Is VR dead?

[RCHeliguy]

Same ole, same ole. The only thing I got out of this was that having a full wall mirror can mess up tracking which seems pretty obvious. He did say that it felt heavier than his last headset.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Gamermuscles is doing a live stream, so we should get some actual sim racing feedback soon.

LOL!!!!! He specifically called out Beat Saber as being a CRAP demo of tracking ability and said these track better than the Rift does and are the best tracking available.

This should be a good benchmark since he is running the following:

CPU i7 6700k OC to 4.4 GHZ
GPU MSI 1080TI​

 

[RCHeliguy]

So far:

Cons:
Headset feels a bit heavy (about same as Vive, Vive Pro) and is a bit warm unless you have air conditioning, he doesn't.
The color contrast is a bit washed out like the Rift S ( LED ) He's not sure if he would notice in game. ( He did notice this in one fps he was playing ) In a well lit room he said it's not a big deal, but in other higher contrast environments it is noticeable.
Horizontal FOV hasn't impressed him. He was hoping for more and thinks Valve oversold the FOV improvement.
Takes a bit of adjustment to the sweet spot ( a bit of a PITA) but once there everything looks great.
He wishes both the base stations and hand controllers where cheaper and he would have been happy to have less elaborate Rift style controllers to bring the cost down. In fact he eventually said he didn't like the placement of the D-pad.

Pros:
Audio is (amazing, awesome, incredible), sounds like speakers
Very solid construction
Loves the hand controllers (bloody awesome) even if he doesn't care about finger tracking, He doesn't think the finger tracking is perfect.
Vertical FOV is where he saw the improvement
Says it's very comfortable, more comfortable than the Vive/Vive Pro, Complained about the comfort of the Oculus Quest as being hard to wear for more than an hour. Seemed to talk down about the Rift S although said it l had good visuals.
It's very sharp and clear, (clarity is really nice) god rays are not bad and circular Fresnel rings are not noticeable
Blocks light really well, but not a priority of his
SDE is not noticeable
His term, "It has a large eye box" or sharp in focus area to look around in.
Easy to put/on and take off without having to adjust anything
He said the tracking was really good and so far he only has one base unit set up.
Says the resolution looks better than Vive Pro

He specifically said the this tracking is better than the Rift CV1 and MILES better than inside out tracking. He suggested that the Light house is 99.9% perfect, CV1 95% perfect, and Rift S 90% and that for playing room scale games you want that tracking accuracy.

He mentioned that CV1 -> Rift S (30% better) -> Index ( 30% better )

Index is much more comfortable, with better image quality, with better tracking, and much better tracking than a Rift S. He said it was miles better than the original Vive and 10-15% better than Vive Pro but with much better headphones and better comfort and better hand controllers. He did say the image quality was crisper and clearer.

They sent my base stations in separate shipments. One arrived.
The same base can be wall mounted or sit horizontally with two 1/4" threaded mount points depending on orientation. Has a ball head for adjustment that tightens. The power cables seem crazy long.

 

[RCHeliguy]

MRTV is now saying that the FOV on the Index is larger both vertically and horizontally than any of the other normal scale headsets, but he complained about glare in beat saber. "The sound is truly amazing all the previews about the sound were right." The microphone on the Index is also excellent quality and was overall amazing quality. Says it screams quality.

He tried to run Beat Saber at 144Hz and said his computer couldn't handle it and made comments like no system could handle it. He also said he couldn't see any difference at 120Hz which he could run.

i7 8700k with 1080Ti

BTW I know for a fact he can run 144Hz, but he would need to drop the resolution a bit. Tested did it with a 1080, but had to drop the resolution.

He said that it's obvious that the field of view is noticeably better than the Rift S and more comfortable as well.
He said it was truly comfortable.

Absolutely no lens distortion.
He thought it was amazing he could read line 10 on the eye chart. He said the Rift would get to line 8.
The quality is amazing, but the blacks aren't black, "bright black".

Said the SDE isn't noticeable unless you look for it, but you won't notice it.
Better SDE than Pimax, just looks better.

After his initial praise of the Reverb, he was even suggesting that he wasn't sure that HP had things worked out yet such that he could recommend it.

Compared to Pimax 5K+ he said the Index has better visual fidelity, plus is is much more comfortable, and of course has great audio. Pimax has more FOV, but said the FOV of the Index was pretty sweet.

Says he would use the Index over the Reverb as a daily driver because of the amazing controllers which are so much better than the controllers with the Reverb and because the Index is so much more comfortable. He says Reverb's vertical FOV was very disappointing and the Index has better FOV both horizontally and vertically, but especially vertically.

Hmm... Interesting to see the conflicting comments about FOV. I wonder if it is really that highly dependent on how it fits your face.

He demonstrated pass through video.

His bottom line:
Pimax vs Index: Index wins easily
Reverb vs Index: Index wins
Rift S vs Index: Index wins

In terms of comfort, visual fidelity, controllers and best audio in the field even compared to Vive deluxe audio strap.

Reverb only wins in absolute resolution and no SDE
Pimax only wins in horizontal FOV

He plans to use this as his daily driver which actually surprises me, it sounded like he was sighing a lot early on and coming off almost negative while saying nice things about it like he didn't want to like it, but then he seemed to change direction and attitude completely.

 

[Steve D]

Compared to Pimax 5K+ he said the Index has better visual fidelity, plus is is much more comfortable, and of course has great audio. Pimax has more FOV, but said the FOV of the Index was pretty sweet.

Pimax only wins in horizontal FOV

Being a Pimax 5k+ user and having tested out the Index for a few hours so far, I wouldn't argue with those statements at all.

I have to say that at 90hz the Index has blitzed my expectations. The visuals, despite a far lower pixel count compared to Pimax, are outstanding and have a clarity and sharpness that I haven't seen before. Near text clarity even exceeds the Pimax, albeit it's close.

Two areas where it does fall down IMO, compared to the Pimax, are the aforementioned FOV, which is noticeably less but still better than the Rift and a poorer sweet spot when I glance to the sides and in the mirrors without moving my head. With the Pimax the image is clear, with the Index it's a little blurry until you move your head slightly, at which point clarity is excellent. I may well be able to make an adjustment to improve that though.

Very, very impressive product and that's coming from someone who is really very happy with the Pimax.

 

[RCHeliguy]

What are your thoughts on the FOV. Is the vertical improvement noticeable? How does the horizontal FOV look to you?

Very excited to get mine!!!
I have placed and spun up one base station high in one corner of my room with plenty of power cord to spare. The other will be well out of the way as well. I doubt anyone would notice them unless they looked for them so my wife will be happy.

I'm looking forward to experiencing the improved tracking in my room scale games!

 

[Steve D]

I've not noticed the improvement in vertical yet, even if it is there, as horizontal (for sim racing only) is where I want it and it falls a bit short of the Pimax in Normal mode. Regardless, the Index is a very high quality package and it has no competition in that regard. I also found it incredibly comfortable and very light, especially coming from the Pimax but again I never found that in any way a problem for a seated VR experience.

 

[HoiHman]

The Index is amazing, right now there's no competition. This is THE headset to get right now.

 

[RCHeliguy]

The Index is amazing, right now there's no competition. This is THE headset to get right now.

It has looked that way from the beginning, but it is still always great to get confirmation

 

[HoiHman]

It has looked that way from the beginning, but it is still always great to get confirmation

It exceeds my expectations in every single way
- Comfort
- Clarity
- Presence (dept perception)
- Audio ( loud enough to cancel the loud GS_5 panels

 

[Steve D]

Just played rF2 (MCR at Ibarra) with 18 AI at 120hz. Absolutely incredible and without any drop in performance. Off to AC to try the same.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Just played rF2 (MCR at Ibarra) with 18 AI at 120hz. Absolutely incredible and without any drop in performance. Off to AC to try the same.

Can you tell a difference between 90 and 120Hz ?

And was that native 120Hz or 60Hz reprojected to 120Hz ?

And what was your CPU / GPU ?

Feeling a lot of love today

 

[Steve D]

To echo @HoiHman's comment re. audio, I use a 5.1 system for external audio (and I like to crank it up) and headphones for Crewchief. I was worried that the latter would be drowned out, with the speakers being off the ear. Not a bit of it and if anything the immersion is increased as the external sound isn't being muffled any longer. Very clever.

 

[Steve D]

It's hard to describe but yes, it's just got an extra level of smoothness and sheen.

Native 120 I believe. At least that was the option I ticked and I'd disabled smoothing.

Oc'd 8700k / 2080ti

 

[RCHeliguy]

To echo @HoiHman's comment re. audio, I use a 5.1 system for external audio (and I like to crank it up) and headphones for Crewchief. I was worried that the latter would be drowned out, with the speakers being off the ear. Not a bit of it and if anything the immersion is increased as the external sound isn't being muffled any longer. Very clever.

Do many sims support splitting the audio stream like that?
I've never tried that and now that I have a full sized motherboard I could easily add another sound card. My rig sits in the middle of a 5.1 system with 4500W peak 16" subwoofer that can literally shake the walls!

I've actually had issues trying to pick anything but the Oculus headphones for games. For example Beat Saber will let me run asynchronous USB out to my DAC, but In Death runs audio to my headphones no matter what I chose as a default.

I'd love to hear the specifics of how this is accomplished.

 

[Deleted member 197115]

Very nice article from ArsTechnica on Index and state of current VR in general.
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2019...e-best-virtual-reality-system-to-buy-in-2019/

 

[RCHeliguy]

That seems fair. He says that long periods of VR are much better and less fatiguing at 120Hz, that the everything about the Index is done well.

I see his point about commercial work requiring better color gamut and contrast which OLED displays produce. For gaming I'll take higher refresh rates and tighter pixels, and I think Valve made the right choice for gaming.

Valve made no bones about the fact that this is an enthusiast headset not priced for the masses. The new hand controllers do have a new set of features that won't be supported by many games but it they will also do everything the other controllers do with the best tracking available.

My take is that the Index is exactly what I wanted, but that Oculus is going for the masses at a lower price point improving ease of entry in every way.

The Quest is a home run expected to sell 1M copies by the end of the year. The Rift S is the easiest to set up VR headset for the PC. If it's true that the new XBox will support the Rift S, they will sell a pile.

So there is the enthusiast end which is pricey and the lower end that will sell in much higher numbers.

Tech from the high end will trickledown so I'm very happy with what the Valve Index is doing.

Eventually we will have everything we want. For now the Index is the best gaming VR system.

Eventually we will get more FOV, and eventually we will get fast refresh rates with better color, and eventually we will get higher resolutions.

The fact that many people are dropping resolution to get higher refresh rates supports the fact that higher refresh rates matter.

This is why the Index has some legs. Over time we will eventually be able to run games at 144 fps as our computers catchup. Then we'll be able to add SS beyond that. It will look great now and only look better over time.

 

[RCHeliguy]

It's hard to describe but yes, it's just got an extra level of smoothness and sheen.

Native 120 I believe. At least that was the option I ticked and I'd disabled smoothing.

Oc'd 8700k / 2080ti

Have you looked at the CPU and GPU percentages? Are you finding that your CPU and GPU are pretty well maxed out, or does it look like the highest CPU core is running a higher percentage than the GPU is?

 

[HugoB]

@HoiHman does the Index work with SFX100, can you hold it with your hands or do you get grey screens, like the Vive Pro and Pimax are having?
Are you using Lighthouse 2.0? How many? Did you need controllers to set it up?

Is it hot on your face in the summer? Can you race for hours continuously? Because didn’t you have your Rift CV1 without foam hanging in front of your face (very cool, no trapped air)?

Do you need to have your Index audio louder than Rift (relatively) in order to drain out the noise of the motion/GS-5? Is it better than Rift CV1?

Are you getting 120fps with native SS in AC/rF2 etc? What compromise did you need to make if any? You got the 2080Ti right? What CPU?

Thanks!

P.S. what about your Reverb? Any good compared to Index?

 

[Steve D]

Have you looked at the CPU and GPU percentages? Are you finding that your CPU and GPU are pretty well maxed out, or does it look like the highest CPU core is running a higher percentage than the GPU is?

• rFactor 2 + 18 AI
• SteamVR - 90hz, no smoothing, SS 200%, 9m pixels per eye
• GPUmax 70%, CPUmax 44%
• Frame timing circa 8ms and 6ms respectively
• 90hz maintained.

I also tested at the default SS150%, 6.7m pixels per eye and saw 60% GPU, 40% CPU and frame timing of 6ms and 5ms. 90hz all day and visuals were on a par with the cranked up SS.

Gonna stress the SS further to see where I can max out GPU usage and the drop off occurs and then do the same at 120hz and see what happens.