After 1.3 sometimes missing down-shift ?

[Tobbe Bergman]

I've noticed since 1.3 that I often miss 3rd gear when trying to shift down from 4th with sequential ( Paddles or stick ) ?
The gear stays in 4th and I have to shift again to get down to 3rd.

No problems with this in Dirt Rally

Anyone else having this problem ?

 

[Radu Oros]

Thanks, there are inconsistencies in the logic. I can say there's no right and wrong answer in a sim-game. Like you said, depends on what part you want to lean on. On one part there are more assists and approachable ways for people to use the car in game as they wouldn't do in real life. That's down to this being a commercial game where one of the main objectives is for people to buy it and actually be able to play it, no matter their experience level and hardware used. In real life is just one hardware, the car. Sometimes they can adapt it if the driver has disabilities.
But I only predict that this subject wouldn't be so argued if the game already came with DSP on release. Though some would still complain about it since in some sims dsp doesn't exist, and that they can't downshift properly in AC. They would have to downshift the same way drivers do irl. But then again comes the subject of other aids possible in game that aren't possible in real life.
Although for example GT3 series has its own regulations, and a league in AC with GT3 would also create its own regulations about which aids you can or can't use. And in this case I don't see DSP being part of that list of regulations, since it shouldn't be considered for that because the car was built with it; at least I think so, that they didn't incorporate it after the car was finished, so it was part of the car design.

 

[P*Funk]

i doubt professional racing drivers do those stupid errors...

Well if we only ever consider F1 drivers then its not terribly likely, yes. However when you look at the fact that cars are built for every level of competition and many of these GT cars are featured in series that have amateur classes where the so called gentlemen drivers show up to do it on the weekend off their regular jobs and then when you consider how tenuous the budget on these teams is with the sponsors being the only thing keeping them in it and without being a factory team with access to more chassis and endless labour/replacement parts it suddenly makes a lot of sense why these protections are there.

Quite simply, professional is a relative term in driving. You don't look to the pinnacle of any field to determine the mean. In actual fact with this kind of tech driven field you actually look towards the bottom, at least with respect to some of the classes, and GT3 was definitely (at least by the looks of things) intended for use by so called gentlemen drivers.

Thanks, there are inconsistencies in the logic.

Yes, that's because its an arbitrary point done by Kunos. To say that TC and ABS can be changed and other things changed for comfort or ease or what have you and not the downshift protection is arbitrary. Whether one agrees with it or not it most definitely seems arbitrary. I'm not complaining really, except that the protection seems a bit too severe and rejects some downshifts that ought to be accepted. Doesn't bother me.

What I think is also most definitely inconsistent logically is most people's objection to the introduction of the downshift protection, basically saying that anything that makes them change how they drive is wrong.

 

[Stereo]

Well if we only ever consider F1 drivers then its not terribly likely, yes. However when you look at the fact that cars are built for every level of competition and many of these GT cars are featured in series that have amateur classes where the so called gentlemen drivers show up to do it on the weekend off their regular jobs and then when you consider how tenuous the budget on these teams is with the sponsors being the only thing keeping them in it and without being a factory team with access to more chassis and endless labour/replacement parts it suddenly makes a lot of sense why these protections are there.

Not to mention that they run in endurance series; which both means you need the hardware to last longer without a full overhaul, and that drivers are more likely to be fatigued and make mistakes.

 

[P*Funk]

Not to mention that they run in endurance series; which both means you need the hardware to last longer without a full overhaul, and that drivers are more likely to be fatigued and make mistakes.

Exactly. Though to be honest I prefer endurance GT classes that lack either ABS or TC or both because I feel like conserving your tires is part of the challenge for the driver so for the classes that still don't have all of these features, so I think in TUSCC or WSCC that includes GTLM and Prototype and Prototype Challenge, I think it should stay that way. I understand why in endurance racing its more sensible for the amateurs to have those however which is why GTD is going to have full GT3 spec assists in WSCC or whatever the hell the new acronym is.

I figure with tires if you screw up and flat spot them that's the price you pay for a lapse in concentration and in endurance racing, unlike with sprint races, an extra pit stop to get new tires or even one new tire out of sync with your strategy is not irrecoverable because between full course cautions and unforeseen events a lot can happen. This commentary of mine has however largely outstripped its topical relevance to AC.

 

[Rui Santos]

I knew you would bring again the argument of slipstream effect multiplier, tyre wear, fuel usage, things you can control in game but not in real life.
But there's a reason why DSP shouldn't be something considered to be controlled by the player. Because that is something which belongs to the car, more than abs, tc, stability. Even though some cars are really built to be used with abs.
So driving for example a GT3 car in game, you are simulating the car behavior from real life. Without DSP, you are no longer simulating the same things you can do with the car. So basically without DSP you can exploit the car in ways in which the real life driver can't do when he downshifts. But of course you could also exploit in-game tyre wear, fuel, and slipstream multiplier... but then should we ask the devs to make optional for GT3 cars the rev limiter, engine cut off, electronic kicker, maybe even ask them to give us the option to make the GT3 car manual transmission, exaggeration I know.

Still don't get what makes you think that DSP is different from TC or ABS when it comes to what you can or you can't do with the driving...

 

[Chris Kennedy]

Still don't get what makes you think that DSP is different from TC or ABS when it comes to what you can or you can't do with the driving...

because in the real car you cant disable DSP on the fly, whereas TC/ABS you can? Perhaps there are some cars that are exceptions to that, but if anyone can find that data, im sure the devs would happily incorporate it.

 

[Brandon Wright]

because in the real car you cant disable DSP on the fly, whereas TC/ABS you can?

Is this correct? In street cars you can usually turn the TC off but I've never seen one where you could turn off the ABS. I know in race cars like GT3's you can adjust the level of TC but I can't find any data saying you can fully deactivate either of them (most of the search results bring back links to sim racing forums so it's hard to say for sure).

 

[Chris Kennedy]

Is this correct? In street cars you can usually turn the TC off but I've never seen one where you could turn off the ABS. I know in race cars like GT3's you can adjust the level of TC but I can't find any data saying you can fully deactivate either of them (most of the search results bring back links to sim racing forums so it's hard to say for sure).

Fair point in street cars its certainly not going to be a push button to disable ABS, and probably TC if you think about the basic ones like alfa mito... but thats another debate (should we be able to disable ABS and TC on street cars that dont have buttons to disable them... obviously the answer is yes because otherwise even more people would complain about it being impossible to disable them in the game (forced ABS... simcade! etc,)). obviously there are lots of different classes of car where it will differ, but in the case of GT3s it will almost certainly be possible to fully disable TC/ABS given the cars are built to be used in different series' that have different regs, some of which would forbid TC/ABS, and by allowing you to disable them you get to use them in that fashion too. anyways the thread is about DSP, comparing to ABS/TC implementation (which is implemented no worse than any other sim that i know of) is just a distraction. if you can find evidence that any car that has DSP has an on the fly method of disabling it (i.e not reprogramming gearbox controller processor) then great, otherwise theres no reason to make it user configurable just for the sake of letting people cheat to get more engine braking.

amazed people are still upset about this so many months later, its realistic, unless you can find any exceptions in it being too strict, or enabled on a car which doesnt have it IRL, in which case im sure the devs would happily correct this when shown the data.

I can appreciate that its annoying for some as it takes a moment to realise what has happened, and I dont think having the option to have a sound play as in R3E to inform the user is such a bad idea. but if its happening more than once a race, youve got to ask if youre not just being a bit too enthusiastic with the paddle, surely its quicker to adapt your driving style than complain all over the internet saying "it should be user configurable because i dont like it", which is obviously going to achieve loads

 

[Rui Santos]

Nobody here said we want to cheat downshifting like crazy, because you'll get damage anyway, but sometimes it's better a slight early downshift instead of a crash

 

[Brandon Wright]

amazed people are still upset about this so many months later

I'm certainly not upset about it. The only thing that upsets me is the mental gymnastics some people (not you) use to blindly defend AC or blow sunshine up the arse of Kunos, or the ones who are looking for any excuse to complain about it or attack it. It's a game, it has good qualities and bad qualities, but it can be enjoyed for what it is. This is why I pretty much never visit the official AC forum, it's not worth clawing through all the garbage to find the few tidbits of useful info.

 

[P*Funk]

I think the actual difference is that you can abuse turning off DSP but you can't abuse turning off assists that help you. The new paradigm for assists like ABS/TC is that they're actually practical aids that help the driver as in the real car rather than being crutches that aren't realistic as in the past. So now turning ABS/TC off isn't an exploit, its in actual fact, if they or the car are modeled correctly, not helping the driver. Turning of DSP however can be an exploit, especially if you haven't got proper engine damage modeling or if you have players basically never racing cars over duration where the penalty for frying your gearbox/engine will come back to bite you during a long race.

That's my final analysis on it. I think it makes more sense than most people are willing to admit.

 

[Chris Kennedy]

I'm certainly not upset about it. The only thing that upsets me is the mental gymnastics some people (not you) use to blindly defend AC or blow sunshine up the arse of Kunos, or the ones who are looking for any excuse to complain about it or attack it. It's a game, it has good qualities and bad qualities, but it can be enjoyed for what it is. This is why I pretty much never visit the official AC forum, it's not worth clawing through all the garbage to find the few tidbits of useful info.

agree, the rabid fanboys are almost as bad as the hardcore trolls as they make it just as difficult to have a sensible discussion about things. often see them pounce on people with innocent questions just because they are similar to some negative things that have been raised in a less innocent matter by trolls etc.

i guess the root cause is the trolls by planting the venomous attitude in the first place, but the fanboys need to be able to take a step back and realise not everyone is trying to rip into their favourite game

 

[Brandon Wright]

agree, the rabid fanboys are almost as bad as the hardcore trolls as they make it just as difficult to have a sensible discussion about things. often see them pounce on people with innocent questions just because they are similar to some negative things that have been raised in a less innocent matter by trolls etc.

i guess the root cause is the trolls by planting the venomous attitude in the first place, but the fanboys need to be able to take a step back and realise not everyone is trying to rip into their favourite game

Couldn't agree more. It's not just AC though, it seems to be more and more common across all racing sims (and life in general, sadly).

 

[Radu Oros]

I'm certainly not upset about it. The only thing that upsets me is the mental gymnastics some people (not you) use to blindly defend AC or blow sunshine up the arse of Kunos, or the ones who are looking for any excuse to complain about it or attack it. It's a game, it has good qualities and bad qualities, but it can be enjoyed for what it is. This is why I pretty much never visit the official AC forum, it's not worth clawing through all the garbage to find the few tidbits of useful info.

After reading the last couple of pages, I didn't see anyone blindly defending DSP or why it got implemented in the game, or blindly defending kunos for it. And I know you targeted your comment to me, however whenever I talked about DSP (see my last two posts for reference), I only talked in respect to car engineering/design, gt3 series, and game design/choices. But in some strange way you interpreted that as fanboy-ism.

 

[Brandon Wright]

After reading the last couple of pages, I didn't see anyone blindly defending DSP or why it got implemented in the game, or blindly defending kunos for it. And I know you targeted your comment to me, however whenever I talked about DSP (see my last two posts for reference), I only talked in respect to car engineering/design, gt3 series, and game design/choices. But in some strange way you interpreted that as fanboy-ism.

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that as I'm not looking to waste time arguing about it or offend anybody. My comment that you quoted was a general statement aimed at many people/many threads, not just you or this thread specifically.

 

[Michael Hornbuckle]

Meanwhile, from Twitter:
Stefano Casillo ‏@KunosStefano 17m17 minutes ago
First night time coding session after months! I coded a new algorithm for the downshift protection with full deceleration analysis.
-----------------------------
But what do I know, apparently I am simply a blind fanboy spouting off junk that you guys don't want to hear.

Getting so sick of all sim-racing forums, don't even know why I bother trying to provide actual useful info anymore.

 

[Brandon Wright]

Meanwhile, from Twitter:
Stefano Casillo ‏@KunosStefano 17m17 minutes ago
First night time coding session after months! I coded a new algorithm for the downshift protection with full deceleration analysis.
-----------------------------
But what do I know, apparently I am simply a blind fanboy spouting off junk that you guys don't want to hear.

Getting so sick of all sim-racing forums, don't even know why I bother trying to provide actual useful info anymore.

You presented objective data with no opinion or spin attached to it, that's not what I would consider being a blind fanboy.

 

[William Levesque]

Is this correct? In street cars you can usually turn the TC off but I've never seen one where you could turn off the ABS. I know in race cars like GT3's you can adjust the level of TC but I can't find any data saying you can fully deactivate either of them (most of the search results bring back links to sim racing forums so it's hard to say for sure).

In GT3, you have several TC levels, including OFF. ABS also has several levels, including OFF.

In most street cars, you can deactivate TC (except certain lower end ones, RIP). ABS you need to pull the plug tho, and have a bypass that allows the car to start without it (especially higher end cars, some just won't start when they detect the ABS is not working).

Nobody here said we want to cheat downshifting like crazy, because you'll get damage anyway, but sometimes it's better a slight early downshift instead of a crash

To be fair, if you crash because you couldn't wait 250rpm more before downshifting you're doing it wrong, lol.

 

[Rui Santos]

To be fair, if you crash because you couldn't wait 250rpm more before downshifting you're doing it wrong, lol.

No, i'm not doing it wrong, you're the one who's don't even know what i'm talking about...

I meant helping reduce speed with gearbox in some emergency situation instead of a missing downshift (due to protection) and crash

 

[Michael Hornbuckle]

For now if you want to use the transmission instead of the brakes to slow down a car, drive something with an H-pattern.