Mobile Driving/Flying Cockpit with Motion and Tactile ( Build )

[Mr Latte]

I have a full blown version of Soundforge with many more bells and whistles, but I downloaded the Audacity and it worked easily as you suggested.

However getting it to loop cleanly takes an extra step.

I'll need to play with it a bit.
Edit: Actually not sure about that. It appears that some of his loops are not clean. I am wondering if I should make them loops clean so there are no instantaneous changes which is similar to clipping.

Went back to Soundforge because it gives me a Spectrograph view of the waveform being created.

I think I'll clean the wave forms so they loop cleanly. I've taken some and bumped them up to 70Hz or down to 20Hz. Still playing.

I was surprised with the effects you showed how many were using the same 20Hz frequency but in some cases, the effect may of only had a fade/in fade/out applied. So clearly much more potential is possible.

It may be that the default or some user-created effects are quite basic with the usage of simple pure tones. As you pointed out worth trying some options with a bit of experimentation.

Some points to consider that I can put forward.....
Have an effect operate over different 7.1 channels for your BK/TST/EXC configuration would not be that hard within Audacity. This way you could have multichannel sensations for effects but not necessarily using the same frequency (sound sample) output being repeated to all your tactile units. You already seem to of grasped this for the BK/TST and usage of 20/70Hz tones.

With WAV, I believe it's possible to apply more than just simple tones.
So perhaps, worth trying to use snippets of "sound samples" that are made to loop well for effects.

Interesting Possible Scenario:
It would be possible to monitor the audio output from the flight sim for sound elements. So you could, in theory, record a sample for a specific aircraft "Gun Fire". Put that into a DAW as a sound sample and then alter this for tactile. Possibly removing the higher frequencies not needed and boosting the bass.

One useful type of plugin, might be to try a subharmonic processor. This would apply lower bass harmonics to the low frequencies the sound sample already has. When you have a modified "Sound Sample" with boosted bass recorded. Then this could be applied as the recorded effect.

No doubt there are probably lots of free or purchase options for such plugins. Or ways for you to modify the sound sample how you want to adapt it to be used for tactile.

Keep in mind the original recommendation.
Your sound effect can be made up of different frequency or (sound sample) elements within the duration of the effect so that you could apply altered frequencies best suited to each channel or unit. Think beyond the basics of applying the same thing to every active channel.

One plugin I did look at a while back regards added bass extension was "Waves Submarine". Youll find lots of other videos on such tools and maybe other tools like "Avid Pro Subharmonic" and more.

Certainly, ways to be creative or improve things for your flight-sim tactile enjoyment....

Excellent examples highlighted in this video

Nice tutorial on a more affordable option

 

[RCHeliguy]

SimShaker for Aviators thoughts so far.

They have a Base/1, Base/2, Base/6 folders with the stock wave effects.
There are a Custom/1, Custom/2, Custom/6 folders where you can put your custom effects. 1/2/6 = mono/stereo/5.1 ASIO

It will default to the stock effects unless you replace a specific file in the Custom folder.

They have Helicopter, piston plane, jet plane wav files. All are mono files.

There are settings for each aircraft, BUT they just control the volumes of each effect for that type of aircraft. I can not make a different helicopter rotor wave file for the different helicopters. I can only adjust the relative volumes of them.

The effects I'm using are currently mono effects going to both my TST and BK. Which means for any effect, one of them is effectively doing nothing.

This is very time consuming compared to SimHub.

Tweaking individual wave files I find I'm doing the following.
1. I repeat the original wave form once
2. I adjust the pitch to a frequency I want.
3. I cut the wave form so it loops a 0dB and is transitioning to the other direction.

I need to try to create stereo WAV files next, so that I'm feeding something useful to each transducer.

I'll look at the ASIO driver for 6 channels and creating surround sound wav files eventually. That bad news is that while I can share these files eventually, They would require that your transducers are identical and on the exact same channels.

I've got a good 23Hz 120ms helicopter chop wave file that I like so far that varies from very little to nearly 50% in the Wave file.

Next I would like to get a good Jet engine feel which I assume will mostly be on the TST, and I'd like to feel afterburners.

Basically I'm glad I have SSA working because I have no alternatives, but it is extremely low tech compared to SimHub.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I've got the D-Box feeling pretty reasonable with the helicopter now. The combination of motion, G-Belt, tactile, and haptics are working well together. I don't have that direct cyclic feel that I would like. I still believe it would take more angle to work well, but I do feel the helicopter tilting and it's adding to the experience and more importantly not throwing me off.

It is important to note that I could not setup a full sized stick with my NLRv3 and I really like the increased accuracy I have now. I also could feel an immersion breaking disconnect between the rudder pedals and the seat mover and I don't have than anymore. So as much as I loved how well connected the cyclic stick felt with the NLRv3, I wouldn't go back to it just because of how just I love my chassis mounted full sized stick.

The D-Box gives me a good feel for landing, and haptic gun fire and I can feel the heli tilting some. The tactile gives me a good feeling of the rotors chopping. I still haven't worked on the other effects, but it's a start. I'm still hoping SimVibe may have more support for DCS in the future to make this easier. The G-Belt reinforces the motion which helps the motion feel more substantial than it is.

Now that I have my longer stick balanced and calibrated for a smaller than possible range of motion, it feels wonderful. I have so much more control and my targeting accuracy is greatly improving. I will be back-ordering a Virpil CM3 at some point in the near future to get the ability to add drag to the stick. I think that would help improve things more.

I also think the Slaw RH Rotor pedals will be more precise since I'll be using my ankles instead of my legs to trim my tail rotor or rudder. What's interesting to me is how I believe that different type of foot motion will work better for me.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I've got the F-18 feeling pretty good too. Once again the G-Belt is making all the difference to feeling the motion, but not all of it's inputs are perfect. I still need to dial things in a bit more but they add quite a bit already. The D-Box absolutely does not have enough motion to feel like flying by itself, but it does add, just not a lot. The engine haptics continue to destroy any feeling of flying making the motion notchy, so they are a no-go for both jets and helicopters.

I have different settings in the D-Box for the Helicopter vs Plane. I'm able to add more roll and pitch motion on the heli because it doesn't bank like a jet does.

The SSA out of the box afterburner cranked up to about 62 gave a pretty impressive feel in the F-18. Push the throttle all the way forward and you hear the afterburners kick in and the afterburner feel builds up and then levels off. When you cut the afterburners, it winds down and fades away. Nice! The existing engine was a bit too much and I turned it down to about 38.

Still not sure why I have to invert my left and right throttles, but no biggie.

Overall the sound and feel are matching up well enough for the moment.

I turned off a lot off sound effects that just felt funny.

 

[Mr Latte]

SimShaker for Aviators thoughts so far.

They have a Base/1, Base/2, Base/6 folders with the stock wave effects.
There are a Custom/1, Custom/2, Custom/6 folders where you can put your custom effects. 1/2/6 = mono/stereo/5.1 ASIO

It will default to the stock effects unless you replace a specific file in the Custom folder.

They have Helicopter, piston plane, jet plane wav files. All are mono files.

There are settings for each aircraft, BUT they just control the volumes of each effect for that type of aircraft. I can not make a different helicopter rotor wave file for the different helicopters. I can only adjust the relative volumes of them.

The effects I'm using are currently mono effects going to both my TST and BK. Which means for any effect, one of them is effectively doing nothing.

This is very time consuming compared to SimHub.

Tweaking individual wave files I find I'm doing the following.
1. I repeat the original wave form once
2. I adjust the pitch to a frequency I want.
3. I cut the wave form so it loops a 0dB and is transitioning to the other direction.

I need to try to create stereo WAV files next, so that I'm feeding something useful to each transducer.

I'll look at the ASIO driver for 6 channels and creating surround sound wav files eventually. That bad news is that while I can share these files eventually, They would require that your transducers are identical and on the exact same channels.

I've got a good 23Hz 120ms helicopter chop wave file that I like so far that varies from very little to nearly 50% in the Wave file.

Next I would like to get a good Jet engine feel which I assume will mostly be on the TST, and I'd like to feel afterburners.

Basically I'm glad I have SSA working because I have no alternatives, but it is extremely low tech compared to SimHub.

Nice to see you getting some improvements....

For looping, it makes sense to have a smooth transition. I would have thought there was a place/group of people that already had some better effects, or focused on making improved effects for the more popular flight sims? Making effects could be time-consuming (tell me about it) but you can use/modify actual sound files as I highlighted and not need to build effects from simple tones. The creative art would be to apply specific elements to suit the individual hardware or body regions. In SSA/SSW you have to do this within the timescale and paste the elements you want into the individual channels.

SSA/SSW does not offer a great deal of control of the incoming telemetry and how we apply /control the effects or easily distribute them over a user's configuration, in the way Simhub offers. So each has certain pros/cons.

I assume, very few people are making effects with a focus on higher-end hardware or making the effects to utilise some form of installed hardware combination. Something, that's far beyond a multichannel seat cushion like I did with my own rig experimentation and shared approach applying BK/TST/EXC.

In sharing your honest opinions here, the motion even on an expensive D-Box while adding to the immersion, appears to not particularly engage you for flight sims with the limited amount of motion it offers.

To some extent, you expected this anyways but what seems disappointing is that the D-Box does not provide you with a really good tactile feel for the flight sims with engines.

I would have thought with their commercial connections and recognition within the motion industry they would have worked closely with at least some game developers to deliver really good effects for specific titles. Maybe most of the collaboration with such deelopers is focused more on the motion aspects?

The questions, which cant, it seems be easily answered without it being a drama. Exactly what does the D-Box do well with tactile that you or others do like and this is something even with racing sims I hope you shed more light on in future posts and with more time spent exploring what it offers.

So far the impression I get is that the D-Box tactile is a nice addition if you have little experience with tactile or experienced, only budget hardware options. Perhaps its best elements of immersion are the high-energy scenarios. In situations where movement is accompanied by tactile (bumps/curbs) in which it encompasses the user with more than one form of sensation.

Yet its effects, do seem to be rather basic, and as we are aware its options in altering the generated sensations are also quite restricted.


Question
Can the Gen 5 not also route game audio into the actuators?
Any settings you can show for this?

Err, you do have an alternative, game audio on its own is not good enough. We need to take the game audio and modify it in real-time so that it is more suited for tactile.

However, you are not limited to using it like (some do) with only a TST or single channel of operation. We see some sim cockpit companies like Vesaro for years have added a BK Advance but mmmmmm .

Mr Latte, says we can do much better and will show in the near future how to apply "Game Audio" to.

A) Specific units with their own increased performance abilities
B) Use specific units for game audio only tactile roles
C) Mix both the "game audio" tactile with "telemetry" effects tactile
D) Apply this in sims not supported by Simhub
E) Apply this from any 2-channel audio source or console

Not the place here to discuss but YES you still have more options Mark for more immersive tactile and your flight sim enjoyment.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I'm not trying to slam the D-box. It does a fantastic job on the track which I believe is it's primary goal. For Rally it also does a very good job and with a little help from other systems is very compelling as well. So for driving I think it accomplishes it's objectives.

I'm just trying to get as much out of it as I can and flight is just a bit out of it's wheelhouse, but it still helps sell the experience.

For flight the haptic effects for landing and for a weapon work well. The G-force discomfort felt like it was shaking me apart at default levels, but I could also dial that back and it's possible I might find some value in it. The weapon feeling is good for machine guns, it has the right tempo and feel to it, but is not as powerful as I'd like for other weapons.

For example, the NLRv3 has limited tactile software, but it had a very interesting weapon effect using the transducers that was excellent at feeling like a large cannon spinning up. It was a very powerful feeling and put a huge grin on my face. The NLRv3 also had a frequency slider to adjust where it was running.

I haven't started to play with the D-Box's newer capabilities of trigger based effects and I need to try that out. It's possible that I could link that to other buttons and get exactly what I'm looking for a larger cannon for example. That should probably be next on my list, right now!

Edit: These are actually pretty interesting feeling haptic effects!

If I can map and adjust them to run along with the DCS profile I think I could add a lot of interesting things.

 

[Mr Latte]

I don't think you are slamming it at all.

You just have to be realistic in highlighting what it does, how well it does those things, and how well that compares to other possibilities.

Here you highlight some comparisons between VR3 which it may have done better.

Possible that much of this will even be user preference in what users determine, prefer, and settle with as being good enough or to them not worth the extra effort or costs to make it even better.

Clearly, you have additional hardware already purchased and installed that is not being fully utilised. So certainly methods available to you to deliver better tactile than what VR3 offered or you find lacking with D-Box.

Do however look forward to any further findings you have with the D-Box and value the input or opinions you share.

 

[RCHeliguy]

The Issue I'm currently having is that I have a LOT of buttons and inputs and I'm having trouble assigning the effects to my controls because of that. I'll probably need to disconnect some of my devices to get the triggers setup correctly.

My first impression is that these adaptive effects could be a pretty powerful addition to flight, if I can get it to work properly on command.

It looks like this runs in addition to the normal DCS driver. I need to test it out in game now. Just to see if the one button I have on my throttle makes the effect work in game.

No joy! If I have the adaptive gaming on, the DCS Motion doesn't activate. So right now it is one or the other. I need to ask D-Box about this, because it looks pretty powerful and if I could use it in conjunction with what they have already it would be very good. Ideally you would just be able to add these triggered effects directly to the games motion profile.

I think there are times where it might even be nice to add some of these to driving titles for buttonbox controls. It could be a great selling feature.

 

[Mr Latte]

Yes, here is one of my points, this has not really been deeply looked at.
Well I have not seen in much detail before.

So, you select from a library of predefined effects and map tactile responses to in-game inputs. Then apply with (some control) the sensation for that response/activity

The question is, can you modify or build your own effects or only use from what is within the library?

I assume the same response goes to ALL actuators?
Or does this differ based on the effect having different sensations to each actuator?

 

[RCHeliguy]

Yes, here is one of my points, this has not really been deeply looked at.
Well I have not seen in much detail before.

So, you select from a library of predefined effects and map tactile responses to in-game inputs. Then apply with (some control) the sensation for that response/activity

The question is, can you modify or build your own effects or only use from what is within the library?

I assume the same response goes to ALL actuators?
Or does this differ based on the effect having different sensations to each actuator?

These effects are interesting and have obviously been designed to feel right on the D-Box platform. Some are all actuators doing the same thing, others have effects that cause the chassis to tilt. I could see repurposing a bunch of them for different uses in DCS.

They have effects that are just triggered and it looks like some are continuous based on an input like a slider. I think that has a lot of value in addition to what is telemetry based.

 

[Mr Latte]

We have seen other companies continue to bring tactile to motion.
So maybe this is part of Dbox seeking to stay ahead of other motion products/brands.

Can you confirm, what this can do is apply both a motion and tactile "combined response" to a "triggered" or mappable activity?

 

[RCHeliguy]

We have seen other companies continue to bring tactile to motion.
So maybe this is part of Dbox seeking to stay ahead of other motion products/brands.

Can you confirm, what this can do is apply both a motion and tactile "combined response" to a "triggered" or mappable activity?

Yes and no. It's really all haptics.

For example if you are using a game controller and are moving forward or side to side, it will rock the chassis, which is an effect.

The NLRv3 had this capability. You could map your flight stick to the X and Y axis and the seat would angle according to those inputs. I haven't found that capability in the D-Box system. However, I tried using that capability with Eve Valkyrie on the NLRv3 and all it did was throw off my aim pretty badly. It didn't feel right. So I'm not sure that's really an issue.

 

[RCHeliguy]

While I'm not there yet, as impressed as I am with the G-Belt in DCS, I am wondering how much more the G-Seat brings to this.

Having the left or right sides of the seat pushing into you during a roll and having the seat push you from behind when you are climbing and then the seat belt pulling when you are diving like I have now would bring symmetry to this. As it is I may setup the seat belts to pull both during a climb or dive. I'm starting to wonder if having those sensations would be better than motion for flight since you could sustain a given sideways force indefinitely rather than being limited to any extent of motion.

Even the longest actuator systems can't sustain G-forces and in flight where you may be in a long climb or dive, there is just no way to mimic that. But sustained body pressure can be held indefinitely.

So at this point, I think that a G-Belt and G-Seat would be more important than motion for flight IN PLANES.

However IN HELICOPTERS to better represent the cyclic inputs, having longer actuators would make more of a difference.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Got some of these.

3D printed something to stick this to besides my chassis.

40 series USB Cable organizer mount by RCHeliGuy

This is a simple platform to mount a rubber cable organizer, specifically the one or two cable circular mounts like those below. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07PTZ7LLR?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details&th=1 It uses an M8x16 counter sunk bolt and M8 t-nut.

www.thingiverse.com

This is much better. The USB cables easily push through the soft rubbery material and hold in place. Perfect for temporary flight controls.

The last 3D printed part to route cables is shown below in front of this, but is no longer on my rig. Into the old prints box.

 

[RCHeliguy]

D-Box Haptics vs. Tactile update.

I was pleasantly surprised by the quality of the feel of many of the canned Adaptive Game haptic effects the D-Box has. They feel very interesting and are effective at conveying a specific effect. I think this is full of possibilities.

I'm actually a bit surprised at how good some of these simple effects feel.

The bad news is that I can't currently use any of this as an addition to the supported games, so I can't actually use this feature for anything yet, and I would love to use some of these types of effect in DCS. That said, I also believe that their may be complications with integration of a myriad of haptic effects and motion.

Where we are right now.

1. I like having both Tactile and Haptics, but right now I could be completely satisfied with tactile only, but absolutely not with haptics only. Haptics currently falls short in too many important ways. I'm also comfortable stating this regardless of seat and pedal isolation, because this isn't a matter of the effects not getting through, this is a matter of effects being completely missing, of lower simpler quality, or interfering with motion.

2. My current Tactile effects are both more refined and more plentiful. By that I mean that there are no Haptic equivalents to many of the tactile effects that I currently enjoy and the tactile effects feel better in some cases than the haptic effects. In other cases like flight, the engine haptic effect can impact the operation of motion in a very negative way. In this instance I suspect that they will eventually fix this issue with software.

What the poor flight motion/engine haptic integration tells me, is that it is more complex to integrate haptic effects with motion without artifacts that hurt motion. I believe this means that D-Box has more work to do to get their excellent motion paired well with haptics. I suspect that flight is also a different enough type of motion from driving that it may show this issue more.

3. I see a lot of room for D-Box Haptics to grow and I guarantee that D-Box has not reached their full potential with this. They are very actively moving forward and I'm excited by what they will do in the future. I think combining motion and haptics does complicate their challenge and I give them a lot of credit for what they have created so far.

Let me break this down further.

For driving, SimHub is very highly featured and capable of a great deal. Take Mr. Latte spending 1000's of hours building multi-layered effects that work well together and compare that with D-Box haptics are not currently even remotely in the same league. Let me stress this, not even close. Not as many effects and not nearly the control. I also think that D-Box haptics are unlikely to give the user the kind of controls we enjoy with SimHub because it could be easy to destroy how the motion feels, by bad use of haptics. Keeping the tactile separate eliminates this issue and allows much more experimentation without worry of ruining the motion.

For flying, SimShaker for Aviators is cumbersome and not very full featured, but it still gives me some effects that the D-Box haptics do not currently have the ability to tap. However D-Box has some flight effects that I do not have in SSA and the Haptic effects generally feel better except for the engine feel which ruins motion. So I very much like having both for flight. I just wish I had something as full featured as SimHub available for flight.

Conclusion: The D-Box has more useful Haptic range than I expected. It is currently software limited to leveraging it to it's full potential and is "currently" deficient in a number of areas. However their software is a moving target and I know there is active development going on and it will continue to improve over time.

The million dollar question is whether they are potentially capable of competing with a full tactile system....

I'm going to qualify my answer. I think it may be physically possible with their system to get close enough for many people. I see glimmers of what it has the potential to do, and I'll eagerly await any new features and improvements that they continue to make. I'm all for leveraging anything that D-Box gets right and they do a lot of things very right!

 

[Arsen Melkonyan]

Да, настоящая шлейка стоит недешево, но я очень доволен этой покупкой.

Пряжки не требуют усилий, чтобы расстегнуться и очень легко затянуться, и они абсолютно не расстегиваются . Это лучше днем и ночью. Как будто они на самом деле разработаны с расчетом на то, что они будут нормально ослабляться и затягиваться! Иди разберись!

6-точечные противолодочные ремни определенно более удобны, чем 5-точечные. Он по-прежнему немного натягивает промежность, но, по крайней мере, в стороны, а у моего G-Belt есть прочная опора, за которую можно тянуть.

View attachment 516364
View attachment 516366
View attachment 516368
Ремни Crow подходят для G-Belt, потому что пряжка и металлический конец ослабевают и сразу же соскальзывают.
View attachment 516365

 

[RCHeliguy]

The deed is done. They should ship by the end of next week.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Just ran another couple 8 pin power cables down to my video card. The Corsair 1200W PSU may be a bit long in the tooth, but it should work well enough.

Checked to see how well a larger 4090 card would fit. Plenty of room!

 

[RCHeliguy]

Figuring out how to mount the Slaw RH Rotors.

I think I'll bolt the back end of it to an extension plate and the front end directly to the square aluminum tubing. I don't think it will fit under my pedal deck, so I will need to make the full aluminum mount quick release.

 

[Arsen Melkonyan]

Да, настоящая шлейка стоит недешево, но я очень доволен этой покупкой.

Пряжки не требуют усилий, чтобы расстегнуться и очень легко затянуться, и они абсолютно не расстегиваются . Это лучше днем и ночью. Как будто они на самом деле разработаны с расчетом на то, что они будут нормально ослабляться и затягиваться! Иди разберись!

6-точечные противолодочные ремни определенно более удобны, чем 5-точечные. Он по-прежнему немного натягивает промежность, но, по крайней мере, в стороны, а у моего G-Belt есть прочная опора, за которую можно тянуть.

View attachment 516364
View attachment 516366
View attachment 516368
Ремни Crow подходят для G-Belt, потому что пряжка и металлический конец ослабевают и сразу же соскальзывают.
View attachment 516365

Hello! I want to buy the same belts crow 11152, I wanted to know opinion,is it worth ordering the optionwith sewn-in nylon pillows? Or will tactility with pillows decrease?