Open Letter to Sim Developers - Why the Lack of Touring Cars in Sim Racing?

Touring car is a super weird term. Unlike single seater, formula car or rally car you can have pretty much anything from super downforce awd cars to 200hp fwd grocery getters and 650hp v8 australian supercars and call it a touring car.

There really needs to be some separate terms for some of these. Let's say dtm and supergt are silhouette gt cars, v8supercars is australian stock cars, and things like wtcc and btcc are touring cars.

So from that point onwards I can kind of imagine why the touring cars are not popular. First one is the most obvious one. They are not even nearly as popular as the supercars, gt3 cars, lemans prototypes. Something like f3 or f2 are relatively popular just because it is the road to f1. But btcc is purely british thing I think and wtcc was just weird.

Another thing is the driving experience. Touring cars are no the most exciting cars. They don't sound great, they are fwd and don't really have much power. They are great cars for racing but the perception is that they pretty dull to drive. I'd probably not drive most fwd cars much on my own but if I wanted a good race the low power fwd touring cars is right at the top. But at the same time if you drive a 600hp super car against other cars you can have fun even if you don't have anyone near you. With the touring cars there really isn't that much to do unless you are in a group of cars. The straights are pretty boring and the corner is pretty much all about getting the rotation in mod corner so you can use the power to drag it out from the corner. But if you make a mistake you are just slow. With rwd cars each part of the corner is exciting and different and if you get it wrong you can't just smash the throttle to recover. But because rwd cars are more difficult to drive fast the gaps between drivers are bigger. With fwd cars the gaps are small and the racing is usually better.

As for the other classes. Supergt is super rare just because they are only known in japan. I don't think your average motorsports fan even knows those things exist. But because it is big in japan the cars are expensive to get into a sim but also have very limited audience. Supergt would work great with gt3 cars so it is not like they'd need their own universe inside the sim to function either.

Dtm is a bit weird one. Only raceroom has the newer cars and nobody else has anything. Is it the cost, restrictive license agreements or what? Supergt is easy to explain but dtm is difficult. Maybe it is just too expensive or maybe the car makers just don't want to see those cars in game and push for other cars when sim devs come to talk. Or maybe it is just the models. To make a supergt car you'd need to dig deep into japanese language to get your datas. But at the same time I think dtm people speak english well enough so there is no language barrier...?
 
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From my understanding BTCC is really difficult to get, but has been tried before but the guy who runs/controls it is a pain in the butt and has a huge wallet..There's no doubt that BTCC & V8 Supercars would be a great addition to the sim community, but neither would be great and worth having without the tracks from both series..I hate getting cars from a particular series and having to run them on incorrect tracks.
 
Hahaha this one is a little more friendly Mr. F, so worry not :D

Ooh what was that? Do you have a link?

Also my two cents. I think you hit the nail on the head. GT3 is all the rage, it's a fashion thing. If Sims were as developed as they are now back in the late 90s / early 00s I guarantee touring cars would be the stars of the show.
 
To make a commercial succes
Raceroom.... Ac...Project cars.... Automobilista... it is a bit of everything. Gt3 s.. a few openwheelers or lmp's.. some road cars.. to much same modern tracks.. borring Tilke things.. If you want a commercial succes you have to distinguish from the rest. If everybody make the same blue shoes... and your factory make also the same blue shoes like the other. It is not the way to make monny or a commercial succes :cool: doing something different. And whats wrong with the old days?

While the idea of doing something different (and purely "historic") is highly seducing (at least for people like you and me), it's also quite risky and hard to achieve on a commercial point of view. And not even talking about licenses....
I also had this illusion that there's lot of money to make with it but it's sadly far from the reality of the market.
These are the main reasons why we probably won't see some titles like GPL again.
I agree it's a shame but a developer needs to be successful nowadays, or he will simply disappear ;)

And let's agree that historic content is plethoric since the last 2-3 years, with some machines and tracks we would never ever imagine to be able to drive one day in a racing game :)
 
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EASY: before TCR the touring car world was virtually dead for a decade. Nobody watched WTTC etc.

Honestly, this thread is weird and makes no sense. :roflmao:

Well, I watched WTCC... it was a lot of fun. And now there is TCR. Those guys push their cars to the limits in ways it is hard to imagine in GT3 or something like that. Door to door, flying over the curbs, grasping the walls in the street circuits… I love touring cars, specially when they are real cars (not such a big fan of DTM and the likes).
 
That's easy. Big grids and hard, close, full-contact racing.

That's pretty much what makes any racing series worth watching. Just so happens that GT3 is the current standard in grid sizes and close racing.

But we have that in BTCC *now* ( we have that in WTCR even ) and it's not the same - it's possibly just that supertourers had more presence, they seemed fast & powerful. Even the utterly insane WTCC cars with the ridiculous aero didn't have that presence.

WTCR Nordschleife race was great, I enjoyed watching that. Anywhere else just doesn't seem that much of a pull for some reason. BTCC is still holding interest somehow. Incidentally about BTCC being a British thing - it is at the moment, but in the 90s it drew in drivers/teams/attention internationally. Frank Biela was BTCC champ in a works Audi one year in a series with 9 factory teams, to put things in perspective.

I do agree though, the takeup in the lower GT classes is drawing attention from touring cars, as is the GT takeup of cars that might be in touring car series. I don't mind terribly - GT4 races are fantastic both to watch & in a sim, there ought to be more of those too.
 
But we have that in BTCC *now* ( we have that in WTCR even ) and it's not the same - it's possibly just that supertourers had more presence, they seemed fast & powerful. Even the utterly insane WTCC cars with the ridiculous aero didn't have that presence.

WTCR Nordschleife race was great, I enjoyed watching that. Anywhere else just doesn't seem that much of a pull for some reason. BTCC is still holding interest somehow. Incidentally about BTCC being a British thing - it is at the moment, but in the 90s it drew in drivers/teams/attention internationally. Frank Biela was BTCC champ in a works Audi one year in a series with 9 factory teams, to put things in perspective.

I do agree though, the takeup in the lower GT classes is drawing attention from touring cars, as is the GT takeup of cars that might be in touring car series. I don't mind terribly - GT4 races are fantastic both to watch & in a sim, there ought to be more of those too.

There's a perfect illustration of the issue, then; I didn't know BTCC grids were large again. And I am a non-denominational motorsports fan. I really should catch up on the series... I don't think I've watched a race since the first season the Subaru Levorg was introduced, for some reason.

As to your final point, I whole-heartedly agree about GT4. Brilliant stuff, and I would love to see more of it. I know pCARS has several models, and we have a couple in AC. I want moar. They're right in the sweet spot in the triangle of 'fast enough to be exciting,' 'slow enough to be thrown around,' and 'pretty.' I much prefer the Continental GT series to the full-fledged IMSA series (forget what it's called this year). Large grids, varied manufacturers and close racing. GT4 is what GT3 was 7 years ago, and that's a good thing.
 
all important has already been said,
I think at this point your best bet to get mods that will cover the series that you like. But since mods take easily 6-10 times as long to develop, it will simply take 6-10 times longer to see the full series done
I really like Touring cars as well, but I totally understand and agree that the return isn't quite there. People (the masses) want to drive Ferraries against Porsche, not Ford vs Lada
This.
About Lada I won't even lose a moment to dream of and Ford... I already have. :D

Although I really have enjoyed Race07 and just recently have uninstalled it, maybe even more with TOCA 2: Touring Car Championship, as they say... there's no commercial success in it. And without it - you can't survive. Imagine some kid deciding to buy between Forza motorsport, Gran turismo and Project cars franchises with their total of 10.844 cars against Touring car championship - racing on edge with 100 miles per hour, special 22 cars edition. :unsure:
Shame but that's the world of today.
Sometimes games like Nascar 3, Grand Prix Legends, TOCA 2 Touring Cars, Mobil 1 Rally Championship... stand a chance.
 
I think official and mod content is saturated

My crazy idea for developers in future would be to make sims that are more interactive.

Full walk around mode and helicopters with fly by wire for start
Briefing room for example in realtime

So race officials, marshals, engineers, mechanics and more as playable characters !

You could control pace car at Lemans or wave flags, control a rattle gun, hand out penalties or as a spectator being able to free roam, get hungry and buy a hot dog lol

It could bring a whole new type of player to online sims not just drivers
Human race control would be a must, as the game penalties system is always ridiculous
 
I don't really understand this article. There are various forms of "touring cars" in most of the current sims right now, depending on how you want to define that term. R3E is the sim to own if you're really a fan, given that it has WTCC, DTM, touring classics from the 90's, and will soon have WTCR.

It seems to me that some people have blinkers on, only seeing what's in their favourite sim. They want every single car in every single sim which I think harms the genre rather than helps. I think that perhaps developers should start being more focused, getting grouped licenses that make sense together, and specialising their sims for that core group... but like the F1 games do. That way we free up development time and get detailed sims where everything is done correctly and accurately instead of these almost random jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none sims that try to do too much.
 
Yeah, seems you just have to know where to look Paul:

http://game.raceroom.com/store/packs/

https://www.iracing.com/series/iracing-v8-supercars-series/

The TCR spec series is huge and everchanging, and as someone said, I'm not sure every team want to give out the data. There is a few TCR spec cars in pC2.

The problem with the Supercars in Iracing is: it’s in Iracing, which many consider to be too expensive. And also it’s almost only popular in Australia. If you try to get into an official race (8 racers +) from within the EU you won’t be lucky. This will change with the AI soon. On the other hand: the Supercars in Automobilista are much better imo.
 
I believe Paul means a fully licensed TC series, all the cars, tracks and rules. that rules out the games with a hotch potch collection of TC cars and some tracks. Also R3E, admittedly really good, has limited reality in tyre choice, track choice etc.

Also regarding BTCC and V8 Supercars, as a few have mentioned those in charge want stupid amounts of money meaning it's just not financially viable. I think I read somewhere that SMS had a chance at the V8 Supercars license, but it was way too expensive. I've written an email to BTCC about a modern game (I chose PC2 because it already has most of the tracks, Ginetta Juniors, Clio cup and "some" Touring cars etc) and had no reply at all, which I thought was rude. Seems the problem is NOT the Devs but the rights owners are complete arseheads?
 
there's a selection of touring cars in Gran Turismo sport as well .. haha! .. eventhough they are mostly fictional cars, but I have to say that I don't really care, since I like driving those kind of cars

so yeah, the choices are there
as some other people say, just because they are not in your sim of choice, it doesn't mean there is a general lack of touring cars in racing games

actually coming to think of it, GTS has a pretty decent car selection regarding the touring cars, if you can get over the fact that its' not real series

here are few

but of course, if you are after fully licensed series, that's probably very unlikely, because IF ( and probably not) the cots are as high as Formula1 , Formula1 game will always make more sales

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... I've written an email to BTCC about a modern game (I chose PC2 because it already has most of the tracks, Ginetta Juniors, Clio cup and "some" Touring cars etc) and had no reply at all, which I thought was rude. Seems the problem is NOT the Devs but the rights owners are complete arseheads?

I've put email to BTCC few times to ask how in hell I'm supposed to see those races here in Finland after they geoblocked that ITV-site where you could watch races afterwards, never got any answer.
 
Modders have, you've just been living under a rock all this time.

Yes but no one cares, or only solo players. I am admin of a server, I put GT3, server full, I put touring car, historic cars, server empty. I ask my community what they want for opens in side of our championship, they want GT3. People are obsessed by GT3, it's tiring...
 

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