Cars Porsche 911 Singer 1.1

[Ben O'Bro]

Yes rounder sidewall for sure. They remind me a bit of the tyres on a 1973 Porsche RSR. I think the tyres on the AC Singer are from the original model by Kubicki if I'm not mistaken.

https://www.behance.net/gallery/77607165/Porsche-911-Singer

i used the profile as ref yes and redid the tyre, so it should be same-ish shape indeed

 

[kingdomblues]

great mod congratulations
a real beauty !!
but very hard to drive, almost undriveable for me, I don't understand the philosophy of that physics, no doubt close to reality but I have no pleasure in playing it
sorry

 

[CobraCat]

great mod congratulations
a real beauty !!
but but very hard to drive, almost undriveable for me, I don't understand the philosophy of that physics, no doubt close to reality but I have no pleasure in playing it
sorry

This video has all the basics to driving a classic 911

 

[kingdomblues]

yes thanks @CobraCat but it seems too exagerated, too much, in the mod

 

[CobraCat]

You just need more seat time. Gotta be patient with the 911. We've not had a proper vintage 911 in AC until the Singer and the 993. Bit of a learning curve for sure! You might try driving the car straight away with the tire warmers.

 

[kingdomblues]

i love the 993 by A3DR, hard but fun to drive, 993 seems realistic for me, like the veloce for example or the TVR, I do love working on these cars
perhaps you're right, i'll be back in some months

 

[Mad_Mike]

My game crashes telling me the driver model is probably missing?! any suggestion about that?

 

[jonelsorel]

Why does everyone find something easier for them more realistic?

This Singer in its current state has tons of grip on tap, if you can coax it to give it to you, and so does every single vintage Porsche mod in AC. You just have to go online and see how people race. Having an opinion is perfectly fine. But as long as others can hit realistic lap times, the problem is not with the mod, it's with driving style. It's what EVERYONE thought in the 60's when the 911 entered racing. You can't say it wildly oversteers when you're 5, 10 seconds slower per lap than your opponent, using the same setup.

Tuning down the rear ARB to the minimum, lowering pressure an maxxing diff options just shows you expect a RR car to have the same level of rotation around the Y axis as a MR or FR.

 

[Robin_NL]

Why does everyone find something easier for them more realistic?

This Singer in its current state has tons of grip on tap, if you can coax it to give it to you, and so does every single vintage Porsche mod in AC. You just have to go online and see how people race. Having an opinion is perfectly fine. But as long as others can hit realistic lap times, the problem is not with the mod, it's with driving style. It's what EVERYONE thought in the 60's when the 911 entered racing. You can't say it wildly oversteers when you're 5, 10 seconds slower per lap than your opponent, using the same setup.

Tuning down the rear ARB to the minimum, lowering pressure an maxxing diff options just shows you expect a RR car to have the same level of rotation around the Y axis as a MR or FR.

I understand what you're saying....

.....but I myself would never compare driving /racing a real car(like an old Elfer in this case, of all cars! ) to a mod or a simulation. Because then you're actually saying this mod should behave more or less exactly like the real car. And there the opinions differ a bit, hate to say it again.

Have you ever driven (old) Elfers in real life and/or on track? Just asking.

Tyres are a very crucial point.

Edit: And by saying I find the rear end not planted enough does not imply I am not fast enough with this car, I'm just stating I find the rear end not physically realistic enough. Maybe I'm slower than you in the Singer, or maybe faster on a particular track. It's both possible. I know how to stay fast when 'sideways' (ingame), just like Waldegaard, Mikkola, Alen, Munari, Vatanen back in the old days with their rwd cars on some rough rallystages in the 70s



Cheers
Robin

 

[Błażej Wianecki]

I understand what you're saying....

.....but I myself would never compare driving /racing a real car(like an old Elfer in this case, of all cars! ) to a mod or a simulation. Because then you're actually saying this mod should behave more or less exactly like the real car. And there the opinions differ a bit, hate to say it again.

Have you ever driven (old) Elfers in real life and/or on track? Just asking.

Tyres are a very crucial point.

Edit: And by saying I find the rear end not planted enough does not imply I am not fast enough with this car, I'm just stating I find the rear end not physically realistic enough. Maybe I'm slower than you in the Singer, or maybe faster on a particular track. It's both possible. I know how to stay fast when 'sideways' (ingame), just like Waldegaard, Mikkola, Alen, Munari, Vatanen back in the old days with their rwd cars on some rough rallystages in the 70s



Cheers
Robin

Hi. I don’t know why you keep ignoring the reference video that was posted here. At least make some comment about it. At one point it presents an exact same behavior you have a problem with. We probably won’t have a better proof of how realistic the physics are than that as none of us have driven (or probably will drive) a real car. Another big argument in favor of Arch that he is incredibly thorough with his research and can be very articulate about it, as can be seen based on his other releases. Of course he can be still be wrong but to prove him that you need a stronger argument than “I think the car should drive differently” which is effectively what you’re saying. Having said that I also found some discrepancies in behavior while braking in the first release but I based my argumentation on actual video or quotes from established car reviewer.
I recommend you watch a harry’s garage video of him taking his 993 gt2 replica to goodwood. I realize that singer is based on a different car with different suspension design, but it’s still a classic air cooled 911. He says there that driving the car is all about managing the rear end and how there is barely any understeer. It proofs that such behavior is possible in a road going 911. Yes, I know it was a replica but surely a good one. You can’t imagine Harry buying a dog after all
Also your comment about how ks and Arch’s CTR are similar kind of undermines your credibility. I don’t want to be rude or anything but it genuinely made me chuckle. And I base my feelings purely on driving sensations as I’m not in any way prepared to compare their accuracy based on actual data as author of this thread does so eloquently.

 

[Robin_NL]

Hi. I don’t know why you keep ignoring the reference video that was posted here. At least make some comment about it. At one point it presents an exact same behavior you have a problem with. We probably won’t have a better proof of how realistic the physics are than that as none of us have driven (or probably will drive) a real car. Another big argument in favor of Arch that he is incredibly thorough with his research and can be very articulate about it, as can be seen based on his other releases. Of course he can be still be wrong but to prove him that you need a stronger argument than “I think the car should drive differently” which is effectively what you’re saying. Having said that I also found some discrepancies in behavior while braking in the first release but I based my argumentation on actual video or quotes from established car reviewer.
I recommend you watch a harry’s garage video of him taking his 993 gt2 replica to goodwood. I realize that singer is based on a different car with different suspension design, but it’s still a classic air cooled 911. He says there that driving the car is all about managing the rear end and how there is barely any understeer. It proofs that such behavior is possible in a road going 911. Yes, I know it was a replica but surely a good one. You can’t imagine Harry buying a dog after all
Also your comment about how ks and Arch’s CTR are similar kind of undermines your credibility. I don’t want to be rude or anything but it genuinely made me chuckle. And I base my feelings purely on driving sensations as I’m not in any way prepared to compare their accuracy based on actual data as author of this thread does so eloquently.

I have driven a 964RS and a lot of Elfers in real life. Have you?
My old man had a 1989 3.2 Carrera from 1995-1999....

And what accuracy? Arch is dissing Kunos' CTR like it's the worst sim car ever, still he hasn't driven an old Elfer in real life.....so what accuracy?

Still thank you for the great car Arch and friends, greatly appreciated.

Cheers
Robin

 

[Robin_NL]

I recommend you watch a harry’s garage video of him taking his 993 gt2 replica to goodwood. I realize that singer is based on a different car with different suspension design, but it’s still a classic air cooled 911. He says there that driving the car is all about managing the rear end and how there is barely any understeer. It proofs that such behavior is possible in a road going 911. Yes, I know it was a replica but surely a good one.

Harry is a very good carjourno and a nice guy but he definitely is not a fast driver irl.
You are talking about a lot of 'video evidence' while not having driven an old Elfer irl which makes me think : What do you know about car physics at all irl? Sorry but that's what I think of your comment......
I also don't want to be rude but as stated again: If there are videos of real cars displaying neutral/under/oversteer handling doesn't mean automatically the sim/modded car we're playing in Assetto Corsa has the same behaviour in game......



Anyway, for the SECOND time this video, take a look at the driving of 964RS, that's Christian Gebhardt a fast driver.

Cheers
Robin

 

[Błażej Wianecki]

I have driven a 964RS and a lot of Elfers in real life. Have you?
My old man had a 1989 3.2 Carrera from 1995-1999....

And what accuracy? Arch is dissing Kunos' CTR like it's the worst sim car ever, still he hasn't driven an old Elfer in real life.....so what accuracy?

Still thank you for the great car Arch and friends, greatly appreciated.

Cheers
Robin

No, I haven’t and it’s not that relevant as we are not talking about 964 RS. Have you seen any video or article about singer however? Do you realize what is the extent of Singer treatment. Their changes are really more than skin deep to put it mildly. What makes you think that the car retains its driving characteristics? I would be surprised if it did
As for the ks and Arch’s CTRs comparison. You clearly didn’t understand me. I was talking about how different the cars clearly are from driving perspective yet they are similar for you. It is hard to take your feedback seriously after that...
And still you made no reference to the video. How come...

Edit: Ok, you did eventually. Good. Sorry, it still says to me more about car handling than you driving essentially a different car. For now this is our most dependeble reference in my opinion.
Harry may not be a fast driver but he can say a thing or two about car handling, don’t you agree? All I wanted to say by that is that the behavior that you are ruling out as not plausible in a 911 pretty much aligns with his experience in his own 911. Funny that. Somehow I believe him more than you.

 

[jonelsorel]

Robin, with all due respect for your real driving experience based on what you say, your driving clip there (what you do) is the farthest thing from proof for your point and actually shows you don't feel the car, which is something very basic. I, for one - and i base my conclusion on your clip, couldn't take your opinion as an argument for how this or any other car feels in AC. I'm speaking for myself, of course. This isn't a "size" contest in which who's driven the most 911s has the strongest argument, what matters is how you drive. In this case, just one.

Furthermore, you seem to ignore clips arch, cobracat and I posted, which show how 911s behave when driven hard, which is how they should given the laws of physics.

You want your opinion to be taken into account, as we all do, but how you drive in that clip speaks for itself (and against your word actually).

 

[Leonardo Ratafiá]

by "elfers" he means 911s (elf is eleven in german)

 

[Błażej Wianecki]

Harry is a very good carjourno and a nice guy but he definitely is not a fast driver irl.
You are talking about a lot of 'video evidence' while not having driven an old Elfer irl which makes me think : What do you know about car physics at all irl? Sorry but that's what I think of your comment......
I also don't want to be rude but as stated again: If there are videos of real cars displaying neutral/under/oversteer handling doesn't mean automatically the sim/modded car we're playing in Assetto Corsa has the same behaviour in game......



Anyway, for the SECOND time this video, take a look at the driving of 964RS, that's Christian Gebhardt a fast driver.

Cheers
Robin

As for the video. Yeah, I saw it some time ago. Quite understeery and surprisingly stable. Having said that I remember it had a very sticky modern rubber on. Not what it was designed to run on in the fist place. I bet that on period correct tires it would be considerably more lively. Singer on the other hand is designed with modern tires in mind as it is in fact a modern, essentially new car.
To avoid further misunderstandings, I believe that driving characteristics of both cars can be very different. And I stand by that. I don’t doubt your experience in 964 but I dont find it relevent.

 

[Kyuubeey]

Look, let us put it like this.

Having driven a 911 will do nothing to the camber curves, toe curves, roll center graph, damper dyno graph, motion ratio graph, swing arm lengths, wheel alignment, LLD, SI etc. of the cars.


On the topic of the car, it can't be even 85% accurate simply on the virtue of some things. We just don't have enough data about the *exact* settings they run the cars on.

The stock cars however, I have data on. They understeer. I'd matched them to video footage from BM before and now it's a bit closer after some improvements. The base is alright, even with the very slightly inaccurate aero.

Now Robin, for your concerns/complaints:
The Singer should have a wider rear track, a few mm wider front track (Looks like they made a typo and fat fingered a 5 into a 6 on the sheet) and about 1deg more rear neg. camber basing it on pics of the car being photographed before/after the Laguna Seca lap and some others. I'm not surprised if it handles basically the same as in the video, and you still wouldn't like it because it doesn't conform to your mental image of the car. That's okay. I would however like to get the car more accurate and send a more stock example your way because you could offer some input on that.

About the car being impossible to drive, a bunch of not-amazing drivers, like myself, are hooning the thing around just fine. Give it an hour, or maybe more like a week as is for real 911s to get used to it.

 

[jonelsorel]

Anyone able to host a server tonight? As in tried and could connect to AC lobby?

 

[Avo77]

Look, let us put it like this.

Having driven a 911 will do nothing to the camber curves, toe curves, roll center graph, damper dyno graph, motion ratio graph, swing arm lengths, wheel alignment, LLD, SI etc. of the cars.


On the topic of the car, it can't be even 85% accurate simply on the virtue of some things. We just don't have enough data about the *exact* settings they run the cars on.

The stock cars however, I have data on. They understeer. I'd matched them to video footage from BM before and now it's a bit closer after some improvements. The base is alright, even with the very slightly inaccurate aero.

Now Robin, for your concerns/complaints:
The Singer should have a wider rear track, a few mm wider front track (Looks like they made a typo and fat fingered a 5 into a 6 on the sheet) and about 1deg more rear neg. camber basing it on pics of the car being photographed before/after the Laguna Seca lap and some others. I'm not surprised if it handles basically the same as in the video, and you still wouldn't like it because it doesn't conform to your mental image of the car. That's okay. I would however like to get the car more accurate and send a more stock example your way because you could offer some input on that.

About the car being impossible to drive, a bunch of not-amazing drivers, like myself, are hooning the thing around just fine. Give it an hour, or maybe more like a week as is for real 911s to get used to it.

Perfectly reasonable, but tires make a hell of a difference and, unless you have reliable data about them (I doubt it), your assumptions are as questionable as Robin.

I simply tried to swap tires with the ones from your CTR and the car becomes more controllable both on street and semis (track surface on slow and default setup) . I also tired the street90s: they simply overheat too fast but for one or two laps the car is still quite controllable.

Out of curiosity I also tested the swap with standard Kunos CTR tires and, while being even more oversteery then your original release, it is simply not comparable in terms of confidence and controllability over the limit. You can catch it at reasonable sideslip angles, change attitude with inertia or throttle and be strongly punished when deserved. IMHO something in between Kunos CTR and your CTR tires would be closest to something a car manufacturer can sell to the customer for keeping him scared but possibly alive for buying the next vehicle (please consider that both me and Robin are quite familiar with cars able to power oversteer in 3rd gear at 150km/h...).

 

[Kyuubeey]

Tires are the only thing which matters. All the suspension and aero do is give parameters to the tire load and slip simulation.

They should be reasonable, but I'll take another look. Ignore the KS CTR tires, they're just hacked together. I had them initially on my CTR and it just wouldn't turn.