After 1.3 sometimes missing down-shift ?

[Tobbe Bergman]

I've noticed since 1.3 that I often miss 3rd gear when trying to shift down from 4th with sequential ( Paddles or stick ) ?
The gear stays in 4th and I have to shift again to get down to 3rd.

No problems with this in Dirt Rally

Anyone else having this problem ?

 

[Ho3n3r]

For now if you want to use the transmission instead of the brakes to slow down a car, drive something with an H-pattern.

Engine braking is a big part of slowing down an open wheeler as well. Of course not at the cost of an engine, so DSP makes sense.

Even Grand Prix 4 had DSP. Now that I think about it, it's very odd that neither rFactors have had it.

 

[William Levesque]

No, i'm not doing it wrong, you're the one who's don't even know what i'm talking about...

I meant helping reduce speed with gearbox in some emergency situation instead of a missing downshift (due to protection) and crash

That doesn't make any more sense.

And engine braking is downshifting without blipping (so H-Pattern cars mostly), used back when cars had drum brakes. It is not over-revving like a baboon. And the only way you might miss a corner not being able to downshift is if you go to neutral and don't have the drivetrain friction helping the car slow down (or/and turn in for RWD cars).

 

[Ho3n3r]

That doesn't make any more sense.

And engine braking is downshifting without blipping (so H-Pattern cars mostly), used back when cars had drum brakes. It is not over-revving like a baboon. And the only way you might miss a corner not being able to downshift is if you go to neutral and don't have the drivetrain friction helping the car slow down (or/and turn in for RWD cars).

Very eloquently put, my friend...

 

[Rui Santos]

That doesn't make any more sense.

And engine braking is downshifting without blipping (so H-Pattern cars mostly), used back when cars had drum brakes. It is not over-revving like a baboon. And the only way you might miss a corner not being able to downshift is if you go to neutral and don't have the drivetrain friction helping the car slow down (or/and turn in for RWD cars).

So are you telling me that drivers don't use gearbox to help car reduce speed, lol, very good driver you should be... also, if you try to downshift while braking and gear don't engage due to DSP your brake distance will be longer and might result in a crash right?

Talk to people then, who are telling that they're crashing due to missing downshifts...

 

[William Levesque]

So are you telling me that drivers don't use gearbox to help car reduce speed, lol, very good driver you should be... also, if you try to downshift while braking and gear don't engage due to DSP your brake distance will be longer and might result in a crash right?

Talk to people then, who are telling that they're crashing due to missing downshifts...

As long as you're in gear, downshifting doesn't matter for braking distance.

Maybe you guys have a problem

 

[PhilS13]

As long as you're in gear, downshifting doesn't matter for braking distance.

Maybe you guys have a problem

The force needed to turn an engine at high rpm is much greater than at low rpm. In which gear you are does matter.
Engine braking is there even if you blip. You need a force to turn an engine without any fuel going in. The drivetrain friction is only a small part of that force, most of it is coming from the intake vacuum.

 

[ouvert]

As long as you're in gear, downshifting doesn't matter for braking distance.

Maybe you guys have a problem

sure it does .. just get in your car and do the test .. I assume everybody is using it every day ...

 

[William Levesque]

Semantics, semantics everywhere !

Engine braking, basically you downshift and just dump the clutch (relatively), forcing the engine to catch up to the transmission. Which basically acts like a brake the time it gets to the correct revs. Hence the name. Brakes are strong enough now (and don't really fade much anymore) so that it's not used in modern racing. And drivetrain friction matters. I don't care if in theory it itself creates less force, if there's nothing connecting that friction to the driven wheels all you have then is tyre/wind/gravity. Hence why you have to be in gear to benefit from the effects.

And we're talking track driving. Sure, if you're at 7k there's a bit more friction slowing the car down than at 2-3k, but it's very slight and when you downshift on track you don't exactly go that low anyway. You don't have to redline it every downshifts, just go a gear at a time, no need to rush really (in H-Pattern cars you can even skip gears...). I don't get why people are so aggressive with their gearbox, it's so pointless.

sure it does .. just get in your car and do the test .. I assume everybody is using it every day ...

I don't dump the clutch, I heel and toe mostly because it's fun, and to always be in gear as opposed to staying in neutral, which actually is better for fuel and helps slowing down a bit. But you also don't really want the revs to drop to idle territory, hence why the downshifts.

 

[PhilS13]

Call it semantics if you want, it's not. Just try it in any sim it takes 5 minutes.

Engine braking is NOT the engine catching up. Downshifting without matching the revs is not used in modern racing not because the brakes are now strong enough it is not used because it's a stupid way to drive. It eats clutches and it gives an irregular force that unsettles the car.

Downshift & blip doesn't unsettle the car and produces a good amount of extra braking force vs just coasting in high gear. Most cars will be setup with the brake bias too far forward and any extra braking force on the rear wheels is more than welcome, if not for the extra braking power, at least for making the car turn in a bit more.

If DSP could be turned OFF, I would leave it ON. It's just not worth risking the engine damage. Still there is a big difference between saying that and trying to convince people that downshifting doesn't shorten braking distance.

 

[Stereo]

Engine braking is NOT the engine catching up. Downshifting without matching the revs is not used in modern racing not because the brakes are now strong enough it is not used because it's a stupid way to drive. It eats clutches and it gives an irregular force that unsettles the car.

I really doubt it ever was, early racing transmissions were double clutch shifted (ie. you have to rev match) and early synchros would just wear out if you did stupid things like that.

Engine braking is useful if you have partial or complete brake failure, if your brakes work you should use them. AC has neither at the moment, closest it gets is the Miura, whose brakes are not strong enough to lock up the tires.

 

[ouvert]

Semantics, semantics everywhere !

Engine braking, basically you downshift and just dump the clutch (relatively), forcing the engine to catch up to the transmission. Which basically acts like a brake the time it gets to the correct revs. Hence the name. Brakes are strong enough now (and don't really fade much anymore) so that it's not used in modern racing. And drivetrain friction matters. I don't care if in theory it itself creates less force, if there's nothing connecting that friction to the driven wheels all you have then is tyre/wind/gravity. Hence why you have to be in gear to benefit from the effects.

And we're talking track driving. Sure, if you're at 7k there's a bit more friction slowing the car down than at 2-3k, but it's very slight and when you downshift on track you don't exactly go that low anyway. You don't have to redline it every downshifts, just go a gear at a time, no need to rush really (in H-Pattern cars you can even skip gears...). I don't get why people are so aggressive with their gearbox, it's so pointless.


I don't dump the clutch, I heel and toe mostly because it's fun, and to always be in gear as opposed to staying in neutral, which actually is better for fuel and helps slowing down a bit. But you also don't really want the revs to drop to idle territory, hence why the downshifts.

Sure i heel and toe too (when I'm not focusing on not doing it) but if you just slowing down to trafic lights you dont need to brake, just downshift till engine brakes you.. if i need to stop faster i brake and engine brake at the same time and braking distance is shorter.. And that was the question..
Also you are not dumping the cluch agresively.. You just dont wait for revs to go lower before downshift

 

[William Levesque]

*sigh*

Nevermind then. Let's just agree that we don't get what anyone is saying here.

 

[Rui Santos]

*sigh*

Nevermind then. Let's just agree that we don't get what anyone is saying here.

You're the one who's not getting, every average amateur driver knows that gearbox helps cars braking and some people already answered your unuseful arguments...

 

[Brandon Wright]

You're the one who's not getting, every average amateur driver knows that gearbox helps cars braking and some people already answered your unuseful arguments...

Agreed. I use engine braking in my car every day, and I blip each downshift. To say that putting the car in a lower gear doesn't slow the car down is.......well, it's wrong.

 

[William Levesque]

Again, clearly you guys don't get what I'm saying. But whatever. Don't feel like I have to deal with this ****.

 

[Stereo]

You're the one who's not getting, every average amateur driver knows that gearbox helps cars braking and some people already answered your unuseful arguments...

The gearbox is maybe 10% of the braking (the same amount as it cuts power output - if your engine produces 400 horsepower and 360 gets to the wheels, that means the gearbox + diff have 40 horsepower worth of braking), 90% is the engine compressing air but not igniting more fuel to speed it up again.

Downshift protection is not protecting the gearbox - it's protecting the engine. The gearbox itself can spin way faster, you can observe this easily because the gears are connected directly to the rear wheels - when you're in 5th gear, the 1st gears are still connected to the wheels and spinning 3-4 times faster. Shifting from 5th to 1st doesn't change the speed of the gearbox at all, it just makes the engine exceed redline by 3-4 times.

 

[ouvert]

The gearbox is maybe 10% of the braking (the same amount as it cuts power output - if your engine produces 400 horsepower and 360 gets to the wheels, that means the gearbox + diff have 40 horsepower worth of braking), 90% is the engine compressing air but not igniting more to speed it up again.

Downshift protection is not protecting the gearbox - it's protecting the engine. The gearbox itself can spin way faster, you can observe this easily because the gears are connected directly to the rear wheels - when you're in 5th gear, the 1st gears are still connected to the wheels and spinning 3-4 times faster.

exactly .. that why it is engine braking and not gearbox braking .. and that why it is not exactly working on diesels .. well technically turbo diesels have backpressure with similiar effect ..
But I think we can settle on fact that it helps braking and shorten the braking distance

also saves the fuel .. yay for the greener future

 

[P*Funk]

Brakes are strong enough now (and don't really fade much anymore) so that it's not used in modern racing.

Not according to Niels

http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/setup-hints.32429/

Referring to Stock Car Brasil

Downshifting can be pretty early, which real drivers do in these cars to help them slow down. The engine is pretty durable so there is a good chance it can survive some abuse.

If you watch onboards of those cars you can confirm that relative to many other motorsports these guys do somewhat downshift like baboons.

 

[Rui Santos]

"Downshifting can be pretty early, which real drivers do in these cars to help them slow down. The engine is pretty durable so there is a good chance it can survive some abuse."

Obvious...

 

[Radu Oros]

So Stock Cars in Brazil are the rule for GT2/3 and road cars?