DD wheel or Motion

[Cote Dazur]

If you have both, I would like to know what you think I should do first.
I drive exclusively in VR, I have a CSR Elite, the father of the 2.5, I use SimShaker wheel with a butt kicker. My goal in any SIM is immersion, the feeling of being there is all I am after.
Should I upgrade my wheel for a DD first or should I get a motion system?

 

[RCHeliguy]

BTW in terms of work, motion systems run the full gamut. The NLRv3 is very easy to dial in with a few sliders and get to feel great. The support for various sim titles is extensive. The much more expensive D-Box system is likewise extremely well supported. The DIY systems like the SFX-100 can work well, but are more of a project.

 

[RasmusP]

Well said!
For me there are a few things why I, myself, don't need a DD wheel right now:
1. I lower the power output quite often
2. I never out the resistance to 0
3. I sometimes feel like the wheel spins too swiftly
4. I often lower the details/apply smoothing
5. My hands sometimes hurt from the raw forces
6. Basically 4.1: the punches are so raw that it feels like graining sometimes.

These 6 points would be "more" with a DD wheel. So I would need to reduce things more with it. Sure, I would gain "clarity".
But that's not worth it for me.

But I read quite a lot about people always running the csw 2.5 at 100% and still wanting more power. Well if that's the case, a DD wheel is a must of course

 

[RasmusP]

This is weird, a thread talking down direct drive wheels versus belt drive motors. I must have traveled into a parallel universe.

Not talking down at all. You can get a similar feeling from any DD plus more clarity, punch etc but then the difference isn't as night and day anymore and might not be worth spending 1.5k for this and not getting motion.

Would I take a DD wheel, swapped without paying anything with my csw? All day, every day!

 

[RCHeliguy]

FWIW I have my CSW 2.5 set at about 100% across the board, but I feel like it is working well and I don't feel like I need more. Not only that but I have a lot of other people on my rig. Probably averaging about 3-5 a month lately and I don't like the idea of the need for an emergency button. I had a 12 and 13 year old on my rig recently for extended sessions.

Going back to your earlier point, there is a difference between buying something because you sense something missing, and quite another to be happy with what you have and want something else because it is there.

I upgraded my Fanatec pedals that were working fine because I wanted something different. I wanted better brake modulation, a stiffer throttle spring and better clutch cam action( let off). I had the stiff springs on my Fanatec and I wasn't happy with them. They still felt WAY too light. I had to hold my foot back so I didn't instantly floor the throttle. It didn't give me the control I wanted.

If there is something that bothers me, I will fix it, but if nothing feels broken, I'm not going to bother upgrading it just to see if I like it better. I'm perfectly happy now, so I'll wait until I actually have an itch or reason to upgrade.

 

[Cote Dazur]

What frame do you have OP?

I have a self made frame, I will have to upgrade to something stiffer if/when I go motion, it will be part of the project. I am not even worrying about which motion, as I am still debating what is coming next.

If you are happy with your wheel: get motion.

I am perfectly happy with my wheel, only considering DD as a lot of people are saying it is more immersive. My last change was gtx1080t1/cv1, last year, up from a AMDgpu/dk2. money well spent, feel good on that front. Motion is a lot of money in many case, I do not feel up to building thishttps://www.racedepartment.com/threads/the-simfeedback-ac-diy-motion-simulator-thread.159524/
so it will have to be an existing motion product.

 

[RasmusP]

EDIT: a bit out of context now, oops!
Anyway:
In my opinion a DD wheel might not be the magic bullet for everyone and therefore getting motion might be the better decision with an already good wheel.

It's a bit like asking to upgrade your car with a racing suspension or a better engine. Depends.
If you already got 600 HP with a nice mapping I don't think getting 850 HP would be a better upgrade than getting a nice racing suspension over a standard street suspension.

 

[ThugUK]

I have a self made frame, I will have to upgrade to something stiffer if/when I go motion, it will be part of the project. I am not even worrying about which motion, as I am still debating what is coming next.


I am perfectly happy with my wheel, only considering DD as a lot of people are saying it is more immersive. My last change was gtx1080t1/cv1, last year, up from a AMDgpu/dk2. money well spent, feel good on that front. Motion is a lot of money in many case, I do not feel up to building thishttps://www.racedepartment.com/threads/the-simfeedback-ac-diy-motion-simulator-thread.159524/
so it will have to be an existing motion product.

My rig is also self (designed and) built.
Don't be put off by the DIY route SFX100 as its actually relatively easy to do if you have a bit of experience with a socket set etc.

 

[RaceNut]

Considering how taste in FFB varies among community members, it should be no surprise that the value of a DD-wheel's characteristics varies too. Personally, my strongest sense of connection to the virtual car comes through the wheel. Remove tactile and motion and I can still drive just fine; remove FFB and I'll struggle (falling far off my usual pace) for quite some time. Of course, some of us may rely on such kinetic-effects more than others. For me, it's also an important part of immersion.

My motion and tactile come from a D-box system and I'm working on adding my own version of G-force effects to the seat. I do think that all of these forms of feedback benefit us even more when combined with VR and for me, they are all important aspects of increasing immersion in Sim-racing / driving titles. When we combine all of these layers, it generally occurs to us that there is a proper balance-point where the various layers support (not overwhelm) the others.

 

[Cote Dazur]

remove FFB and I'll struggle

To be fair the choice is not between motion and FFB, but between better FFB and motion.
My experience with a better wheel, starting from a DFGT, then a Porsche Fanatec to my Elite, is that every upgrade brought a significant amelioration of my immersion and I would expect DD to be an other significant step up.

Don't be put off by the DIY route SFX100 as its actually relatively easy to do if you have a bit of experience with a socket set etc.

From browsing the thread, it seems to a little more elaborate than putting pieces together, which I am comfortable with, from successfully assembling IKEA furniture, LOL, but, on a more serious note, even changing a complete engine on my ZX6 track bike or even building my gaming PC
The machining parts, 3D printing and electronic connections are intimidating.
Congrats on your rig, it looks sharp.

 

[RCHeliguy]

I was recently informed of some refurbished D-Box systems at very reduced prices pretty close to SFX-100 and NLRv3 pricing. I'm still getting details. I'm not sure what the warranty or repair costs are if an actuator fails, etc..

Edit: Hmm... a 4 x 4250 system for under 7K 1 yr replacement warranty from a dealer. Actuators saw use in a home theater system for a number of years.

And there are 4 full systems being reconfigured from this one home theater system.

 

[RaceNut]

I was recently informed of some refurbished D-Box systems at very reduced prices pretty close to SFX-100 and NLRv3 pricing. I'm still getting details. I'm not sure what the warranty or repair costs are if an actuator fails, etc..

Edit: Hmm... a 4 x 4250 system for under 7K 1 yr replacement warranty from a dealer. Actuators saw use in a home theater system for a number of years.

And there are 4 full systems being reconfigured from this one home theater system.

If I had it to do over again, D-box would not be my first choice; there are better values available. Besides the SFX-100, there is PT-actuator that offers much more travel for the same price (or less) than a discounted (used or refurb) D-box kit.

The 3-actuator kit may actually be more effective than 4, because greater angles can be achieved. If the rig is heavy, then 4 actuators may be needed in some cases. 2-actuator systems can also be quite effective at a lower cost. D-box systems tend to be quite reliable but, repairs (if needed) are not cheap.

 

[RCHeliguy]

@RaceNut Good points, but the key difference is software. The D-Box is more like the NLRv3 in that regard. It just works and supports almost all titles.

The other difference is that the magnetic actuators are nearly silent and pretty bulletproof. It appears they are more efficient as well with a lower power requirement. 220V x 5A for 4 x 4250 actuators.

I seriously doubt I'm going to make this jump right now. I'm very happy with my NLRv3. Plus it sips power relatively speaking ( 350W on 110V ) However I would take a D-Box motion system over any of the others all things considered.

 

[Beef36]

.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Trying to modulate your brakes on the T300 pedals must have been a challenge and probably took a lot of your concentration away from the motion.

There is always the issue of sensitization. If I put a bunch of non racing sim people in my rig, which happens frequently. They don't have a comparison point to go from and nothing to miss.

If you have spent countless hours with high end equipment, and you've spent hours dialing in your motion, transducer vibrations, wheel sensitivity etc.. you are going to be much more critical of losing something you've focused a lot of time on.

So I think that people who are already invested a lot of time in configuring their DD wheels and gotten used to them would miss them a lot more than people who have something that works for them and add a completely new aspect to their rig. Basically the overwhelming feeling of loss would overshadow the new aspect even if what they were sensitized to was more subtle than the new aspect.

I've heard a number of people say that they didn't feel a night and day difference after adding DD to their rig, until they went back. So the difference felt subtle until it was taken away. Once they were used to it they felt the loss more severely. Others have screamed from the mountain tops how incredible the difference was. It depends a lot on the individual.

 

[RaceNut]

@RCHeliguy
The biggest difference between the D-box and PT-actuator system is the cost; a new 6" D-box system is roughly 6-times more expensive ($24k / $12k used). D-box may offer better tactile effects (whole rig) but, a good transducer setup could fill the gaps at much lower cost.

I find the 1.5" D-box system to be a bit short in travel but, any 6" system is also going to produce slower transition times over the increased distance for Sim-racing use. I think a 3" system would be an excellent choice, especially where Rally and off-road titles are played.

In terms of software, D-box does cover a lot of titles but, the settings are quite limited in many cases. A telemetry-based system would offer users much more control but, the D-box approach is closer to being a "set it and forget it" affair. Also, mods (RBRcz for example) get no D-box support at all; a more DIY tuning approach could benefit in such cases.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Thanks! I think I'll stick with my NLRv3 for the time being. It just works. Motion systems are continuing to advance and over time I'm sure it will just get better. For Rally the NLRv3 works really well since it can toss you around pretty quickly over a fairly good angle. It would take a decent amount of travel on an actuator based system to match what it has.

While I'm sure motion could be better than what I have, what I have now is definitely enough to sell the idea to my brain that I'm really in the virtual car I'm driving, so for now mission accomplished.

 

[Dan Costa]

The V3 supports up to 130kg. If you are lightweight guy, you could get very imaginative on what you could put on top of the v3, other than just your seat.

 

[RCHeliguy]

The V3 supports up to 130kg. If you are lightweight guy, you could get very imaginative on what you could put on top of the v3, other than just your seat.

Please keep in mind that there is a torque arm multiplier issue here. The weight they list should be centered over the pivot point. If you were to run pedals or even a wheel base off of it, you would need to multiply that weight by the torque arm to get an equivalent weight to what they list.

What I can tell you is that in use you don't really notice. It may run counter to what you expect, but your arms and legs just naturally adjust without you thinking about it. I never have a problem grabbing the hand brake or stick shift.

 

[RCHeliguy]

FYI, this is my build thread if you are interested.
https://www.racedepartment.com/thre...cockpit-with-motion-and-tactile-build.165289/

 

[Dan Costa]

Please keep in mind that there is a torque arm multiplier issue here. The weight they list should be centered over the pivot point. If you were to run pedals or even a wheel base off of it, you would need to multiply that weight by the torque arm to get an equivalent weight to what they list.

What I can tell you is that in use you don't really notice. It may run counter to what you expect, but your arms and legs just naturally adjust without you thinking about it. I never have a problem grabbing the hand brake or stick shift.

thats true. It would have to be really lightweight with something like this (only 9kg) + 10kg of reinforcements.

But to be on topic, I would chose motion for sure. Regarding wheels, there's sort of diminishing returns if you already have a good classic wheel.