Open Letter to Sim Developers - Why the Lack of Touring Cars in Sim Racing?

[Rhym3z]

Would give my left nut for BTCC in iRacing (any year), such an underused extremely popular series with recognisable cars, tight racing and some of the best tracks in the world. Thruxton.
Even just the tracks alone would be nice

 

[anthony monteil]

Hmmmm and why love everybody Senna..??
Formule 1 in the 80`s

They never.. never try it... so you can say that it does not work

The problem with Formula 1 is different. You need to achieve a considerable amount of sales to cover the licensing costs, so this is even more risky than any standard series.
Even then, a single 80's F1 game would likely generate much less sales than a modern F1 game.

A satisfying solution would be to mix modern and classic seasons like in the Codemasters F1 games, but in a more complete way (not only a few classic F1 from random seasons).
Then again, the cost of such a title might not suit the budget/sales expectation ratio...

 

[anthony monteil]

And about srmz maybe now is a echo chamber.... but finaly the 15 years after papyrus game it was not. now the time with VR agree.. GPL is still to old now.

Maybe we can do a poll... Paul Jefrey here on Racedepartment if there is realy no interest??

I'm afraid a poll on RD wouldn't provide some representative results, as it wouldn't on the GT Planet website etc etc.
Each community got its own focus and preferences but it doesn't necessarly give an objective pov on what the majority of the players want.
Yes, you can grab some indications, tendances, here and there, but that's pretty much it.
In the end, the real barometer remains the sales.

BTW, the subject of the thread is the lack of Touring Cars in Sim Racing

 

[Ben Lee]

Touring cars just aren't popular at the moment, I think its as simple as that. I must admit I when the WTCC was formed I thought it could have been the start of something great, however it sorta wilted and died now has reformed as basically "World TCR". I think part of the blame can be levelled at the rule makers. Too many series with differing rules. Now that TCR has taken off in a big way, for the first time since S2000 and supertouring we have a common set of rules which have been accepted by a number of governing bodies, it may bring back some of the popularity and with that will come commercial agreements (maybe).

 

[Ghoults]

I think it is cyclical. As someone who has sim raced since the late 90s there have been periods where different cars are popular. Grand prix legends with their 60s f1 cars was released in 1998 and it took quite a while before we saw the lotus 49 or any of those cars in any sims again. Now there is quite good choice of those cars in rf1, rf2, automobilista, iracing and assetto corsa.

Same thing with gt cars. In the late 90s we had sportscar gt, then nothing, then gtr1 and gtr2, then nothing. Now they have slowly built back up again and gt3 cars are everywhere. I think touring cars are just just going through a silent period. They are not completely gone but they are pretty rare with only raceroom offering something that is modern. F1 games went through a similar period between the ea/isi games and the current f1 series. Then you have your more realistic rally games. What happened between richard burns rally and dirt rally? Nothing really.

You also have your trends. 20 years ago all games were essentially built around single series. Now the trend is to have everything. Every kind of cars and tracks. Not so much to have series. But then you have assetto corsa competizione coming out with focus on single series. Maybe we go back to single series games from the smorgasboard sims that have little bit of everything. Focus on getting the tiny details right instead of focusing on having tiny bit of everything.

Another new trend is e-sports. I would not be surprised if some of these touring car series decided they want to have that too. If real f1 teams have sim racing teams and if acc takes off with their gt3 themed e-sport system then surely touring cars will do it too.

 

[Ben Lee]

From what I hear, the BTCC licencing costs are huge and there is still the question mark over whether Codies still hold the rights or not. I guess its possible they still hold the "option" but to execute it would cost a considerable amount. I heard a paddock rumour that a current popular sim wanted to licence either some cars or the whole series and balked at the cost.

 

[ChaosZeroJK]

This is the entry list for one event, does not represent the current gen of cars available to race.

Nissan GT-R Nismo GT3
Aston Martin Vantage
Chevrolet Camaro GT3
Bentley Continental GT3
McLaren 650S GT3
Audi R8 LMS
Lamborghini Huracán GT3
Porsche 911 GT3 R
Mercedes AMG GT3
BMW M6 GT3
Ferrari 488 GT3
Corvette Callaway C7 GT3-R
Toyota Lexus RC F GT3
Honda Acura NSX GT3

That only is the global cars. And some older specs are still homologated

The Callaway doesn't race outside Germany and the US. The Camaro hasn't raced in more than a decade (there's a lone one occasionally racing in Australia), the regional cars don't count. The older spec cars don't count either. It's OEM number, not # of models per OEM. So it's 12vs11. Wow, what a shocker (not).

 

[Tero Dahlberg]

The Camaro hasn't raced in more than a decade...

Huh? There was a Camaro in Blancpain GT3 series 2014.

 

[Will Mazeo]

They are still SRO homologated cars that can be used in any international series tho
The regional cars only makes the grid more rich and interesting as manufacturers are actually willing to make cars for these. Cant complain about extra manufacturers, can we? The fact is: cant compare anything with GT3 at this moment.

 

[davoroni]

While GT Legends did not sell as well as GTR2, sales were nevertheless very respectable.

true but then that STAR security crap in GTL essentially stopped future sales when every saw how good it was, and look a Power and Glory mod for GTR2, which worked as well, and sounded as good.
i think there is a huge sim market for this type of racing and solid TC like BTCC supertouring even the current flavor
F1 gets in as the defacto top level sport as the promotions are obvious, the best racing isn't necessarily found there same in Sim racing.
like my much loved Iracing Jetta, close tight crazy racing.

 

[Richard Dastardly]

Another new trend is e-sports. I would not be surprised if some of these touring car series decided they want to have that too. If real f1 teams have sim racing teams and if acc takes off with their gt3 themed e-sport system then surely touring cars will do it too.

This, I think, is the main reason why ACC is single series - and why it's Blancpain. I opened the British GT website earlier & the top news story was an eSports event from well organised series ( running Forza! ) so it wouldn't surprise me to see an SRO official Virtual Blancpain next year. If the sim is good enough maybe some of the real drivers will want to enter, the ones who already simrace in public seem excited enough.

I'm not sure a virtual WTCR would take off when the real one isn't that exposed atm... I guess TOCA might start looking at something similar eventually now they're overfilled again. If a TC series was a GT support perhaps - but WTCR doesn't exactly fit in schedule-wise with any GT series, and in the UK BTCC is bigger than our national GTs.

 

[wombat999]

Touring Car Series are not fashionable with the great unwashed.
I watch the present day BTCC and the racing is epic, our Aussie V8 Supercar series is generally outstanding, NASCAR (not at all except for non oval events) rarely, and any other National series that appears under a Touring Car Championship heading.
IIRC there have been issues with licensing for decades, but that is just SOP and a result of too many 'Lawyers' attempting to justify their existence.
As for 'e-sports', after watching an unfortunate event programmed on Fox under 'Motorsport' I was totally underwhelmed!!!! Rubbish but symptomatic of the present day.
Fashions change, hopefully a brave developer might bite the bullet and attempt to convince a body such as the BTCC that a co-operative effort with a nominal license fee would make good commercial and promotional sense.

 

[Richard Dastardly]

BTCC is big enough to take a full day's programming on a national TV channel here - while that doesn't mean what it did when we had far less channels, it's still national TV & not relegated to internet streaming. BTCC races are packed out at the tracks too. Maybe it *is* time TOCA woke up again. TOCA 3 built by the Dirt Rally crew ( if it has to be Codemasters ) wouldn't be the worst - for all it's quirks DR isn't that bad - and it's not like you have to build a sim from scratch every time these days so the outlay is on art assets mostly, and that is the sort of thing that gets done for TV presentation already. Doesn't have to be a global success to be worth it.

Anyone remember Dice making that STCC game? there's a niche TC series...

 

[Kenny Paton]

Anyone remember Dice making that STCC game?

They did the Volvo game and a rally one as well, I would think most will remember STCC as an add-on pack for Race07.

BTCC races are packed out at the tracks too

Maybe that's why they feel they don't need the money or extra publicity, and appear not to care if Codies do nothing but give them cash.
Their last official in game appearance was five cars dlc for Grid Autosport, a far cry from the heady days of Toca.

 

[Will Mazeo]

Devs can still license car by car tho and tracks individualy. No need a full series license. Call it the Queen's Touring Car Series and put an old lady driving the cars on the game poster = done

 

[davoroni]

honestly in the States TOCA and TOCA 2 came out of nowhere and fully established the BTCC as the definition of touring car for a generation. AusV8s being the steroid version of it.
it got excellent reveiws and still is the standard bearer for touring car competition on a platform really. Forza has done wonders as has the grantourismo series, only to have BTCC models themselves.

never mind DTM from early 90's.
the formulas were great racing was good, and the comparative sims carrying these were also good.
so why not go grab the BTCC and lean on the historics to being back touring car to the simworld again, look what GT Legends did, half of that was touring car action.

 

[Fat-Alfie]

I have recently discovered Aussie V8s on the Motorsport channel and am totally hooked! Awesome races, great to watch, a little bit of contact but nothing ridiculous, just really, really great racing! You can't beat RWD and too much power

It reminds me of how BTCC used to be in the old days, before 'a bit of contact' turned into 'banger racing'

 

[Socky Noob]

Probably from a lack of interest from people or something. Or maybe it's hard to get licensing now. Has to be some form of reason that has nothing to do with a lack of want.

 

[Richard Dastardly]

It reminds me of how BTCC used to be in the old days, before 'a bit of contact' turned into 'banger racing'

I'm not sure which BTCC you're remembering Andy Rouse & Steve Soper perhaps? Mike Smith made that era a full-contact sport! ( and boy, 4-class BTCC would be a hell of a game ).

honestly in the States TOCA and TOCA 2 came out of nowhere and fully established the BTCC as the definition of touring car for a generation.

Maybe that's why they feel they don't need the money or extra publicity, and appear not to care if Codies do nothing but give them cash.
Their last official in game appearance was five cars dlc for Grid Autosport, a far cry from the heady days of Toca.

Probably from a lack of interest from people or something. Or maybe it's hard to get licensing now. Has to be some form of reason that has nothing to do with a lack of want.

I wonder if it's just lack of thought? or maybe it really is just insufficient spectacle - put the current cars to a mid-90s supertourer & they just look cute even if they're probably not that much slower ( if at all, haven't actually checked laptimes ). Perhaps someone looked at the costs of TOCA2, extrapolated to current prices & cried - it'd not be anything like the same today when you can buy a complete sim engine though.

One might hope if ACC takes off that Kunos could hire themselves and their engine out to produce other series as complete packages.

 

[Fat-Alfie]

I'm not sure which BTCC you're remembering Andy Rouse & Steve Soper perhaps? Mike Smith made that era a full-contact sport! ( and boy, 4-class BTCC would be a hell of a game )

I watched it from 1989 - 2000 (ish). I remember it being quite clean in the earlier days, but towards the end of my interest I seem to remember almost every race being a complete farce, with drivers either showing way too much aggression, or way too little skill. When cars were getting punted of every race, I lost interest and stopped watching it