

 

[CobraCat]

Absolutely. Was just talking of the visual side of things. Fronts are a bit thicker than real, or better yet the reatio rear/front looks a bit higher in real life, emphasizing that meaner, hot rod stance:
View attachment 331996
View attachment 331997
View attachment 331998
View attachment 332001

Btw, is it possible to have smaller steps for spring and damper rates in the final one?
Danke.

The tyres on the real life Singer are chubbier and squat I think. They almost look too fat for the rim, hahaha.

 

[CobraCat]

Here is my Silverstone Singer challenge attempt. I'm definitely a below average driver and not spent much time at o' Silverstone. I prefer the real world road circuits like LAC and Fonteny. Mid corner in the left hander after the S/F I hit about 170km I think. Am I doin it right ? Anyone know why my clutch movement isn't appearing in the Pedals app ? Strange.

 

[jonelsorel]

The tyres on the real life Singer are chubbier and squat I think. They almost look too fat for the rim, hahaha.

Singer tires seem to have rounder sidewalls, yes. They really underline what Dickinson said about stance and roundness in the Chris Harris interview.

Btw, i might host a session later on. This car deserves beimg driven in packs.

 

[CobraCat]

Singer tires seem to have rounder sidewalls, yes. They really underline what Dickinson said about stance and roundness in the Chris Harris interview.

Btw, i might host a session later on. This car deserves beimg driven in packs.

Yes rounder sidewall for sure. They remind me a bit of the tyres on a 1973 Porsche RSR. I think the tyres on the AC Singer are from the original model by Kubicki if I'm not mistaken.

https://www.behance.net/gallery/77607165/Porsche-911-Singer