Low Fuel Motorsport Adds Assetto Corsa

DB_1973 · Dec 8, 2023

92UrS4 said:
Not sure what else they would want.

I am pretty sure they are just asking for a little common curtesy! Being asked to use their tracks. I have raced Lilski's tracks in SRS and probably Johnr's as well, just can't remember. They probably got ask, and said... sure, maybe with some stipulations. I have been ask by different outfits about using my track and have said... sure go ahead. What I find sad is the way people disrespect the creators! They put in hundreds of hours to make something of that caliber. I seen in a forum or discord somewhere that Fat-Alfie is considering putting his tracks behind a paywall because of this attituded. Its called, "biting the hand that feeds you" and its pretty stupid in my opinion!

DanderMagel · Dec 8, 2023

Profit is one thing, but LFM is in the end available for free to everyone and any financial support is optional. If this was about licensing for some simracing center where you pay your free to drive on a sim, it's a different story.

As much as I understand some people's approach towards this, free mods were and will be treated in this manner and it's rather optimistic to think this approach will be any different any time soon. Not to mention the fact that you're talking about literally the only platform that is potentially capable of resurrecting AC's multiplayer on a level that should be available to everyone from the start. I just hope they will bring more quality content on board. I don't care if it's a Forza rip or a track from race department. And I'm sorry to say most of the people probably think the same. Simracing.gp never got high up and that's also, at least partially, thanks to the policy of what content should be used on it.

Johnr777 · Dec 8, 2023

92UrS4 said:
They are turning a profit on the systems they have spent a large amount of time on to get going/creating. They also have expenses, server hosting, web hosting an everything else that goes along with making this work. Again, they are not selling these mods for profit, nor are they selling them in any way. Love modders, thats why we are all here. There are other ways to support them as many have done including myself. LFM has also added direct links to the creator's website near the downloads. Not sure what else they would want.

Like I said right at the beginning, LFM's inability to differentiate original quality work from mods that are illegitimately made, in itself is a huge cause for concern.

It will saturate the community with mods that are poorly made, unethical, from shady hosting services... you name it. I dont agree with "a large amount of time" here, seems awfully rushed to maximize user count...

And perhaps there's a grey area in all of this... But you know what isn't grey? I have the right to protect my creation, so anything from me will become private. Or to the guy above, there wont be "an open season" on anything that I model

Reboot Daytona should suffice everyone's needs to emulate the IMSA calendar this December / January

MaxineOnGasoline · Dec 8, 2023

Johnr777 said:
Like I said right at the beginning, LFM's inability to differentiate original quality work from mods that are illegitimately made, in itself is a huge cause for concern.

It will saturate the community with mods that are poorly made, unethical, from shady hosting services... you name it. I dont agree with "a large amount of time" here, seems awfully rushed to maximize user count...

And perhaps there's a grey area in all of this... But you know what isn't grey? I have the right to protect my creation, so anything from me will become private. Or to the guy above, there wont be "an open season" on anything that I model

Reboot Daytona should suffice everyone's needs to emulate the IMSA calendar this December / January

Speaking from experience, when you start organizing online competitions in this game, it's very likely the first choices will be far from the right ones regarding quality and reliability. You end up with some horrible cars and tracks that barely work. It seems like a rather a rough start for them, and choices feel half-assed, which I hope will change in near future.

I understand the frustration when someone uses your content the way you did not intend to. It's like you said. It's a grey area, with free mods being used in plenty of places as long as they're available with a public download. I've heard about a bunch of modders that decided to quit public releases because their work was scrapped or used in places/ways they never wanted it to be.

Though I hope you'll reconsider your choice, as it will be a huge hit towards AC community. I've been organizing a league in this game for the last 4 years and 80% of everything we use has at least one problem that's not easily solvable. In the end, majority of the rips and converts end up being too broken for online use. With no moderation this can only led to more problems along the way. It's always the scratch made content that's most reilable. If they don't see it now, they will eventually and it's gonna be very overwhelming for them, losing a lot of quality LFM could bring to AC. I've seen a bunch of small leagues suffering from this, leading them to quit organizing anything.

I can already see the feedback coming from their discord with drivers complaining about track limits and this can only get worse along the way.

92UrS4 · Dec 9, 2023

Johnr777 said:
Like I said right at the beginning, LFM's inability to differentiate original quality work from mods that are illegitimately made, in itself is a huge cause for concern.

It will saturate the community with mods that are poorly made, unethical, from shady hosting services... you name it. I dont agree with "a large amount of time" here, seems awfully rushed to maximize user count...

And perhaps there's a grey area in all of this... But you know what isn't grey? I have the right to protect my creation, so anything from me will become private. Or to the guy above, there wont be "an open season" on anything that I model

Reboot Daytona should suffice everyone's needs to emulate the IMSA calendar this December / January

Large amount of time as in LFM's services are not new and have been working great for ACC. A lot goes into the backend to make this work...not just choosing what mods to use. While I do agree they could be choosing better mods, like I said before I don't think anyone there is trying to do anything malicious. This is also a learning phase for them. I don't think anyone's knows exactly what the "rules" are when it comes to AC modding. It's also a free service, they do not charge for any of this. People can support them if they want, via Patreon just as many mod creators do. Everyone is free to race in any series they offer, nothing is behind a paywall.

kamov22 · Dec 10, 2023

Johnr777 said:
No, thats just not accurate at all.

Which bit? Why do developers need to license a track? Why did RFactor 2 have to remove Silverstone?

DB_1973 · Dec 12, 2023

kamov22 said:
Why do developers need to license a track?

Because they are selling it for a profit!!

kamov22 said:
Why did RFactor 2 have to remove Silverstone?

Because they are selling it for a profit and they didn't renew the license!!

This isn't a hard concept.
The only issue that a free mod has is using the name of the track. If there is no "cease and desist letter" filed then there is no problem. The lidar data I use is free and in the public domain! This is why paid third party mods are not named with the real car names. You seem to confuse, for business, with free community mods.

DanderMagel said:
I don't care if it's a Forza rip or a track from race department.

So the real issue here is that Forza may come after LFM and sue them. Because of the use of their ripped tracks being use in a for profit business. They can crap on modder's if they wish, but companies like forza probably have lawyers on retainer and it would not be a big expense to sue LFM!

PunishUnext · Dec 13, 2023

How are people using SEQUENTIAL SHIFTERS for the Mazda MX5 Cup cars? I have seen Gamer Muscle using sequential, but mine is always H-shifter.

GeshGoesBoom · Dec 18, 2023

Its a good System and Moderated but the Punishments are quiet Drakonik.
Yes I did misbehave on Track and I accept the Punishment. but for the first Incident emidiatly a 1 Month Ban is a bit harsh. Even iRacing is more leniant on Punishments.

J1_1nior · Dec 29, 2023

I never quite get the grips witch AC, I meanly do offline and to play AC you need a lot of mod to make even make it good...
Regarding the mods topic, I think the modders have the right to complain, making a mod takes a lot works and time, and since I started to use mods back in the F1C 99-02 days, mods always have a warning about using then and the need to permission to convert or use in any other way.
And here goes my suggestion for the solution of this problem, most of us are only here in Racedepartment because of the extensive library of mods, and since the tragic death of NoGrip, RD is the main source for mods, Racedepartment should create a paid mod section that rewards the people behind the mods and protected them from using without the permission, modders that don't intend to make a profit, can put their mods by a symbolic price, like $0,50 or $1, put a generic name on the mods, and if anyone use they works without consent, they just have to send a C&D letter...
And if leagues like LFM want to use the mod and have a permission to do so, the minimum they should do is always put the name of the modders in the loading screen and place to found the mod, if they rely so much on mods they must put modders firts, put a simple message on the start of every race aknowledging and thanking the name of the modders that have provid the content for that race.
Always remember, most of us don't know how to do nothing, and if not for this people that dedicate their time, none of us will be here today, so appreciate them.

Kenny Paton · Dec 29, 2023

J1_1nior said:
RD is the main source for mods, Racedepartment should create a paid mod section that rewards the people behind the mods and protected them from using without the permission, modders that don't intend to make a profit, can put their mods by a symbolic price, like $0,50 or $1, put a generic name on the mods, and if anyone use they works without consent, they just have to send a C&D letter...

In theory that sounds fine, but in practice who is going to police this. All our staff are volunteers and have lives outwith RD. Also I'd imagine there are quite a few legal issues involved, not forgetting the international reach of the website which would in all probability add to the problems.

J1_1nior · Dec 29, 2023

I think is up to modders police that, if they feel that someone is infringe their copyright they should send a letter, RD won't have to do anything other than provide the platform and if they don't take any cut wont be liable, the biggest problem with my proposal is how to make this system with RD don't participate in the transaction, my simple suggestion is RD only provide the download and link redirecting to a platform for the pay, and after they pay the person receive a code, and put this code on the RD to allow the download...
But this is only me rambling about this, there is a lot more to this and I totally understand RD wont take any risk, but is sad to see people that made good content been disrespected for demanding a little courtesy to be asked if is okay to use their mods...
The last paragraphs of my message is way more easy to do, a simple recognition, but still hard to achieve.

Richard Wilks · Dec 29, 2023

J1_1nior said:
I think is up to modders police that, if they feel that someone is infringe their copyright they should send a letter, RD won't have to do anything other than provide the platform and if they don't take any cut wont be liable, the biggest problem with my proposal is how to make this system with RD don't participate in the transaction, my simple suggestion is RD only provide the download and link redirecting to a platform for the pay, and after they pay the person receive a code, and put this code on the RD to allow the download...
But this is only me rambling about this, there is a lot more to this and I totally understand RD wont take any risk, but is sad to see people that made good content been disrespected for demanding a little courtesy to be asked if is okay to use their mods...
The last paragraphs of my message is way more easy to do, a simple recognition, but still hard to achieve.

Modders don't own any of the copyrights. Their work is mostly illegal to begin with if its copying something from real life, and if its not, then it should be a registered or trademarked IP, which mostly dont bother because thats a lot of money and red tape.

The truth is LFM is basically just a mirror of the modding landscape today, where rips and "borrowed" content are so endemic, that even hailed new releases contain them (i won't mention names).

But you know what? That's fine by me, as long as they are not charging money from people.

Kenny Paton · Dec 29, 2023

J1_1nior said:
I think is up to modders police that, if they feel that someone is infringe their copyright they should send a letter,

We already have the report system which modders regularly use to report stolen content, that's why you see downloads vanish, whether any would take it further (due to the legal ramifications) is another matter.

Richard Wilks said:
The truth is LFM is basically just a mirror of the modding landscape today, where rips and "borrowed" content are so endemic

Both true and sad that people who spend time creating something see their work stolen, I'm glad RD at least makes an effort to try and weed out these thieves, but we rely on the members to help.

DB_1973 · Dec 30, 2023

Richard Wilks said:
Modders don't own any of the copyrights. Their work is mostly illegal to begin with if its copying something from real life, and if its not, then it should be a registered or trademarked IP, which mostly dont bother because thats a lot of money and red tape.

The truth is LFM is basically just a mirror of the modding landscape today, where rips and "borrowed" content are so endemic, that even hailed new releases contain them (i won't mention names).

But you know what? That's fine by me, as long as they are not charging money from people.

The name is the only issue of copyright. You can’t copyright public aerial LiDAR data. Hence why VRC has California raceway and I believe they call barber Alabama. These have been sold for profit for years. If they used willow springs or barber then there would be a legal avenue.

J1_1nior said:
I never quite get the grips witch AC, I meanly do offline and to play AC you need a lot of mod to make even make it good...
Regarding the mods topic, I think the modders have the right to complain, making a mod takes a lot works and time, and since I started to use mods back in the F1C 99-02 days, mods always have a warning about using then and the need to permission to convert or use in any other way.
And here goes my suggestion for the solution of this problem, most of us are only here in Racedepartment because of the extensive library of mods, and since the tragic death of NoGrip, RD is the main source for mods, Racedepartment should create a paid mod section that rewards the people behind the mods and protected them from using without the permission, modders that don't intend to make a profit, can put their mods by a symbolic price, like $0,50 or $1, put a generic name on the mods, and if anyone use they works without consent, they just have to send a C&D letter...
And if leagues like LFM want to use the mod and have a permission to do so, the minimum they should do is always put the name of the modders in the loading screen and place to found the mod, if they rely so much on mods they must put modders firts, put a simple message on the start of every race aknowledging and thanking the name of the modders that have provid the content for that race.
Always remember, most of us don't know how to do nothing, and if not for this people that dedicate their time, none of us will be here today, so appreciate them.

Once you start selling, then names and logos become a legal issues.

J1_1nior · Dec 30, 2023

DB_1973 said:
The name is the only issue of copyright. You can’t copyright public aerial LiDAR data. Hence why VRC has California raceway and I believe they call barber Alabama. These have been sold for profit for years. If they used willow springs or barber then there would be a legal avenue.

Once you start selling, then names and logos become a legal issues.

That's why a suggestion to use generic names, like you said, AMS do that with F-Usa, Kansai (suzuka), and others, Raceroom also with some cars, the advantage of a symbolic price is that make easy to claim if someone is using your mod, but this generate a bigger problem of leagues starting to charge for participation, and then we become Iracing.
I never paid for a Mod, and don't intend too, but if modders are been disrespected I fully understand if they choose to put a paywall.
As I said im my second comment, why not just give more recognition to the people that made the mods that make possible the league ? not just a link to a original source, a thanks before every race to the makers of the car e and track been using.

SIM TRAXX · Jan 20, 2024

kamov22 said:
Always intrigued when these modders get uppity about their cars or tracks being used or shared using different links or altered in anyway, whether for example the modder has got a license to use the car or track themselves from the source....

If not, frankly its open season on what you do with it. When modders put some made up legal jargon on their stuff when they themselves have no license from say for example Ferrari, it always makes me chuckle.

Modders and content creators are something else in the first place. Modders mod something that is already done, content creators create something new. Also for example we have some official content licensed with real track owners like laserscanned Autobahn Country Club or M1 Concourse Champion Speedway and more coming soon.

SIM TRAXX · Jan 20, 2024

Kenny Paton said:
We already have the report system which modders regularly use to report stolen content, that's why you see downloads vanish, whether any would take it further (due to the legal ramifications) is another matter.

Both true and sad that people who spend time creating something see their work stolen, I'm glad RD at least makes an effort to try and weed out these thieves, but we rely on the members to help.

Good, we have already reported numerous stolen content to their original creators. People stealing tracks from japanese games for example WMMT5 etc or even gta. Our tracks have been stolen also.

SIM TRAXX · Jan 20, 2024

Johnr777 said:
Like I said right at the beginning, LFM's inability to differentiate original quality work from mods that are illegitimately made, in itself is a huge cause for concern.

It will saturate the community with mods that are poorly made, unethical, from shady hosting services... you name it. I dont agree with "a large amount of time" here, seems awfully rushed to maximize user count...

And perhaps there's a grey area in all of this... But you know what isn't grey? I have the right to protect my creation, so anything from me will become private. Or to the guy above, there wont be "an open season" on anything that I model

Reboot Daytona should suffice everyone's needs to emulate the IMSA calendar this December / January

100%!!! People stealing gta maps, japanese games etc. and telling people they create big content and ask for money on Patreon! ...

SIM TRAXX · Jan 20, 2024

Luca (OverTake) said:
There would certainly be a collaboration or agreement with the people who make the mods. Any old person can purchase or download a mod for AC, like how anyone can subscribe to third party content on rF2 through the Steam workshop.

But to be used in an official capacity like this whether it be for a high profile racing event or a matchmaking service, there would need to be approval from the creators.

I saw a comment from someone asking "Why do the AC devs just focus on why it is so popular, the mods?". Simple answer, they can let it happen by making the game open source but they cannot be seen to endorse it officially.

Good! Also all not verified tracks that are illegal rips should not be used! Shady stolen content is praised on patreons...people claiming they made the tracks and other people who don't know they are stolen pay the money for them... There is just few legitimate professional content creators who spend alot of money and time to bring the most realistic tracks to simracers and our work is shadowed by tons of illegitimate content.

Low Fuel Motorsport Adds Assetto Corsa

Assetto Corsa to Low Fuel Motorsport​

Editor's Take: Luca​

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Better structured events

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Assetto Corsa to Low Fuel Motorsport

Editor's Take: Luca