Automobilista 2 V1.2.3.0 Update Released on Steam

mantasisg · Sep 2, 2021

Kyuubeey said:
I do feel it is a bit of a shame that it seemingly has issues providing alright behavior in pretty basic situations though. The only reason I even talk about it is because you don't need to look at a telemetry trace to even tell. It has gotten better though so we see if it's just down to parameters or what. ACC was also pretty bad in the very beginning and it's not like the tire model is fundamentally different from AC's.

I completely agree on the first part, that in many cases telemetry or any extraction of precise data is not necessary to begin with because it is possible just to simply feel and see many things. Of course it depend on how knowledgeable you are, and how much sharpened is your perception of the reality. Frankly, when it comes to casual simracer - not much. And even us, advanced simracers who has participated in developing stuff, still have different perceptions. If anything, IMO, backing up with data is needed to support arguments.

ACC being pretty bad in first early access is an interesting topic, at the very beginning yes. After hotfix IMO it was more disapproved not because it might have been still bad, but because it was still too different for average AC player. Using a simulator a lot shapes reality perception around it, is it right or wrong, that is inevitable. At the end of the day it is just a loop in which most power has mass of people who pays most of the money.

24heuresdejeux said:
It’s great you are still contributing love your posts!

As much as I want to like AMS2 it’s a bit too different from the other sims that it’s a bit jarring to drive it.

Being different from other simulators does not mean being wrong, being different from reality means it. I don't say that AMS2 is right or wrong by saying this. I don't have it yet.

tr1v1um · Sep 2, 2021

wolftree said:
There appears to be exactly one fanboy in this thread.

I think he has a few fair points, but I think it's a bit simple to say that AC has the best consumer tire model on the market and that all physical models are guesswork. Especialy when we are looking into the not too distant future with more and more data being available, especialy for modern tyres and old spec tyres still being produced for the historic motor sport scene. This means, with the right approach there could be ways to build big databases and make physical tyre models alot better than they allready are. Following his logic we would still be driving GPL. Fact is, that all of the models are approximations and each model has it's pros and cons obviously. But to say that the tyre sidewall is neglectable is a bit too easy. The next time I scratch the sidewalks at historic Monaco with the tyre sidewall without being catapulted into the sky and feeling where the car and tyre is, it will remind me that there is a valid reason to use physical tire models. Next to the fact that the tyre contact patch is pretty much defined by the whole tire geometry, construction, including the stiffness of the sidewalls it has quite a big impact and doesn't limit what you can do with the tire model, especialy if it is dynamic. Flexibility is the key in that respect. This is also pretty interesting for stuff like oval racing or cars exceeding track limits. AC being a hit and mis experience while riding curbs is a prime example.

Kyuubeey · Sep 2, 2021

tr1v1um said:
I think he has a few fair points, but I think it's a bit simple to say that AC has the best consumer tire model on the market and that all physical models are guesswork. Especialy when we are looking into the not too distant future with more and more data being available, especialy for modern tyres and old spec tyres still being produced for the historic motor sport scene. This means, with the right approach there could be ways to build big databases and make physical tyre models alot better than they allready are. Following his logic we would still be driving GPL. Fact is, that all of the models are approximations and each model has it's pros and cons obviously. But to say that the tyre sidewall is neglectable is a bit too easy. The next time I scratch the sidewalks at historic Monaco with the tyre sidewall without being catapulted into the sky and feeling where the car and tyre is, it will remind me that there is a valid reason to use physical tire models. Next to the fact that the tyre contact patch is pretty much defined by the whole tire geometry, construction, including the stiffness of the sidewalls it has quite a big impact and doesn't limit what you can do with the tire model, especialy if it is dynamic. Flexibility is the key in that respect. This is also pretty interesting for stuff like oval racing or cars exceeding track limits. AC being a hit and mis experience while riding curbs is a prime example.

I think you've kind of misunderstood what a physical tire model even does. You can make an empiric flexible carcass model with sidewall collision and whatnot.

I am still waiting for that mathematical definition why a sidewall model is needed to produce typical CP behavior. I don't think so, but some think so. Provide a diagram of why that is so and I will be more inclined to believe that view.

I disagree because the sidewall is generally just a middleman in the resulting CP/carcass heating and CP springing/load/slip etc. behavior. You can bake in vertical stiffness, torsional stiffness etc. of the sidewall into the CP outputs; it's not like empiric brush model sims have "only" the tread and the sidewall is missing.

24heuresdejeux · Sep 2, 2021

mantasisg said:
Being different from other simulators does not mean being wrong, being different from reality means it. I don't say that AMS2 is right or wrong by saying this. I don't have it yet.

I was careful not to say that it was wrong because I have no clue what's real. But switching between sims it feels the most different than the others. I do not think that would be a controversial statement.

I think Renato has posted quite a bit on this before. I do not think it is mischaracterizing if I said he believe this physics model is better than AMS1 and he does deserve credit for his work on AMS1.

Kyuubeey · Sep 2, 2021

24heuresdejeux said:
I was careful not to say that it was wrong because I have no clue what's real. But switching between sims it feels the most different than the others. I do not think that would be a controversial statement.

I think Renato has posted quite a bit on this before. I do not think it is mischaracterizing if I said he believe this physics model is better than AMS1 and he does deserve credit for his work on AMS1.

Well, what do you expect him to say as a businessman, the contrary?

Madness does seem to have some pretty cool other features, so it doesn't necessarily have to do with just the tire model. There are some theoretical advantages that AMS2 has over AMS1 in the mechanical modeling, like all of that engine and differential stuff. I'm gonna be honest and say that it's stuff which kind of doesn't matter IMO, but it is nice to have if it can produce a little better behavior.

mantasisg · Sep 2, 2021

@24heuresdejeux Thats fair opinion. Several years ago I was naive enough, attempted to guess future of simracing. I assumed simracing titles will become more similar to each other due the fact that they all are after one same thing - reality.

But I was wrong, because I ignored one important variable - people. Apparently everyone has slightly different perception of reality and expectations from simulation. By the looks of the market, each sim targets some specific branch of perception/expectation.

Kyuubeey · Sep 2, 2021

mantasisg said:
@24heuresdejeux Thats fair opinion. Several years ago I was naive enough, attempted to guess future of simracing. I assumed simracing titles will become more similar to each other due the fact that they all are after one same thing - reality.

But I was wrong, because I ignored one important variable - people. Apparently everyone has slightly different perception of reality and expectations from simulation. By the looks of the market, each sim targets some specific branch of perception/expectation.

That's the main reason why sims have generally gotten better more from better parameters than better modeling IMO. You can still make a car in gMotor 2.1 or 2.55 that is better than an average car in a modern sim.

EDIT: Term

Neils on Wheels · Sep 2, 2021

Richard Wilks said:
A wall of text from someone that has no idea how the tire in AMS2 works, because he doesnt work or never worked for either SMS or Reiza. So all his guess work is pulled out of his posterior, to try to sound smart, and to somehow keep hyping AC1 in every thread in this website.

I can also apply a lot of obscurantism and fancy words to say what i THINK the Seta model does, but unless i see the code, or at least the parameters, i would just be guessing, and thats what he is also doing. So all that gibberish is meaningless at the end of the day, except to make himself sound smart, and confuse people even more.

But you don't see me doing that. You don't see Niels Heuskinveld doing it. You don't see Aris from Kunos doing it. You dont see Alex from R3E doing it. You dont see anybody with any semblance of rationality and knowledge doing it, because people who are serious about anything, usually dont make grandeur assumptions and blank statements about things they dont know. They make tentative hypothesis with a lot of caveats.

That's why you dont see any of those people comparing anything unless they have hard data to show for, from both games. And if Niels even did a video comparing aero data from ACC and AMS1, you won't see him doing any tire comparison anytime soon, because he has no access to the tires, and therefore, can only talk about the general sim behaviour, and not about what the tires do or not do in terms of parameters or calculations.

This just seems like some personal issue you have towards the poster rather than fair critique of his/her post. We don't have to agree with each other & certainly don't always agree with Kyuubeey but the post was relevant to the discussion, its not something the forum mods should be getting involved with IMO.

Regarding 'but you don't see me doing that'
Actually Ian Bell would often compare the SETA to other tyre models (remember those days)he was especially critical of ACs older LUT model, admittedly in response to the criticism of the cars handling.

Personally I find the technical talk interesting & wish there was more of it, especially what IMO is the most important in relation to the handling, the tyre model. Sure there is guesswork but there is some knowledge in there as well.

Neils on Wheels · Sep 2, 2021

I can't seem to get strong enough FFB, even at 150. Its like its running at half strength.
So i think that about sums up my main issues atm, i can't settle on the FFB. The handling of the older cars feels off, although it could be down to how the ffb feels but i think there is more work to do with these cars.

Richard Wilks · Sep 2, 2021

Neils on Wheels said:
This just seems like some personal issue you have towards the poster rather than fair critique of his/her post. We don't have to agree with each other & certainly don't always agree with Kyuubeey but the post was relevant to the discussion, its not something the forum mods should be getting involved with IMO.

Regarding 'but you don't see me doing that'
Actually Ian Bell would often compare the SETA to other tyre models (remember those days)he was especially critical of ACs older LUT model, admittedly in response to the criticism of the cars handling.

Personally I find the technical talk interesting & wish there was more of it, especially what IMO is the most important in relation to the handling, the tyre model. Sure there is guesswork but there is some knowledge in there as well.

I am sorry but this is an article about the new update for AMS2.

If i want to read mental onanism about tire of game X vs tire of game Z, it should be in a thread created for that. So no, it's not relevant to the discussion at all, and i have nothing "personal" against this guy, because i don't even know him.

As for Ian Bell, there is a reason why i didnt include him in the list of people i made... but then again, you DO have access to the AC tire, so he wasnt talking about anything that he couldnt see himself.

Kyuubeey · Sep 2, 2021

Richard Wilks said:
I am sorry but this is an article about the new update for AMS2.

If i want to read mental onanism about tire of game X vs tire of game Z, it should be in a thread created for that. So no, it's not relevant to the discussion at all, and i have nothing "personal" against this guy, because i don't even know him.

As for Ian Bell, there is a reason why i didnt include him in the list of people i made... but then again, you DO have access to the AC tire, so he wasnt talking about anything that he couldnt see himself.

Most of the algorithms in the AC tire are proprietary. Even CSP's physics guy who is coding on the model doesn't know all of them directly. Even with the code that is available to view, there doesn't seem to be clear answers to everything.

The only advantage Ian Bell would have is that he could input in parameters himself as a modder. He was still completely guessing at the code and relying on the devs' documentation and his own testing to figure out the code.

MadDriver11 · Sep 2, 2021

Kyuubeey said:
If you'd like to lay out a mathematical definition for why you need a separate sidewall flex model to achieve correct FY and FZ at the contact patch, be my guest. It sounds to me like you haven't actually done any sim dev but you have your chance to educate me.

Not really planning on wasting time on you given your attitude and your arrogance TBH.
It's enough to say that tire flex modifies the way and the timing forces are transmitted across: when you see things from the chassis a global model with no detail may suffice but when you try and model correctly the contact pact and the tires local forces thing change.
You can play arrogant as much as you want but physical truth is physical truth

MadDriver11 · Sep 2, 2021

Metla said:
Well, That explains why RF2 and Raceroom are also failures.

I've never paid $14 for a single track in ACC....

Actually all DLC tracks in AMS2 are not single tracks. They usually have multiple layouts and often they have historic versions. Plus they only cost $9 not $14 but that also changes by market.
For instance ACC last released Imola for 10 euros which is just one track and no layouts. Great hype... Then AMS2 has Imola, Imola 2001, Imola 1988, Imola 1972 and they are for free.
ACC has Nurburgring but AMS2 has Nurburgring, Nordschleife, 24H layout and soon the historic Nordschleife.
So really talking about pricing without discussing honestly about the content isn't a fair discussion

Kyuubeey · Sep 2, 2021

MadDriver11 said:
Not really planning on wasting time on you given your attitude and your arrogance TBH.
It's enough to say that tire flex modifies the way and the timing forces are transmitted across: when you see things from the chassis a global model with no detail may suffice but when you try and model correctly the contact pact and the tires local forces thing change.
You can play arrogant as much as you want but physical truth is physical truth

Your point is that flex does not exist in empiric brush models? You just say vague things like "the way" and "the timing". Is there some kind of issue in the linear region of slip, in hysteresis when coming back past the peak, in the relaxation length period, when FZ changes?

sylence___ · Sep 2, 2021

a lot of different opinions here, but i like reading all these passionate posts abouts sims, keep going guys!
The "best" game (sim) is the one you enjoy. We obviously all have different expectations and its fine

PickABetterUsername01 · Sep 2, 2021

sylence___ said:
a lot of different opinions here, but i like reading all these passionate posts abouts sims, keep going guys!
The "best" game (sim) is the one you enjoy. We obviously all have different expectations and its fine

The best is the best, it's not an opinion it's a fact. For example, ACC got the best GT3's, period, doesn't matter if you prefer X or Y more.

Rfactor2 got their so called amazing tyres but that doesn't mean the best physics, if that was the case they would have the best GT3 game on the market. In the end ACC is better and Raceroom is just as good as rfactor.

Kyuubeey · Sep 2, 2021

PickABetterUsername01 said:
The best is the best, it's not an opinion it's a fact. For example, ACC got the best GT3's, period, doesn't matter if you prefer X or Y more.

Rfactor2 got their so called amazing tyres but that doesn't mean the best physics, if that was the case they would have the best GT3 game on the market. In the end ACC is better and Raceroom is just as good as rfactor.

This is more or less what I agree with, but with a caveat. The best sim is the one that correlates the best to the goal given to it. There are tests for that, and if you are knowledgeable enough you can find limits in the models.

The caveat is that of course the correlation will also be dependent on the parameters input into the content so it's not like any testing is absolute per-se.

The notion of "best sim" will also change between developer and consumer. I'm more developer minded, so I just really care about the limits of the envelope. A consumer should probably just play whatever sim has the content they want in the best form, otherwise it will be pointless to agonize over it IMO. AMS2 has a lot of good content like a bunch of historic tracks and it's not like the cars are incredibly terrible, so go ahead if that's what you prefer.

Neils on Wheels · Sep 2, 2021

Richard Wilks said:
I am sorry but this is an article about the new update for AMS2.

If i want to read mental onanism about tire of game X vs tire of game Z, it should be in a thread created for that. So no, it's not relevant to the discussion at all, and i have nothing "personal" against this guy, because i don't even know him.

As for Ian Bell, there is a reason why i didnt include him in the list of people i made... but then again, you DO have access to the AC tire, so he wasnt talking about anything that he couldnt see himself

Why do you think we are talking about tyre models? It's related to the new content & current state of the game. And I'm pretty certain you have made your fair share of irrelevant posts, we all have.
I believe that you suggested Renalto hire you to do the physics after the last update....so lets just move on.

Richard Wilks · Sep 2, 2021

Neils on Wheels said:
Why do you think we are talking about tyre models? It's related to the new content & current state of the game. And I'm pretty certain you have made your fair share of irrelevant posts, we all have.
I believe that you suggested Renalto hire you to do the physics after the last update....so lets just move on.

No i never ever sugested that, at least never seriously, so i dont know what you are talking about.

I would have moved on, but you and your buddy keep talking about me for some reason.

2stains · Sep 2, 2021

Kyuubeey said:
CSP's physics guy

It seems he may have access to the Madness tyre model now, in case you don't know he is in the credits in AMS2 for car and track development

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