New Tactile Hardware 2023 / 2024

[RCHeliguy]

Lurking and loving the passion as always

Cool stuff.

Do you think it would make sense to replace my existing previously recommended 40W Dayton Exciters with the BDS for my seat? Or if that is currently working as designed should I leave it be?

It sounds like they are generally better in all ways.

 

[Mr Latte]

Lurking and loving the passion as always

Cool stuff.

Do you think it would make sense to replace my existing previously recommended 40W Dayton Exciters with the BDS for my seat? Or if that is currently working as designed should I leave it be?

It sounds like they are generally better in all ways.

Hiya, one of the main differences is that they can deliver felt sensations the previous best exciters would not manage. This especially with low frequencies, but they also feel stronger across the whole bass range in the output they offer, even though the wattage is the same.

So yes, I see great potential with these on seats as well Mark.


Combining Effects
Currently on my test platform I have dual MQB1 raised like a pedal arm, with dual BDS replicating a foot plate for L/R pedals.

Todays latest efforts with my effects work, was to bring sensations for pedals that offer something different and combining multiple effects.

The achieved result so far, (for me) is a much more immersive level of interaction, for general road feel activity with low and high speeds. Also for emphasising a reduction in speed when braking/decelerating to compliment the desired ABS sensation.


BDS "Road Textures"
Operating as a background sensation that alter in feel with speed.
Using from 28Hz - 63Hz with only two layers applying very different response curves.

BDS "Deceleration G-Force "
Adding more drama to road feel with fast-slow scenarios, currently I have the BDS operating from 8Hz - 63Hz with a secondary layer using a different response curve and 56Hz - 44Hz maintaining frequencies within (Low/Cen/High) values with 1/3 octaves.

MQB1 "ABS"
As an effect this offers little options and with a static frequency. I have it compliment both of the above effects. Testing with different frequencies but so far 6Hz feels great as a stand out sensation with these two other effects activity. Will look at applying an output of different frequencies to BDS/MQB1 for this effect to see how it feels over dual units.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I'm thinking I might order 6 of these. 4 to replace the 6 weaker exciters on my seat ( they were only running on 4 channels anyway) and another couple to play with on the pedals.

 

[Mr Latte]

Dayton 300EX and Dayton BST1 have been delivered. Will be interesting to see how these fair with the effects I have been working on. Got my plate full, so to speak with units to run tests with...

I fully expect the BDS to now be a better option than the BST1, but I wanted to learn first-hand how it compares and likewise see how the Reckhorn is against the BST1.

These are all relevant for me to buy/try with the same effects to determine if indeed the BDS is the new budget king for tactile?

The 300EX will be pitted against the MQB1 to see how each handles the low bass roles. Will the 300EX get my recommendation for a suitable low bass extension unit or should people just consider BK PRO or larger BK LFE.

 

[Mr Latte]

Weekly Update
Been continuing with some more effects work over the last couple of evenings.

Finding the MQB1 and BDS work really well and enjoying experimenting with these so much that it's taking up time I should be doing towards the HPR comparisons. So apologies for those maybe waiting on that. I will get around to it but another reason for the delay is with what else I am doing.


Oh GGGs
Have achieved very nice sensations in character on the BDS units, for the various G-Forces to complement other effects. It really brings the pedals alive and I disagree with some others, that may have the view, that all we need in pedals is RPM/ABS. This is one of the benefits of these new BDS models with being able to work with lower frequencies that most other budget options do not handle so well.


"G" for "Gamechanger"
These G based effects I have, require nice feel with frequencies below 20Hz.
So not frequencies that previous exciters used on peoples installations, handled well.


Ripper Mate
Tracks like Bathurst, climbing up and coming down the hill, with lots of acceleration G, deceleration G and lateral G loads being active. To feel those, each with their own individual characteristics. Yet having them combined with the road textures, road bumps, road vibrations and road impacts. ALL those working in tandem and in stereo to the feet.

It's on a new level of interaction with the cars handling, speed, steering and track elements.

What else.... have a good ABS combo with 8Hz & 20Hz on the BDS , with 8Hz also on the MQB1 for a generated feel that neither unit on its own will offer.

I think their are various effects I will consider applying over both the "general and punch" operational units. Impacts is another that feels great with both the punch of the MQB1 and detail of the BDS. You can feel what I think is each wheels suspension bounce in the stereo operation, really enjoyable. Perhaps different than having an "impact effect" applied to a large or low bass unit in mono. The stereo operation maintained is just nicer/cooler when hitting curbs/walls etc.


For A Future Thread
I have also been working on what will be my own profile for testing frequencies on tactile hardware. It will utilise an RPM response curve to let users apply frequencies that are contained within the various options I showed and operating upto 250Hz.

Full Octave
1/3 Octave
1/2 Octave

Other test frequency combos will also be included.
These for frequencies that do not feature in all 3 of those above and other frequencies that only feature in 2 of them. Additionally their will be multiples of certain other frequencies that tend to work well.

I am creating a master profile for this, but think it might be best to make from that, individual tests for specific makes/models of transducers/exciters/shakers. Their is little point a test having a whole bunch of frequencies a unit does not operate well with.

So perhaps it's best to trim the master set, to only have frequencies relevant for specific models. Therefore, the user can download the test profile that is relevant to the hardware they own. From this people will be able to test all the applicable frequencies for that make/model of unit that operate with this approach I use.

It will also let me then adapt the effects I make, using/maintaining this musical approach with octaves for "unit specific" versions. It is likely that most budget units will not be able to handle so many effects but, each type of effect can be made with frequencies that operate well on that specific unit. Then the user can decide for themselves what effects they want to apply or do not bother using.

 

[Mr Latte]

Thanks to those following btw
I find it hard to believe this thread is going to surpass 10K in such a short time.

 

[RCHeliguy]

"If you build it, they will come."

 

[RCHeliguy]

Are you using the adhesive or threw bolting those BDS exciters.

 

[Mr Latte]

Are you using the adhesive or threw bolting those BDS exciters.

So far I have only stuck mine on, they have remained (inverted) on the underside of the test plates with no problems. I have mine basically replicating a foot rest at the moment with the ongoing effects creation.

For seats or curved surfaces, I think a 3D printed adapter with the same thread to attach, but having a larger diameter may be a stronger options and allow strips cut with Dual Lock to attach.


Most Popular Pedal Bracket?
Lots of people will already have adapters of some form to suit different pedals for the HPR units, due to their popularity.

Just a suggestion to anyone, I would like to see for the community, 3D printed designs that align/match the mounting holes for those HPR brackets that people may own. So, then people could bolt onto pedals with those, these other options...

1. BDS (IMS thread) exciters
2. Earthquake MQB1

For pedals I still aim to release stereo effects for (pedal stem/base plate)

HPR / BDS
BDS / BDS
MQB1 / BDS

 

[RCHeliguy]

Just a suggestion to anyone, I would like to see for the community, 3D printed designs that align/match the mounting holes for those HPR brackets that people may own. So, then people could bolt onto pedals with those, these other options...

I assume these are oscillating along the arc of the pedal pivot? Or do you see any side mounted?

 

[Mr Latte]

I assume these are oscillating along the arc of the pedal pivot? Or do you see any side mounted?

Pretty much the same as the HPR....

Might be easier with most pedals to just use the back of the pedal/plate arm and then add stereo BDS to the bottom foot plate region for each heel. Additional, larger (low bass) unit(s) could also be applied for the foot plate region as well. The 300EX seems to be the most affordable that may work in that role and why I bought one to explore its potential working with the BDS units.

However, we start going into quite a lot of money as you know with BK or larger Q10 units. For sure I will experiment and explore options with additional units on my own pedals in time but the focus for now is not my own build.

I really want the focus to be able to deliver a much improved level of tactile and still within a decent budget.

4x BDS will perform well and offer a lot of potential for very reasonable money and easily powered with affordable amp. That may even be possibly better than 2x HPR and 2x BDS.

A configuration with dual MQ1B and also dual BDS is a step up in price but also performance.

 

[CallistoJaro]

Mr Latte you are awesome... Was looking to replace my 4xDAEX30HESF-4 on my simrig seat for rpm and shifts... And I found your thread here... It looks like the BDS is a good choice to replace the HESF-4 for a bit more sensation. My HESF-4 are powered by an douk M4... Curios how your final thoughts is of the BDS....

​

 

[Mr Latte]

Mr Latte you are awesome... Was looking to replace my 4xDAEX30HESF-4 on my simrig seat for rpm and shifts... And I found your thread here... It looks like the BDS is a good choice to replace the HESF-4 for a bit more sensation. My HESF-4 are powered by an douk M4... Curios how your final thoughts is of the BDS....

​

Up until now, we could not experience the low bass sensations the BDS offer with such small units. Especially an option that is so affordable, it's bass range and performance over that range is almost bizarre....

Having a unit like this, that is even more capable than past exciters, which can be installed or placed to specific body regions and performing this well. It quite simply opens up new potential for effects sensations to be experienced that other units will not offer.

Also I doubt other people will have made effects up to this point for (budget tactile) that offer what these effects bring with this specific model of exciter.

Some may see that as a bold claim, but again I put it to anyone to share what effects they use for comparison, to how good they are, if they think I am just talking out of my backside.

W.I.P


Here we have 5x stereo effects operating with each other, to enhance the road sensations, steering input and slow/fast scenarios with tracks. I believe, this might be, well beyond what an HPR unit can offer or perhaps what most others have done to this point, with units like Dayton pucs, different exciters, other budget transducers, or with motor based units for pedals?

Each effect above offers it's own generated sensations, yet is musically matched with frequencies to work with the others. Part of the success with this is down to the BDS units abilities with such a wide range of frequencies. In fairness however, people may not want to use them all and for best detailing we could split the number of effects to a different channel.

This is why I am promoting the idea, of having a stereo pair of units for the pedals and another stereo pair for foot plate (4). Not relying on a single unit for all effects on each L/R pedal. Even with the BDS as we start to pile up the effects on each channel we will lose definition of specific sensations.

I have been focusing on stereo effects for pedals as really few people seem to have explored this properly and my curiosity of seeking to see what the potential was. Personally, I want to deliver much more immersion for both the pedals/seat sections and its why I went about making new effects specifically for these units based on how impressed I was with them.

While I still want to push the HPR to it's limits with those amps I bought, I do not believe as a unit it has a hope of being anywhere as versatile as a unit in its operational frequency range the way the BDS is. I've got engrossed with enjoying the BDS and working on those effects the last couple of weeks.

To be clear, I want to compare the BDS with the Reckhorn and BST 1 to determine if indeed the BDS can be considered the best budget option now. Not just the best exciter or better than the HPR.

So apologies, but this still will take time. Yet I want to be thorough, and not rely on others feedback, so it's why I am going out and spending my own money to learn/understand exactly how each unit performs with this approach I use with making effects.

IMPACTS - low frequency usage example:


Single layers will not usually generate such sensations, more advanced character to an effects feel is possible, but we need units that operate well with fractional octaves and the more musical approach with building effects I demonstrated. I also want to determine with each of the effect layers how good/bad other units can manage to operate with the low frequencies I am applying to the BDS.

I think, I can say with some confidence that for those installing units directly to pedals/seat regions (not corners). The BDS units, and with these effects I will share, should set a high benchmark for what or how good a budget tactile option can be.

All the effects will be scalable for additional low bass extension and also developed for the seat. This as mentioned before will come in its own thread and be shared with the community...

 

[Mr Latte]

I have ordered the Nobsound 5.1 amp that I shared as a potential worthwhile recommendation... Does seem to be some clones of this and another option from Nobsound that is also 5.1 but I do not believe shares the same features.

This One

I want to test it myself with multiple units being driven and see how it holds up with the demands of Simhub. This will go towards part of my own shared approach but its only right that I build and test my own effects on hardware I believe will be good options to consider using.

The previous Douk Audio M4 amplifier, which a lot may have bought to power 4x units. Some people might of had issues with it heating.

I believe this was more of an issue for people using units on corners and then having to crank the amplifier volume. Basically to compensate for the vibes being wasted or travelling all over the rig frame, rather than into smaller pedal/seat isolated platforms.

Also as a fun toy and having a bit of a thing for visual meters (have various others).
I took delivery a week or so ago for this below.

It lets me see quite easily how stereo effects are operating on the L/R channels. As part of an overview I would like to do when releasing these effects, I was looking to see if/how different settings may alter the output or if any improvements can be made to improve stereo based effects..

 

[Mr Latte]

Ahhhhhh, weekend again....
Recent Purchases and things still to work on.
Will admit, that working on effects for the BDS has side tracked me somewhat over the last few weeks from getting my teeth stuck into things that need done.

ALL TO DO:

No.1
Test dual HPR units with different amps using
12V 24V 48V power supplies.

The idea was to have dual HPR units so I can compare 1:1
A) Having each unit used with different PSU
B) Compare standard effects, with the amps and with official controller

What are the benefits or findings?

While I spent the money on having dual units and buying two more additional amps to help with making this possible. I just do not think much gain will be achieved from it. This is just based on what I understand so far with the operation and abilities the HPR unit has and how it feels with different frequencies.

This does not take away from the fact that lots of people have bought or own these and it still would be helpful to have this testing done. To then understand what the true potential with the HPR using it with an amp is. Perhaps I can adapt some of these effects being worked on to then let users of dual units have some effect options to try or as shown a while back. To combine HPR units with BDS units to bring more than what each on its own can achieve.


No.2
See how well the BST 1 and 300EX that were purchased, perform.
Does the BDS make a better option to the BST 1? How different is the BST1 to the Reckhorn? These are the three primary budget options I believe to consider or look to determine which from them is the all-round best unit for advanced effects in Simhub.


Dayton 300EX
As a product it may be in a price/category that either makes it awesome value or with some pros/cons to some others that cost a bit more. As yet I do not know if it is closer in performance to a BK Mini, MQB1 or BK PRO (BK Advance).

Ideally I bought this to discover for myself, what make/model of unit can be used or perform best within the role of additional lower bass extension. Bringing its own additional immersion benefits and work with with an installation consisting of multiple BDS units in seat/pedals.


No.3
As shown in previous post the Nobsound M5.1 amplifier looks to be an excellent option to power up to 6x budget transducers. I actually have 2x units purchased so that I can use these to test configurations I want to try.

4x BDS in pedals (pedal plates/foot rest), with 3x pairs of stereo units on a seat back/sides, combined with a further 2x mono units in center of seat back. This configuration is based on previous testing I have done with other exciters. It will be interesting to test the BDS units in the seat and feel how good these are over other exciters in this role as well as working in tandem with units in the pedals.

I like this approach that someone can start with a couple of BDS in the seat or pedals but then expand it as they want. Be, it that they may want to experience what a setup with more units or even 12 units achieves. With any of those, consider adding additional lower bass extension capable units too.

Having those options available as installation choices, but with effects already pre-made to be able to enjoy is the primary goal. Enabling users to try their own ways to combine the specific effects they want to individual stereo pairs.

What I do hope to illustrate here is that I want to be thorough in tests/comparisons to discover what is the hardware that brings the best potential performance within a budget to mid price point that is doable for a lot of people.


Other Stuff
Came across a good deal on a like new mini dsp UMIK1 that was hard to miss out on. At some point I can maybe put it to use, for another way of evaluating different tactile or use it to see what's happening on my own installation or also with my speakers.

While not tactile related, more on my own progress towards my own new rig setup goals. It will use the following for multimedia enjoyment. Offering a 7.2.4 level of audio immersion within a compact/tidy/wireless and easy to operate solution.

Although, I have say that I have found some Dolby Atmos (Spatial Audio) music mixes on this setup, can be quite amazing (interesting video) and my rig area is for all my general entertainment not just sim or gaming.

Sonos


I know this will be a lovely match for the following, which I just ordered this week (mentioned in the G9 thread) as finally..... I got a good discount on this monitor and just decided to bite the bullet. It was the monitor or a pair of Sony mdr-Z1R headphones that have been on my (drool list) for sometime.

For me, this monitor is much cleaner and a better option for multi-tasking than triple screens. Still excellent for 21:9 or 32:9 gaming too of course and I will be able to get full usage now of the 7900XTX DP 2.1. Hopefully, a pleasing upgrade from my current 49" model. My own unit will be fitted to a motorised TV bracket, that will move in/out/up/down and not be attached to the wheel deck area like what is maybe the more traditional thing to do.

 

[Mr Latte]

Just an image to give size impression of this amp.
I have not seen any views from people using it with Simhub yet but based on decent performance from a lot of the other Douk Audio / Nobsound amps it seems to be one of the best value options around and with the ability to power 6x small units within one box.



Note*
Full power of the amp requires an additional 24V PSU.



Not expensive but an add on to consider. *Something I will look at and may be recommended if using all 6 channels. Has anyone else already ordered one of these?




Other Options
For budget setups it would be hard to maybe justify this next model. While it has benefits and offering DSP for those that want or need that, but for @4x 50W channels a multichannel configuration would get too costly for widespread appeal or most to consider.




I have 4x of these EPQ304 in my rack. It has been a classic/proven low wattage (@4x75W) multichannel amp for many years. *Loud fans that are easy to swap but at additional expense.




The Douk Audio M4 is used by quite a number of people for budget tactile.
The new 6x channel option, perhaps brings some advantages with 2x units powering upto 12 channels but with some additional features. 3x of these can still offer perhaps the best value if seeking to power upto 12x channels.

Thoughts:
If this new Nobsound 6x channel amp runs well with constant Simhub usage then clearly for price with nice compact size it could be excellent compared to some of these other options. Multiple M4 amps are still worth considering. They have to be one of the best priced options around to power 4x units at a time.

 

[herve45]

Personally, I'm not very happy with my douk audio m4. It cuts out very often (red LED flashing). I use it with 4 Dayton bst-1 bass-shakers.
The volume is at maximum on the douk and the global gain is at 50% in simhub.
It doesn't seem powerful enough. I find it hard to believe that the same problem doesn't occur with this 5.1 douk with 6 bass-shakers.

Traduit avec DeepL https://www.deepl.com/app/?utm_source=android&utm_medium=app&utm_campaign=share-translation

 

[Mr Latte]

Personally, I'm not very happy with my douk audio m4. It cuts out very often (red LED flashing). I use it with 4 Dayton bst-1 bass-shakers.
The volume is at maximum on the douk and the global gain is at 50% in simhub.
It doesn't seem powerful enough. I find it hard to believe that the same problem doesn't occur with this 5.1 douk with 6 bass-shakers.

Traduit avec DeepL https://www.deepl.com/app/?utm_source=android&utm_medium=app&utm_campaign=share-translation

1. What soundcard are you using?
2. How or where are your BST installed?
3. If you have the volume at max on the amp why do you then limit Simhub to 50% ?

Some soundcards offer stronger output than others and that is why I have recommended a specific model with improved performance to some others.

Tactile units, if installed on smaller pedal/seat platforms rather than say corners or on a main rigs frame section, will require less wattage. Isolating these platforms helps with that.

For exciters or other units, directly connected to body contact points in seats/pedals these will also require less wattage but it makes sense to have isolation for them to maintain better more of the vibrations in the platform the seat and pedals are mounted too.

 

[herve45]

4 bst-1 in the back
Sound card startech USB 7.1
Global gain at 50% recommended on good vibration

 

[Mr Latte]

4 bst-1 in the back
Sound card startech USB 7.1
Global gain at 50% recommended on good vibration

Quite large units to place on the back of a seat....

First query would be that you are using a 24V PSU with the amp...

Also, have you checked if you have any bass cancellation issue?
This could happen if you have both pairs of units using identical phase. May be worth trying to swap +/- wiring on the 2nd pair if this is a related factor?

I cant say I tried the BST 1 with the M4 amp but if you are struggling for power with units attached directly to the seat then it would make sense to increase the Global Gain of the soundcard and possibly let you reduce the amps volume a tad so that it is not operating at full tilt all the time.

Exciters and other units like PUCS are being used a lot with this amp, but those may be more efficient to drive. The alternative is to consider a different 4x channel amp or pair of NS 20G 100w amps with 24V.

My advice would be to replace the BST with BDS for the reasons this thread covers, but that might not be so easy if you have drilled your seat already.