Need your help , GPU upgrade ?

[manu68]

This is about the idea.
Upgrade just what my cpu can handle for cheap .
To be honest , anything above a rtx 3060 will potentially lead to a cpu bottleneck at some point, based on my observations, bottleneck calculator, ......
money for " nothing"

With a cheap upgrade like a rtx 3060 ( not even 3060 ti), my pc should live at least 2-3 years more with "good" framerate/details on the current sims (let´s see AC2, Rennsport,..).
After that i could think about starting from scratch and build a brand new pc for the future ( maybe 3 screens, VR, .......).

 

[Spinelli]

If you need to undervolt your GPU just to get your CPU to use higher clocks then I'd really look into fixing your CPU's cooling or case. Something seems very wrong.

If you're tight on funds, then I would look into a used 3060 Ti.

For CPU, I'd wait until Intel 14th gen comes out. If the lower models such as the 14100 and 14400 have more cores than the 12100, 13100, 12400, and 13400, then I would look into getting that with a very cheap, used Z690 DDR4 motherboard that way you don't have to buy new RAM. If the amount of cores are the same, then I'd get a used 12th or 13th gen version of that same chip (1x100 or 1x400).

Either that, or wait a bit more for Intel Arrow Lake (not Meteor Lake) or the equivalent AMD series (probably 8000 or 9000 series). That'll require new RAM too as you'll almost certainly need DDR5 for those systems.

 

[manu68]

I put a small video on my channel.
A lap at nordschleife in AMS2 with 20 AI. (Don´t care about the driving itself)
Graphic settings pretty maxed out.
You could see the benchmark figures, and maube give me some more ideas to optimize further.

Undervolting of the gpu allons to keep 1886 mhz constant (i could go further but it is stable like that. And I have some reserve on the fans speed).
Average 100-110 fps is OK for me with AI
It seems that AMS2 uses all 6 cores of the cpu, not like ACC and AC.

I will do the same for ACC, AC, Rfactor2 ...

 

[Spinelli]

If you're happy with 100-110 fps and that's what you're getting then what is the problem? Just go play and enjoy

Otherwise, what is your goal?

If you're looking for higher framerates then overclock your CPU and GPU. You should not need to underclock / undervolt your GPU just to prevent your CPU from downclocking. If that is the case then something is severely wrong with your CPU cooler (broken? mounted incorrectly?) and/or case.

If after overclocking your CPU and GPU, you're still looking for higher framerates, then I would start to decrease graphics settings. Having every gfx setting at their absolute highest setting is usually incredibly inefficient. Most of the times, with most graphics settings, you can have them set to the 2nd highest setting and not be able to tell any difference whatsoever with the human eyes/brain.

 

[RasmusP]

I put a small video on my channel.
A lap at nordschleife in AMS2 with 20 AI. (Don´t care about the driving itself)
Graphic settings pretty maxed out.
You could see the benchmark figures, and maube give me some more ideas to optimize further.

Undervolting of the gpu allons to keep 1886 mhz constant (i could go further but it is stable like that. And I have some reserve on the fans speed).
Average 100-110 fps is OK for me with AI
It seems that AMS2 uses all 6 cores of the cpu, not like ACC and AC.

I will do the same for ACC, AC, Rfactor2 ...

The "uses 6 cores" is not the case. The overall load is just around 36%. A cpu core can only either "do" or "idle". At 4.700.000.000 cycles per second it's impossible to know if 6 cores where "doing" at the same time and then idling for quite some time to average out to 36% "do" overall or if only 3 cores where doing something at the same time and then the other 3 cores where doing something.
There's sadly no way of finding this out for real.

The only thing you can do is to download process explorer (sysinternals), but using an older version since the current one somehow doesn't show this correctly anymore.
And then go into the properties of the ams2 exe while it's running and go to "threads".
It will show you the cpu load of the internal application threads of ams2.
If you see a thread close to 8.33% (100/12, since you have 6 cores split by hyperthreading), it's a "big one" that needs a separate core to run best. This is for AC with my old 2600k (100/8), showing 2 threads at the limit, 1 thread a bit bigger and the rest doesn't matter.
So effectively no more than 4 cores needed:

However in your video, it's clearly the 1070ti that's the bottleneck with it being constantly at 99% load.
Why exactly do you need the undervolting? Modern pc hardware throttles itself if it gets too hot. Laptops do it all the time, they are designed to work like that.
So I'd say let the 1070ti run free and rather OC it.
Did you touch the memory in afterburner? My Msi 1070 could run +500 on the ram and 2012 MHz on the core.

 

[manu68]

Yes, i have memory at +350
Otherwise, i already tried overclocking, and it runs pretty hot (about 80-83 C.).
Clock is higher, about 2000 mhz but not as stable. It tends to go down when the temperatur rise up and at the end, it is not a lot better.
With undervolting i run the gpu cooler and more stable

Regarding 99% gpu, it is not always the case in ACC and AC with AI.
I will make also a video for comparison

Again ,my goal is not to max out fps, but more to define if i should upgrade or not , in order to get more better graphics overall (more comfort in general, more fps is always better !)
Learning something about PC config and learn to maximize what i already have is also interesting of course

 

[RasmusP]

Sounds perfectly configured then!
Everything up to 90°C is completely fine btw. There's the software throttling, which you can change in afterburner and there's in-built vBios throttling.
Back in the days hot af GPUs like the gtx 480 would run beyond 100°C (but also die...). The new AMDs have their throttle point at around 90°C and are officially designed to run at that temp.

The only issue with anything towards 110°C is that the transistors start to get unreliable. But modern hardware simply shuts off if things go too far wrong.

So basically: as long the system runs stable, 110°C aren't a real issue.
It's the throttling temp of the vram on the 30xx cards!
You might get game crashes, driver crashes and bsod's though, if the clockspeed becomes too much for the slightly unstable transistors.

So if you want to squeeze out a bit more of your 1070ti:
Don't use the core clock slider, use ctrl+F for the custom curve. Search for optimum tech 3080 or 3090 undervolting. He has a great guide.
You need the flat line at 2000 MHz, probably.

And then raise the temp limit to 88 and the power limit to the maximum.
With the flatline curve in afterburner, you can still try to undervolt.

Or you buy a 3060ti, which should give you a nice boost, a bit if headroom and dlss for acc and probably future sims and last until the 5060 + 15400F come out

 

[blekenbleu]

Why exactly do you need the undervolting? Modern pc hardware throttles itself if it gets too hot.

MSI BIOS defaults i5-13600K core to over 1.3V, which thermally throttles at about 5100MHz.
Applying -0.100V offset to mine (using Intel XTU) enables over 5400MHz with 88C max core.

 

[manu68]

In my case i just speak about undervolting the gpu.
Cpu is stock i think.
And yes, i will try with 2000 mhz flat clock gpu.

I agree with the totally maxed out settings. It is just to push the gpu at max for the video

 

[RasmusP]

MSI BIOS defaults i5-13600K core to over 1.3V, which thermally throttles at about 5100MHz.
Applying -0.100V offset to mine (using Intel XTU) enables over 5400MHz with 88C max core.

I think that was a bit out of context
My 3080 is undervolted too, because it then uses 120W (1/3rd) less, while only losing 5% performance. Way better air quality in my small room!
And my 7600x rund with some negative curve optimizer offset.

My question was directly aimed to Manu about why he'd need to UV, if the temps are "only" 80-83°C without UV.

 

[blekenbleu]

My question was directly aimed to Manu about why he'd need to UV, if the temps are "only" 80-83°C without UV.

FWIW, I originally intended only underVolting to reduce (air cooled) heat load,
but Intel XTU tweaking eased overclocking for underVolt stablilty assessment,
then was seduced by 5% uplift:

 

[manu68]

I got further , and i put 3 ACC videos on my channel.
This time with overclocking i am using regularly ( before i discover undervolting)
Core +160
MEMORY +350


the first is with 100% scaling, no FSR
The second with FSR ultra quality
The third one with 130% upscaling, no FSR

I will let you judge.
It is difficult to see on videos, but 130% and no FSR is by far the most enjoyable gameplay in my opinion, even if FPS are not so high) This is how i like ACC.
FSR brings some more fps, but is too blury , and in the end not as much enjoyable.
Scaling 100% is better as with FSR (in my opinion).

Temperature of GPU is higher and about 220 W with 130% scaling.
GpU is not used 100% , and can not maintain 2000 Mhz because of beginning of throttling.

We can see immediately that AMS2 is less demanding, just because we can play with more details, more fps, and just 150 W power on the Gpu.
It doesn´t mean necessary that ACC is less beautiful (more details in many aspects with less graphic options).

I will make AC , Raceroom and Rfactor2 to finish the comparaison, but i understand better know what i need.
In order to play ACC like i want it to be, potentially with more fps and even more details , i need a GPU upgrade (well, i can survive without it, but it would be nice to have), but not something to much powerful in regards to what my cpu can handle.
I slowly tend in direction to a RTX 3060 .
RTX 3060 ti would be probably overkill.

 

[Neilski]

Coming back to the poss of upgrading the CPU:

used 12th or 13th gen

I have been really disappointed for the last few years at how little money could be saved by buying second-hand tech (CPU, GPU, etc.). Back in the distant past, I remember buying old tech for a fraction of the original retail price (like a quarter or less) but nowadays (at least in the UK) it seems like you have to feel lucky if you can save 30% by buying used
Maybe pricing on used stuff is more sane in your part of the world?

 

[Durge Driven]

Thing is if he gets 3000 series + is pcie4.0 to attain full performance so he will sacrifice what you make from tweaking for that. 8700K will bottleneck that is a given what about PSU Coolermaster 650w is not going to cut it ?
That is why I said from very start don't get a new card because unless the rest of the system is upgraded you won't get the best from the latest sims.

No problem with S/H video here.

ASUS ROG Strix GeForce RTX 2080 8GB | Components | Gumtree Australia Shepparton City - Kialla | 1315551271

Good condition, never had issues nor has it been overclocked before Selling only because I have upgraded Also have a 650w BeQuiet PSU which was used with the ..., 1315551271

www.gumtree.com.au

He throws in a power supply.
$300AU = 180EU

8700K and RTX2080 is perfect combo zero bottleneck at 1920 and miminal at 2560
Pcie3.0 so full performance. As I said I had this same combo running all sims.
30% performance gains over 1070Ti with 8700K I got the same with 8700K/1070 to 2080

 

[RasmusP]

Thing is if he gets 3000 series + is pcie4.0 to attain full performance so he will sacrifice what you make from tweaking for that.

There are plenty of tests showing that even a 4090 only loses 3-8% in a 3.0 slot. Really not an issue with anything that has less performance.

what about PSU Coolermaster 650w is not going to cut it ?

650W is plenty enough for any card that doesn't take more than 300W.
150W CPU, 100W mobo etc. Still 400W left for the graphics card.
His 8700K probably only takes 90W and mobo etc only 50W.

I'd strongly recommend a 30xx card over a 20xx card. Better features and way better effeciency.
A 3060 or 3060ti would probably run fine in a pci-e 2.0 slot and a 400W psu

 

[Durge Driven]

Look I agree on the semantics.
However In the first posts he states he only wants to replace the CPU ( which is pointless) ...so I am thinking well that rules out a new GPU straight away, right ?
What is next best option ? S/H GPU with no bottleneck and match features.
I did not know it is hard to get a good S/H 2080 in other places so a S/H 3060 would be a no go too then ?

That would tide him over till he was ready to upgrade tower rather then buy
a 3060Ti now wait and buy a cheaper newer gen later with matching CPU/bus

I could have answered the question like you have more money, then I would have said get a new 3060Ti.

 

[Durge Driven]

There are plenty of tests showing that even a 4090 only loses 3-8% in a 3.0 slot. Really not an issue with anything that has less performance.

650W is plenty enough for any card that doesn't take more than 300W.
150W CPU, 100W mobo etc. Still 400W left for the graphics card.
His 8700K probably only takes 90W and mobo etc only 50W.

I'd strongly recommend a 30xx card over a 20xx card. Better features and way better effeciency.
A 3060 or 3060ti would probably run fine in a pci-e 2.0 slot and a 400W psu

Good 3060Ti recommend 750watt power supply
3060 is 650watt

Do you have ESP lol how do you know what model coolermaster it is ?
I never said it is no good I just asked the question.
The places I shop won't even stock the bottom end ones.
Personally I would recommend anyone buying new 30xx/40xx to get new power supply if it's old and/or low end model.
Sure a generic lower wattage PSU would work, but the PSU would get hot and the voltage could be unstable and that risks damaging GPU.
It may be a 80+ PSU even then a 3060Ti needs a 8 pin plug, I really don't suggest using adaptors, another thing to avoid. I would guess his PSU has dual 6 pin only.

I surprised you would not recommend at least a gold PSU to tell the truth.
Not like they cost that much more considering I be spending $600AU for card

In that tower a 2080 at half the cost is better bang for buck which ever way I Iook at it.

Features lol I used both 2080 and 3080 with the same sims, please tell me the features I gained, nothing I used anyways ? and power effiency are you real. lol 2080 is 650watt and it's power draw is average 215w ( 3060Ti 220w )
Sure it uses a little more so throw Mum a extra $1 every month lol

P.S. One thing I forgot the 2080 needs a 8pin plug ( + 6pin) as well
Oh heck !! just use the damm adaptors !!!

 

[Durge Driven]

sorry dp.

 

[Neilski]

There are plenty of tests showing that even a 4090 only loses 3-8% in a 3.0 slot. Really not an issue with anything that has less performance.

Yup. Any card with a 16x PCIe interface has nothing to fear from PCIe 3.0, and I'd agree with you that even 2.0 is probably not gonna be a major issue for a mid-range card on most games.

However (as I know you are well aware ) there are a few "surprise!" cards on the market with narrower interfaces, and the AMD 6400 and 6500 really take the cake with just a 4x link (I have no idea why they thought that was a good idea). Even the 4060 (and Ti) only use 8 lanes.

As for power, I'm still making do with a 430 W supply, and I reckon I have an excellent chance of it working just fine with my next GPU

 

[RasmusP]

the AMD 6400 and 6500 really take the cake with just a 4x link (I have no idea why they thought that was a good idea). Even the 4060 (and Ti) only use 8 lanes.

From what I've read they are probably laptop chips. And since laptop motherboards are mostly the same generation, they can safe a few bucks and force budget custom builds into buying a new cheap mobo + cheap cpu instead of keeping their old one with probably identical performance