Cars PM3DM Super Touring Cars

ben baron · Aug 8, 2020

Patrik Marek said:
which shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone who has seen @A3DR work

definitely in good hands to make a master piece !

If i got it , there is Ben lee , you , a3dr , and the mysterious Paul as 3d modeller ? !)

Ben Lee · Aug 8, 2020

ben baron said:
definitely in good hands to make a master piece !

If i got it , there is Ben lee , you , a3dr , and the mysterious Paul as 3d modeller ? !)

I am not a moddler at all! My only input into this is testing, providing car research + data and doing sound recordings.

ben baron · Aug 8, 2020

Ben Lee said:
I am not a moddler at all! My only input into this is testing, providing car research + data and doing sound recordings.

oh ok miss understood there !)

Patrik Marek · Aug 9, 2020

we also have 2 more guys , one tackling Mondeo and the other Accord

civicgsir · Aug 9, 2020

Patrik Marek said:
Accord

Judging by that front pic of the Renault, I cant wait to see how the Accord turns out.

AccAkut · Aug 10, 2020

civicgsir said:
Judging by that front pic of the Renault, I cant wait to see how the Accord turns out.

I'm assigned to the Accord so don't get your hopes up

I think I'll return to it after I get a release of my track out

iwn · Aug 10, 2020

As being still a bit disappointed with the physics that were changed for Primera 1.1, I just ask if these late 90ies BTCC cars differed much from the DTM cars a decade earlier? Wouldn´t the Kunos DTM cars work as a base to configure physics? The BMW E30 could be quite close? I just can´t see the point why to make these cars so jumpy. Primera 1.0 was quite close to those DTM cars.

GTAce · Aug 10, 2020

iwn said:
I just ask if these late 90ies BTCC cars differed much from the DTM cars a decade earlier?

Yes, the fact that most of them have different drivetrains alone should be enough.

AlleyViper · Aug 10, 2020

Also, these are purpose built Super Touring class/Class 2 (their costs caused their demise), not Group A (as the ks 190/M3 DTM cars). Then, of course, suspension for these cars can differ a lot vs something like the M3 on a per car basis.

Patrik Marek · Aug 11, 2020

we - especially Ben - watched a tons of videos, looking at how car reacts over kerbs, under breaking etc. , as well as talked to actual drivers driving these cars in historic touring car series,

of course having telemetry would be a huge win, but sadly that was something we weren't' able to obtain

we are always opened to discuss where the physics is going, especially if the conversation is based on some evidence / material

but when someone ( and that's not the case here) says ," it feels wrong, not enough grip" , that's something we can't take too seriously, as it could be simply wrong expectations

to me pretty much all road cars from Kunos feel like they don't have enough grip ,as I have driven road cars on racetracks and it felt like they didn't understeer as much, but I'm pretty sure it's my memories skewed by the fact that in real life I was driving slower, then how I drive in the game

Ben Lee · Aug 11, 2020

Well there are some aspects of the Nissan that I am still not happy with. How the rear breaks away still isn’t quite how it should be. As one of the drivers said, “you would always set up the rear axle to have less grip than the front”, but it’s about fine degrees and I think the rear needs to be more manageable.

Kyuubeey · Aug 11, 2020

Ben Lee said:
Well there are some aspects of the Nissan that I am still not happy with. How the rear breaks away still isn’t quite how it should be. As one of the drivers said, “you would always set up the rear axle to have less grip than the front”, but it’s about fine degrees and I think the rear needs to be more manageable.

In my experience you should be cautious about listening to advice like that. Aiming for getting the mechanics right will, unsurprisingly, match the behavior.

With the Primera having a semi-trailing arm rear, it is a bit annoying because the "proper method" doesn't work fully even with EX=2; the antilift is too high regardless, so there is always a small doubt. Perhaps it is more doable on a FWD car where antisquat can be ignored for example, but I digress.

Even then, you can match the yaw rate completely and there will be a tester who absolutely swears that it should oversteer a lot more because he's not using VR, has a chair which doesn't quite feel right, has a wheel which doesn't quite feel right etc.

Due to factors like that, you want to get as many things which are set in stone as correct as you can IMO.

Oh, for the AWD cars, currently there's a bug with CSP internal force correction and steering FFB when using AWD2, it produces some violent forces through the steering when braking and whatnot, so unless that gets fixed, at least using AWD2 you will be forced to use vanilla internal forces anyway. I'm unsure if it happens for AWD1.

Leonardo Ratafiá · Aug 12, 2020

so either when the real driver says the car doesn't behave properly or the car behaves like the real thing you should never believe him

Kyuubeey · Aug 12, 2020

Leonardo Ratafiá said:
so either when the real driver says the car doesn't behave properly or the car behaves like the real thing you should never believe him

In my opinion, yeah, you shouldn't hold that much importance to it unless everyone is saying something like that. Another driver will say something else, most of the time. The same car will be completely wrong and completely right at the same time depending on who you ask. Inevitably you end up ignoring such feedback and rely on facts more and more.

Of course, if the car is somewhat good, there will be more agreements than disagreements. Driver skill and experience with simulators factors in very much as well. It's also not completely obvious that two drivers of the same car might be driving with extremely different car setups or tires, which makes a comparison quite unhelpful.

Patrik Marek · Aug 12, 2020

Kyuubeey said:
In my opinion, yeah, you shouldn't hold that much importance to it unless everyone is saying something like that. Another driver will say something else, most of the time. The same car will be completely wrong and completely right at the same time depending on who you ask. Inevitably you end up ignoring such feedback and rely on facts more and more.

Of course, if the car is somewhat good, there will be more agreements than disagreements. Driver skill and experience with simulators factors in very much as well. It's also not completely obvious that two drivers of the same car might be driving with extremely different car setups or tires, which makes a comparison quite unhelpful.

of course! but the feedback CAN still have more value then "random" simracer

that's not to say we don't listen to simracers, but yeah, if there are 2 opposite feedbacks, it gets tricky very quickly