DD wheel or Motion

Cote Dazur

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If you have both, I would like to know what you think I should do first.
I drive exclusively in VR, I have a CSR Elite, the father of the 2.5, I use SimShaker wheel with a butt kicker. My goal in any SIM is immersion, the feeling of being there is all I am after.
Should I upgrade my wheel for a DD first or should I get a motion system?
 
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diablo2112

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IMHO, DD first. It'll be cheaper than a motion system, and the difference is just incredible. Any DD system is night-and-day ahead of a non-DD setup, you can't miss with any of them, frankly. Good luck.
 
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RaceNut

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I think I'd go for the DD-wheel. Being that you already use tactile feedback, adding more feedback through the wheel may provide the next level of immersion for you. I still rate the DD-wheel as one of my best purchases in Sim-racing, despite having built a very good tactile setup and later adding motion.

Motion can add a lot of immersion but, the cost can be a big limiting factor. My top picks for motion are the SFX-100 or GS-5 Seat.
 

ThugUK

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Motion definitely (for immersion).
I have the SFX100, plus a AF DD v2 wheel and couldn't live without either, but I think that the biggest jump in immersion was the SFX100.
Don't get me wrong, the DD wheel is also great for immersion, but whether its night or day from your CSR only you can answer.
There is something about feeling all the road bumps and sausage curbs in your whole body/rig that you will not get with a wheel.

Something to bear in mind, not every game out there supports motion. Although those that do will have you looking for more and more laser scanned tracks etc.
 
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Jeremy Ford

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I would always put a DD in front motion as a priority. I have both, and often I don't run the motion platform, and I don't miss it terribly, though it is very cool to have. But for a force feedback comparison video on my channel, I ran a T300 and DD back-to-back and I definitely missed the power and detail of the DD versus the weaker T300.
 

Cote Dazur

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Very interesting comments so far. The majority says DD as an upgrade to a decent wheel is more immersive than motion.
I am a little surprised, as I was thinking the motion will provide a lot of feedback that the wheel will not have to provide anymore, so my wheel who is already very detailed and feels adequate will be great with motion.
 

wajdi

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I would always put a DD in front motion as a priority. I have both, and often I don't run the motion platform, and I don't miss it terribly, though it is very cool to have. But for a force feedback comparison video on my channel, I ran a T300 and DD back-to-back and I definitely missed the power and detail of the DD versus the weaker T300.
Sorry, but how do you have motion and don’t run it often?
I have motion and now for me I can’t race without motion.... it feels damn flat without it.
For me motion and VR are a most now.
I have DD system and it’s great to have but if you give me for example the CSW V2.5 I will be very fine to use it instead of the DD, but without motion?!No way.
 

RCHeliguy

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I haven't gotten DD yet, but the difference between motion an not having motion is night and day to me. I play in VR exclusively and motion completes the deal. Without it everything is lifeless and the immersion is not complete.

I guess this is a personal thing, but I can't play without motion. Everything feels dead without it.

I'm using an NLRv3 system and have Heusinkveld Sprint Pedals and hand brake and a Pro Sim H pattern shifter. That shifter is about the same cost as a DD system, but I'm still using my CS 2.5 wheelbase. So you can see where my priorities are.

I'm still waiting for the dust to settle. It appears there is a lot of software that is still being worked on for both the SimCube 2 and DD2 systems. I'd like to wait until they are feature complete and support more titles.

That said, I love how my system works and I feel like I'm in the middle of things which means everything to me especially in something like Dirt Rally. Without motion it is dead dead dead. With motion it is freaking amazing!

Anyway just another viewpoint to add to the collection.
 

Jeremy Ford

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Sorry, but how do you have motion and don’t run it often?
I have motion and now for me I can’t race without motion.... it feels damn flat without it.
For me motion and VR are a most now.
I have DD system and it’s great to have but if you give me for example the CSW V2.5 I will be very fine to use it instead of the DD, but without motion?!No way.
Don't know what to tell you, I can take it or leave it with motion. However, I do always run a transducer to add a tactical feel around me. So I do appreciate what an extra physical element adds to the overall immersion.
 
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Cote Dazur

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my priority order would be:

- PC
- Visuals (i.e. monitors, VR)
- Sound
- Chassis
- Wheel / Force Feedback Systems
- Pedals
- Tactile Feedback
- Key Peripherals (e.g. shifters and handbrakes)
- Other Peripherals (e.g. button boxes, telemetry monitors, seat belts etc.)
- Motion (Seat or Chassis)
- Motion (G-Force)
I notice VR is not on your list, as I interpret "Visuals (i.e. monitors, VR)" as good graphic.
To me VR is top of the list for immersion, which is making me think, it would be nice if it is mentioned in the comments if one is using VR or not.
I know that to me, my tactile is just my seat vibrating when driving looking at the monitor which is fun and when in VR my tactile feels like I feel what the cars does in my seat, which is great and immersive.
So I would expect Motion to feel different as well if driving watching a monitor or in VR.:)

I play in VR exclusively and motion completes the deal
Interesting, especially in light of what I just wrote.:)
 

Andrew_WOT

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Wheel and VR are a must for immersion.
Pedals for consistency.
Upgrade PC to get good visuals in VR.
The rest is just not that relevant nice-to-have.
 

RCHeliguy

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For me the motion is MUST have. I would say it is as important as using VR. The DD not so much.

I have no doubt the a DD wheel adds detail, but without motion I would not feel like I was there. I don't have DD, but I feel like I'm there and the immersion is complete.

Not only that, but without motion most people who drive in VR on my rig got sick. With motion that has not been an issue.

Now before you say that since I don't have DD, I don't know what I'm missing, I would remind you that I've driven a vast number of cars over the years, some of them had more road feel than others.

As it is I can easily say that the CS 2.5 with the right software gives me more FFB than I feel in my daily driver and a number of other cars I've driven, so while I'm sure FFB can be improved, not having DD absolutely does not break immersion.
 
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ThugUK

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Those that have stated to go for a wheel instead of motion, which motion rig do you own?
That could have a big bearing on your recommendation.

Visuals are good, depending on what you have now. But to spend £1000-1500 on a graphics card to give you a few more FPS for the next few years is not money well spent in my eyes.
A DD wheel is money well spent, but not when you are already happy with the wheel you have. If you were coming from a G27 then maybe.
A motion rig (not just transducers or a seat mover) should last MANY years and is an investment and will not lose that much money if you decide to move on.

The OP is not asking what is relevant, they are asking what will give the best immersion.
A full motion sim rig will give the biggest and best immersion than ANY other piece of hardware (alongside a VR unit which unlike the motion rig will have a limited life because the next best one will be released after 2 or 3 years so you will want to upgrade again like a graphics card).
 
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RCHeliguy

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Exactly!

Does a DD wheel have the potential to improve your lap times? From the accounts of most people your pedals seem to have the most potential to help there, but a DD wheel would be the next item to check assuming you have a rigid frame that lets you feel the FFB.

But for immersion assuming you have reasonable controls, I would say VR first, motion 2nd, tactile 3rd.

Immersion was quite good with my Fanatec Pedals and hand brake, but I feel like I have better control of my braking with my Heusinkveld Sprints, and my performance did improved because of the brake pedals. I don't think my immersion improved any, but my brake feel is definitely better.
 

RasmusP

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I only went from a g27 to a csw 2.5 but I also had a ts-pc for a week and drove t300 and dfgt from friends and a csw 2.0 when I bought a used rim.
I think what you need to find out for yourself is whether you want an additional layer of feedback (motion) and are happy with your wheel or whether there's something lacking for you with the wheel.

For me the csw 2.5 is the most similar to a DD wheel. The 2.0 comes close to the 2.5 but it just has too much static resistance (afaik DRI always at -5). Same for the csl elite (tried at a store) and ts-pc.
They are lacking the punchiness and the reduced basic resistance.

The problem though is: I know quite a few people who went from t500 to an osw and needed a lot of time to like the details and punch enough to be okay with the totally squishy feel when driving straight.

There's sadly, engineering wise, no way to simulate two tyres with caster angle wanting to keep the wheel straight with an electric motor.
An electric motor can only pull left and right. To program it to "work against any resistance from driver's hands" while still moving from the details of the ffb is extremely difficult and I'd almost say impossible since no developer did that yet.

So in the end a t500 feels "better" in some way. It has a high basic resistance, feels nice and beefy when driving straight but once the ffb kicks in, it can spin quite swiftly.

This leads me to the drift setting of the csw 2.5 although I'd rather call it "beefiness".
- 5 (max basic resistance) feels the best when going straight
- 1 (almost no resistance) feels the best mid corner.

0 is too light... And the positive values are garbage anyway.

So even with a csw 2.5 I still get to decide between squishiness and beefiness.

A friend of mine got the new simucube pro and he is still not happy after a month, upgrading from a t500.

Now the question is: would you like the details and punch enough to live with the squishiness or would you be okay with losing details and drive with higher electronical resistance set in the DD base?
I can only say that I really liked the feeling of the ts-pc.
But I always ran it at 100% and would've liked 150% of that...
With the csw 2.5 I often only run 70-90% base strength.

Your wheel is somewhere in between. Probably has good punch and torque, a kinda high base resistance but lacks a bit overall.


You need to think about this. Do you want more torque, more details but could live with a kinda "empty feeling" when driving straight?
Is that really worth it?

I honestly think adding motion would be the better decision. With my csw 2.5 I wouldn't think about a DD wheel and definitely get motion!

Only get the DD if you feel "not satisfied" anymore with what you get from your wheel like I did with my g27. It felt like an unresponsive, clonky, too weak mushy crap when driving around the track instead of driving a real car.
Case was clear!

Conclusion:
If you are happy with your wheel: get motion.
If you aren't very happy with your wheel: get a DD or a used csw 2.5 maybe.

Quite a long post for the content I actually brought into this thread but I thought a long time about ffb, motors etc.
I'm interested in how it works and what the wheels do lack and how to possibly improve them.
Maybe it gave you some input you didn't get yet :)
 
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RCHeliguy

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@RasmusP Thanks for those words.

I think there are many people who just assume a DD wheel all upside, but there is a learning curve and work to make them work well at least right now. The software is improving and at some point I expect that there will be easy presets for various games with a few sliders that are all the vast majority of people need.

There are some games where people spent large amounts of time to try to get a DD wheel to feel right. If you read the DD threads, you can see people saying point blank, don't try this game until you understand things better because it is optimized for belted wheels and feels awful initially. Try this other game first because it has an easier learning curve and seems to match how a DD wheel works.

The CSW 2.5 is pretty much plug an play. There are a few settings, but it's nothing near what the DD wheels have to fiddle with.

I will add importantly that I'm not at all saying a DD wheel is not capable of delivering more. I'm just saying that it is still a relatively small percentage of the audience, not all games support it well, and the software is just now starting to become more "main stream" so I expect that the software support and configuration will be improving quite a bit over the next year or so.

I'm also not saying that there are not a number of games that work well with DD wheels. DD owners tend to lean towards the titles that work well and shun the rest.
 
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Jeremy Ford

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This is weird, a thread talking down direct drive wheels versus belt drive motors. I must have traveled into a parallel universe.
 
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