DD wheel or Motion

Cote Dazur

SIM Addict
If you have both, I would like to know what you think I should do first.
I drive exclusively in VR, I have a CSR Elite, the father of the 2.5, I use SimShaker wheel with a butt kicker. My goal in any SIM is immersion, the feeling of being there is all I am after.
Should I upgrade my wheel for a DD first or should I get a motion system?
 
I would suggest that if you build something that flimsy that it would be flexing all over the place, be noisy and lose the impact that a motion system can bring. I think it would be more distracting than anything else.

The problem being that you want a solid structure for solid braking and FFB and even shifting. If the motion system tries to give you a transient spike that turns into a shutter, the effect is lost. You will basically just be shaking in a very unnatural way that will throw you off rather than add to the experience.
 
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From browsing the thread, it seems to a little more elaborate than putting pieces together, which I am comfortable with, from successfully assembling IKEA furniture, LOL, but, on a more serious note, even changing a complete engine on my ZX6 track bike or even building my gaming PC
The machining parts, 3D printing and electronic connections are intimidating.
Congrats on your rig, it looks sharp.
Seriously it’s not much more difficult than assembling furniture.
I thought it looked daunting too and way out of my expertise but decided to give it a go.
Look at each step individually and it’s not as intimidating as looking at it as a whole.

The parts I was mainly dreading were the 3D printing as I had never even seen a 3D printer let alone know how to work one.
The other part was the electrics as it looked like a mine field.

I bought the cheapest 3D printer I could find (Creality Ender 2 for £90) and after learning how to work it via YouTube the prints were easy.
One of the members created a connection box for the electrics (called an SFX100 shield) which makes it literally plug and play, so the electronics were a none issue.

There is no machining to be done at all.

In fact the hardest part was the part I didn’t think I would have any issues with at all and that was screwing the helicoils in. This was made easier by using cutting fluid and a hex key that actually fit.

A unit like this would probably cost about £5,000 to buy where I made this for around £1,400. You could possibly make it cheaper by shopping around too.
You need a good sturdy rig to screw it onto though.

I know it’s not for everyone (possibly not for you either) but it’s a great project and far easier than I thought it would be.
 
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For the SFX-100 also make sure that you either have a 220V circuit or enough current from a 110V circuit to run a step up transformer generating 220V. In my case I would have to run a second dedicated 110V or 220V line to support this. Unfortunately my breaker box is completely full and my basement ceiling is completely finished with crown moldings and ceiling fans. Adding an extra circuit would be costly.
 
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VR first, DD second (provided you're not using a G27, otherwise DD equal first) then motion. Motion is last for me. I take 10 minutes to adjust to not running motion. As long as my tactile is on I'm fine. To add motion is not just plug and play. I'm with Jeremy here in the regular, non parallel universe....

Motion adds A LOT of headaches. The only downside to DD is that some games don't support it. I have pretty much everything so am informed enough to form an opinion. You don't need DD but it's a lot simpler and cheaper than adding motion.
 
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VR first, DD second (provided you're not using a G27, otherwise DD equal first) then motion. Motion is last for me. I take 10 minutes to adjust to not running motion. As long as my tactile is on I'm fine

Ok then! So VR first, Tactile second, DD Third and Motion last. How does that sound?

The only downside to DD is that some games don't support it

I am not sure to follow, DD is a better FFB wheel, how can some game support FFB wheel but not DD?
 
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Because developers refuse to accept that it's 2019 and all titles should support direct input devices, no matter if they are Logitech, TM, Fanatec or something not specifically 'off the shelf'. If you can plug a USB into it, it should be supported by the game. It doesn't need to have special programming or effects. WRC 7 should be able to recognise Axis left and right no matter if it's a G25 or an OSW.

It doesn't.
 
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VR first, DD second (provided you're not using a G27, otherwise DD equal first) then motion. Motion is last for me. I take 10 minutes to adjust to not running motion. As long as my tactile is on I'm fine. To add motion is not just plug and play. I'm with Jeremy here in the regular, non parallel universe....

Motion adds A LOT of headaches. The only downside to DD is that some games don't support it. I have pretty much everything so am informed enough to form an opinion. You don't need DD but it's a lot simpler and cheaper than adding motion.

Motion adds a LOT of headaches? I haven't seen that at all with the NLRv3. It supports all the software I use, is easy to configure and has worked great with VR.

Are your headaches SFX-100 related?
 
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My V3 wasn't a headache but that doesn't mean it might not be for someone else. Mounting is always an issue depending on your current rig etc. It's much easier to add DD wheel than something as involved as motion. Also, the V3 is a best case scenario. That piece of kit is amazing. But even that can be challenging to mount for some. The SFX can be a pain in the ass and many who have built one will attest to it. It's not that it's not worth it (although some I know will argue that) it's that it is very challenging to get it all right. I still have issues with the effects in certain games giving literally headaches. The V3 rarely did this.
 
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Right now I would see a DD wheel as being more effort to get working right than an NLRv3, even if I did have to drill holes in some angle aluminum to mount it, but that's just one man's opinion.
 
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Right now I would see a DD wheel as being more effort to get working right than an NLRv3, even if I did have to drill holes in some angle aluminum to mount it, but that's just one man's opinion.
If you mean "tuning" effort, DD-wheels are generally very easy to tune - especially once the user becomes well acquainted with how they feel compared to other wheels. Even the AccuForce with SimCommander (with it's advanced features) can be easy to tune, it's just about knowing what effects to focus on. The biggest hurdle I experienced when first using DD was understanding soft-clipping. Once I solved that, things became much clearer.

Tuning the D-box motion system is also very easy; some titles need almost zero adjustment and just work with default settings. Others may require specific custom profiles for some cars / car-classes / tracks. I usually find it necessary to reduce certain effects to strike the balance I prefer but, it's mostly a one-time (or so) process for each title. Titles such as AMS / Pc2 may require more profiles due to the broad range of vehicle classes in play. Fortunately, the D-box is also quite effective at tactile effects too.

Of all of the forms of feedback systems, I think tactile is among the most challenging to get right imo. Effective tactile setups require multiple and various types of transduces while utilizing very effective mounting solutions consisting of optimal leverage and isolation solutions. Determining what those are requires a lot of research, experimentation and luck, not to mention a substantial investment. It can become a hobby in and of itself and for those that enjoy that, it can be very rewarding too. :)
 
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Depending on who you talk to every single thing that is involved with sim racing is "easy".

My experience on this matter is that there are learning curves to most things that people tend to forget once they are past them. I'm no different. Then everything "was" past tense easy, even if it didn't seem so at the time.

I know the D-Box and NLRv3 are both very well sorted in terms of software configuration and support of various titles.

With regard to DD wheels I've read many contradictory reports detailing all the trials and tribulations of people trying to get their DD wheel to feel right for given titles. Once they are past that, "it was easy".

I've heard similar things about the SFX-100. I've read tales of people fighting with things with some gnashing of teeth and then suddenly, "It's just so easy." This basically means that it works now and if I knew then what I know now it would be a cake walk.

Now in a DD vs NLRv3 contest, I think you can configure the NLRv3 with a few sliders per game and be done. It supports pretty much everything. A DD doesn't support everything and the comments about having to adjust configurations on a car by car basis, seems like a lot of configuration to me, plus the learning curves and things you need to understand about how each system works.
 
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Depending on who you talk to every single thing that is involved with sim racing is "easy".

My experience on this matter is that there are learning curves to most things that people tend to forget once they are past them. I'm no different. Then everything "was" past tense easy, even if it didn't seem so at the time.

I know the D-Box and NLRv3 are both very well sorted in terms of software configuration and support of various titles.

With regard to DD wheels I've read many contradictory reports detailing all the trials and tribulations of people trying to get their DD wheel to feel right for given titles. Once they are past that, "it was easy".

I've heard similar things about the SFX-100. I've read tales of people fighting with things with some gnashing of teeth and then suddenly, "It's just so easy." This basically means that it works now and if I knew then what I know now it would be a cake walk.

Now in a DD vs NLRv3 contest, I think you can configure the NLRv3 with a few sliders per game and be done. It supports pretty much everything. A DD doesn't support everything and the comments about having to adjust configurations on a car by car basis, seem like a lot of configuration to me, plus the learning curves and things you need to understand about how each system works.
All valid points - of course, and we have to keep in mind that we all have differing ideas about what constitutes good results.

Regarding FFB per car; very rarely have I felt the need to have custom profiles based on a per-car basis. I think that is more common among iRacers or those more intensely focused purely on competitive online racing where they need to squeeze every possible millisecond out of every lap. Having a very consistent sense of optimal-grip / grip-loss can be a very useful tool. Some even say it can feel like "cheating" because of the way it can improve consistency.

For immersive purposes, I think having general-use profiles and allowing each car to have it's unique character come through the FFB works great. In fact, I could use the exact same wheel-side profile for multiple titles with good results were it not for differences in how some games handle auto-rotation / auto steering-lock. Most of my SimuCube profile settings are the same (or very close) for most titles. The primary exception being filtering levels but, once set, they tend to work well across all of the game content.

Of course, it's easier for me to know these things to be true (for me) due to having years of experience using various wheels / dd-wheels. I now have an established sense of how I define good ffb and how to get those results. When I was still using a G27, I hadn't a clue about what was possible, what was / wasn't working right. When I moved to the CSW, things became less muddy; when I moved to DD, the FFB became more clear as did my understanding and preferences in ffb. Over time, I have come to better understand the limitations of both game-ffb and hardware-ffb systems.

Of course, I could be something of an expert (in my own mind:D) in terms of my own ffb preferences while still being completely useless in helping others to achieve ffb that suites their own preferences. That's the nature of (personal) feedback systems and the more options we have for tuning, the more complex and challenging the process can be but, I'm glad to have the experience (in total) because ffb is so much less of a mystery than it used to be and it's all a part of the larger Sim Experience that I enjoy so much.:)
 
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Yeh, I don’t really understand why people adjust the FFB in all cars to feel the same. I just leave it all the same and like to feel the different FFB in each car like the handling is different, I just assume it’s part of the characteristics
 
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