D -Box 4250i G3 VS Next Level Traction Plus and V3

[NetLawMan]

So after much deliberation and research, I think I’m ready to upgrade from an NLR v3 to a full D-box.

I love the NLR v3, but have been itching to switch to a full chassis mover for awhile. Having haptic support is a bonus as I would love to downsize the complex 8-shaker setup I currently have as well if the effects from D-box can match or just deliver enjoyable haptics, which impressions seem positive on. Possible I’d keep the BK’s for additive effects.

Has anyone by chance purchased from advanced sim racing? Seems to be a trusted seller. I would order from Simlab but they are out of stock and the free shipping incentive from Advancedsimracing is a huge bonus for North America. I just don’t know if their included brackets would fit my p1-x sized rig as they are designed for their own ASR chassis(which seem to be slightly less wide?). Could order Simlab brackets I guess if needed.

Anyway buy once, cry once and all that…. I’m here for silly grins over lap times also. Seems this is the way.

I bought my rig and dbox system from them and I am very happy. Their rig is USA aluminum. You can look up my many detailed posts here

 

[No Depth]

I bought my rig and dbox system from them and I am very happy. Their rig is USA aluminum. You can look up my many detailed posts here

That’s great! Any chance you have pics of the brackets for the ASR it comes with or could do a quick measurement of the motion box plate(the master/slave boxes bolt on)? They aren’t on the website or shown anywhere in my research lol. Just need to know if I also need to contact SimLab for p1-x brackets if the ASR ones are too narrow for my chassis.

 

[ColinMac]

Once I got my D-Box kit set up I actually removed the haptic shaker and amp I had from under the seat, and sold them.

I bought mine 2nd hand and there was no plate so I have just mounted my control boxes using a length of 8040 slung across my p1x base.

You’re in for a treat though ! Haptics are pretty tuneable, and in the frequency sweep they use as a demo, it was at the point of shaking my rig almost to bits ! Way more powerful than the shaker.

Im sure you've spent a lot of time tuning a 6 shaker setup - so the new setup will be much simpler (one Dbox app for motion / shake) and definitely definitely less cabling !

Let us see how you get on !

 

[RCHeliguy]

Just to avoid some of the assumptions being thrown around. You can get better tactile with transducers if you take it as far as Race Bass. With proper isolation that provides transducers can create feed back as high as abusive. I have mine turned way down from what they can deliver. So there is no point saying that the D-Box is more powerful, when a transducer based solution can create much more impact than you would ever want. Once you are past overkill, everything past that point is of no value.

That's not to say D-Box haptic is bad, but to suggest everyone just rip the transducers from their rig seems off as well.

I'm looking at multi-layered effects where you can tune the engine feel with different settings for different cylinder engines with proper resonances for each and sliders to adjust where the redline and rev limiter cut in. I'm not saying that everyone wants to create settings for every car, but you can. The D-Box haptics are still very primitive compared to this. That is just scratching the surface.

No doubt the D-Box system is a simpler setup and it take effort to integrate both a full chassis motion system and tactile system. There is no arguing that. But there is more realism to be had with a full tactile system on top of that motion system.

I'm not arguing against some of the comments being made, but I think the idea of keeping a tactile system on top of the D-Box system has merit.

 

[NetLawMan]

Just to avoid some of the assumptions being thrown around. You can get better tactile with transducers if you take it as far as Race Bass. With proper isolation that provides transducers can create feed back as high as abusive. I have mine turned way down from what they can deliver. So there is no point saying that the D-Box is more powerful, when a transducer based solution can create much more impact than you would ever want. Once you are past overkill, everything past that point is of no value.

That's not to say D-Box haptic is bad, but to suggest everyone just rip the transducers from their rig seems off as well.

I'm looking at multi-layered effects where you can tune the engine feel with different settings for different cylinder engines with proper resonances for each and sliders to adjust where the redline and rev limiter cut in. I'm not saying that everyone wants to create settings for every car, but you can. The D-Box haptics are still very primitive compared to this. That is just scratching the surface.

No doubt the D-Box system is a simpler setup and it take effort to integrate both a full chassis motion system and tactile system. There is no arguing that. But there is more realism to be had with a full tactile system on top of that motion system.

I'm not arguing against some of the comments being made, but I think the idea of keeping a tactile system on top of the D-Box system has merit.

I have to respectfully disagree with you here. While there is staunch support for haptic transducer DIY around here, It is not the be-all-end-all. Two things to consider:
(1) Regardless of whether you can build a complex haptic transducer system to be technically better or more accurate, there is a law of diminishing returns.
(2) it’s not a question of better to begin with, people with haptic only systems are using vibration as a substitute for every possible que/ sensation from a real car. People with a dbox system don’t need haptic transducers for many of those same questions as they have actual motion. Plus they have built-in vibration for the rest.

There is a reason why so many people with dbox or other systems don’t bother with complex transducers, it is simply not worth the trouble in most cases.

Note that if you don’t have a dbox type system, my comments above don’t apply, and do go for it!

I myself removed all transders except for one on the seat that is tied to the game sound track only.

 

[NetLawMan]

That’s great! Any chance you have pics of the brackets for the ASR it comes with or could do a quick measurement of the motion box plate(the master/slave boxes bolt on)? They aren’t on the website or shown anywhere in my research lol. Just need to know if I also need to contact SimLab for p1-x brackets if the ASR ones are too narrow for my chassis.

Can’t take a pic but the plate is thin metal and each one generally covers the space underneath the pedal deck, and the seat. I have one the box controller under the seat, and one under the pedal deck. It comes with the necessary screws.

At the time I bought mine, the drill holes were not aligned for the GEN three system. Therefore I had to drill my own holes. I suspect that has changed, and so you should call and ask them.

With respect to the brackets. They are very simple squares that wrap around the actuators. They will connect to any 8020 rig. They do not extend out.

The guys at advance to sim racing have been terrific, including allowing me to order a few custom sized 8020 parts. I suspect that that if you reach out to them, they can send you all the pics you need as well as answer all of your questions.

I also bought my ignition controls button box from them.

 

[ColinMac]

@ Mark

I didn't suggest it was the route for everyone, just worked for me. The shaker I had was lost in the D-Box vibrations and therefore no longer made sense. So I sold it.

D-Box tactile though (and lets not forget this is their actual business, ie cinemas etc) is, I think, much finer in terms of detail than you believe.

You can easily adjust engine types and vibration cues far more discretely, and on a per-sim per-car basis should you desire. I can clearly feel rumble strips going under my 'front' then 'rears' and at the same time detect RPM and shifts through the motion and rumbles. It's definition like I've never had. Is it similar to yours? Likely not, but I also like the reduction in cabling and power and heat etc.

This stuff of course is horses for courses, and not for everyone, but I can say its FAR superior to my single shaker I had previously although I'll admit this was a budget setup with a teeny amp (my buttkicker amp had previously GONE ON FIRE! lol)

Your system sounds a different league in terms of haptics, but it's far from the mainstream sim crowd, even those who dabble in tactile immersion.

This is an amazing hobby and theres room for all designs and types of kit.

I've very much enjoyed some of the pic threads etc of your gear, and I'd love to experience all those tactile cues.

Likewise, my mate when visiting was utterly staggered at leaning over a caterham's side in VR, watching the suspension arms compressing and moving slowly when creeping over rumble strips, and feeling it in the rig (and the wheel) at the same time.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Note that if you don’t have a dbox type system, my comments above don’t apply, and do go for it!

The person I know who has a D-Box with Haptic has disabled it and has set up a Race Bass system and likes Race Bass tactile better.

Not everyone wants their entire chassis vibrating with every tactile effect. There are downsides to this. Full chassis tactile can be much louder and rattle everything.

When you have the seat and foot plate isolated, you can do more to them independently.

Compared to someone dabbling in tactile, I'm sure it is fine, but it is definitely not the end all be all in this arena.

 

[ColinMac]

I'm sure the RaceBass setup can be amazing. Not sure why you'd want to isolate a pedal tray tho and deliver separate vibration FX, since a racecar pedal box is firmly attached to the car, even if it's adjustable. Also it sounds WAY expensive

I also however think motion in rigs can be incredible, and this D-Box kit blew my socks off, even after having a PT-Actuator setup (think less vibrations, more travel) for 18 months. And it was the melding of vibration effects and motion that makes the D-Box so much (for me at least) way better.

Anyway, fella, we're way OT for this thread.

Enjoy your rig regardless.

TLDR if you have a transducer setup, don't remove them until you've tried the motion gear.

 

[5teveC457]

Would the Dbox system vibrations only work well if your rig was on a hard surface? What if you were on carpet? My system is on carpet, but the buttkicker obviously works fine since it is attached to the seat.

 

[ColinMac]

My system is on carpeted boards I made to spread the weight on my floorjoists.

It works perfectly, I don't think there's any dampening going on. It can vibrate my wireless keyboard right off the keyboard tray, at low Hz. The demo frequency sweep is terrifying lol, much like a DOLBY intro but one you can feel

 

[NetLawMan]

The person I know who has a D-Box with Haptic has disabled it and has set up a Race Bass system and likes Race Bass tactile better.

Not everyone wants their entire chassis vibrating with every tactile effect. There are downsides to this. Full chassis tactile can be much louder and rattle everything.

When you have the seat and foot plate isolated, you can do more to them independently.

Compared to someone dabbling in tactile, I'm sure it is fine, but it is definitely not the end all be all in this arena.

I guess my point is when I drive my car rarely are the vibrations I feel perfectly isolated to one spot. I might feel it more in the wheel than the pedal or more in the pedal than the wheel. You simply feel it more in some places than others.

The reality is that with the exception of engine vibration, abs, etc. - it’s all coming as a result of the car’s contact with the road. Thus suspension based motion systems are legit.

It’s great that you know a guy who likes tactile better, but you have a bunch of people here who actually own these motion systems (dbox/sigma/etc), who are speaking from the perspective of heavy user experience.

Regarding your friends complaint about the chassis vibrating, there is a simple solution - turn down engine vibration and road texture

Sheesh. I have said it before: is it possible to have one thread on Racedepartment, where we can talk about motion systems, without tactile disciples raining on the parade

 

[RCHeliguy]

I'm sure the RaceBass setup can be amazing. Not sure why you'd want to isolate a pedal tray tho and deliver separate vibration FX, since a racecar pedal box is firmly attached to the car, even if it's adjustable.

The point is to isolate where you want to feel things.
That is the seat and your feet.
You also want to isolate where you feel things from the rest of your rig so you can effectively feel a larger frequency range without the rig damping it out.

Isolating the vibrations from the rest of your rig also isolates the vibrations from your floor so the people underneath you and your neighbors are not complaining.

This is all significantly less expensive than a D-Box system. So if you think this is WAY Expensive than a D-Box is WAY WAY Expensive.

 

[NetLawMan]

Would the Dbox system vibrations only work well if your rig was on a hard surface? What if you were on carpet? My system is on carpet, but the buttkicker obviously works fine since it is attached to the seat.

I think the main thing is whether the carpet is slippery causing the whole rig to move. In terms of impact to vibrations, I doubt it is a huge issue. The rig is typically going to be about 200lbs plus the weight of the driver. That should compress thinner carpets. If it is a huge shaggy pile, I don’t know

 

[RCHeliguy]

Sheesh. I have said it before: is it possible to have one thread on Racedepartment, where we can talk about motion systems, without tactile disciples raining on the parade

I have nothing but respect for the D-Box system when it comes to motion.

When I hear suggestions to ditch your tactile systems, that's when I have concerns that people are being given bad advice.

 

[NetLawMan]

The point is to isolate where you want to feel things.
That is the seat and your feet.
You also want to isolate where you feel things from the rest of your rig so you can effectively feel a larger frequency range without the rig damping it out.

Isolating the vibrations from the rest of your rig also isolates the vibrations from your floor so the people underneath you and your neighbors are not complaining.

This is all significantly less expensive than a D-Box system. So if you think this is WAY Expensive than a D-Box is WAY WAY Expensive.

And you have to go through all of that trouble to compensate for the lack of motion. Because you need to rely on vibration for things that you don’t with a motion system. Because if you didn’t isolate, multiple simultaneous cues using vibration would blend together and be indistinguishable .

If you can’t have motion that’s the way to go. If you have motion, there is no point. You can use you other senses (like inner-ear and balance) and enjoy an even more wholesome experience. Note I am not saying you have a great experience with tactile.

 

[RCHeliguy]

If you can’t have motion that’s the way to go. If you have motion, there is no point. You can use you other senses (like inner-ear and balance) and enjoy an even more wholesome experience. Note I am not saying you have a great experience with tactile.

Wrong!!!!! And this is why we I haven't left the thread.

My point is that if you want the best experience you need both a dedicated motion system and a dedicated tactile.

The D-Box has excellent motion and "decent" tactile effects that come with the compromise of shaking the floor and rattling your entire rig which you will need to bolt down solidly.

You continue to imply that the D-Box Haptic system somehow supersedes a proper tactile system and it does not. I'm not saying it's bad, but just that it is not the best available.

A properly isolated tactile system transmits far less noise into the floor and gives you a better tactile sensation.

The selling points of the D-Box Haptic system are definitely simplicity of setup, compared to setting up both and fitting them both to your rig. I completely agree with that.

 

[RCHeliguy]

Feel free to make a pile of posts and bury everything I've just said. I'll turn off the following flag on this thread and stop posting here.

 

[NetLawMan]

Wrong!!!!! And this is why we I haven't left the thread.

My point is that if you want the best experience you need both a dedicated motion system and a dedicated tactile.

The D-Box has excellent motion and "decent" tactile effects that come with the compromise of shaking the floor and rattling your entire rig which you will need to bolt down solidly.

You continue to imply that the D-Box Haptic system somehow supersedes a proper tactile system and it does not. I'm not saying it's bad, but just that it is not the best available.

A properly isolated tactile system transmits far less noise into the floor and gives you a better tactile sensation.

The selling points of the D-Box Haptic system are definitely simplicity of setup, compared to setting up both and fitting them both to your rig. I completely agree with that.

It’s your opinion. And if I recall, your rig is so filled with custom designed elements, that it would be very difficult for someone else to replicate what you have. I truly am impressed in terms of what you were able to do, whether it’s with metal, wood, or any other material. The rig you built is amazing. The reality though, is 99.9% of people aren’t going to build anything close to what you built.

But you just don’t seem to be able to drop the fact that while you personally might be able to take tactile to the next level, a large number of people don’t need it to go to the next level. It’s a moot point.

So I think the issue is with you not acknowledging or respecting other people’s opinions. Your opinion is that separate tactile is a must, whether you have motion or not. There are plenty of people here that think otherwise.

In order to bring this derailing discussion (within what is otherwise a terrific thread) to an end, I will emphasize that I had both installed at the same time, and once I got a truly good motion system with built-in haptics, I felt there was absolutely no need to go further with a separate haptic system.

For those who are considering motion in the future, you are free to go either way and make your own determination , and don’t be pressured by the insistence of greener pastures

Let’s talk about motion systems now !!

 

[ColinMac]