Automobilista 2 V1.2.3.0 Update Released on Steam

So sad to read that there's such an negative vibe going on regarding this awesome sim with one of the best (in my opinion the best) sim development teams behind it. It must be so sad for them to read that you guys even compare this to PC2. It's the same engine yes; but for the rest you cannot say anymore that this game has the same physics flaws as PC2. Maybe in their first release indeed, but Reiza became so far. This game is now miles; MILES ahead of PC2. I have both games and PC2 doesn't even come close, not to AC, not to ACC but especially not to AMS2/RF2. It's a completely different level that we're talking about. Especially after 1.2.2.0 update. I wonder if you all even seriously tried to give it all a good try after this great update.

In my opinion many people are simply used to the physics of AC and for that reason they cannot get used to the physics of AMS2. It's simply too different. It's much more "alive" then AC as mopro stated. The fact that AMS2 doesn't need mod's to have a great driving experience is in my opinion only a plus. With every update the content grows and it's all of high quality. Yes there is sometimes a leg in the steering wheel visible as cote dazure mentions, but what the hell, did you see AC, how outdated all the tracks looks? And that the interface is not even usable without an mouse? And did you never experience an visual bug in AC?? You must be joking. And that you have to install 10+ mod's in AC to get the game looking OK but then the performance is terrible in the end. Do you call that an optimal VR experience?? In AMS2 everything works and looks out of the box flawless.

Let's all agree to disagree, some like AMS2, some like/prefer AC. But I can recommand you all to at least try the latest version of AMS2, after 1.2.2.0 AMS2 got so much better. Before this update the physics were indeed an serious issue, but after this update the physics/handling became really one of the best in sim racing, in my opinion on par with ACC (but very different) and RF2.

Holy ****, I just had a look at the cost of the DLC.

Wish I had done that before I bought the game, No wonder the user base is so small.

Metla said:

Holy ****, I just had a look at the cost of the DLC.

Wish I had done that before I bought the game, No wonder the user base is so small.

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The pricing of it's DLC's is on par with RF2/RaceRoom/ACC and you get many content for free in AMS2 + many added content for free with the basegame.

Edit: and in MP you can join DLC's tracks for free(so without having the DLC, only the host needs to have the DLC).

Well, That explains why RF2 and Raceroom are also failures.

I've never paid $14 for a single track in ACC....

I quit iRacing to get AWAY from that nonsense.

gamma123152 said:

So sad to read that there's such an negative vibe going on regarding this awesome sim with one of the best (in my opinion the best) sim development teams behind it.

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I'm posting because people keep posting things that will confuse anyone who actually cares to learn about sims. Confusing the overall modeling with the individual car models' parameters is one part of it.

According to the 1.2.2 changelog, there wasn't a *single* modeling change, apart from one bugfix for TC. Yet you're here claiming it's the best sim after 1.2.2 when all they did was change probably bad parameters to just less bad ones. Unless there are some hidden engine changes, you've lost me. Maybe it's more honest to say you prefer the content more than other sims' content, which is fair.

In fact there are no actual tire modeling changes since February when they added tire damping to the models. I'm looking through changelogs and I can't find almost any modeling changes. It's all parameter changes throughout 2021 and most of 2020. That is post-release so I'm sure there were actual modeling changes done pre-release.

Even though Reiza keeps changing the tire parameters (and sometimes mechanical parameters too...) constantly, it doesn't necessarily mean their physics guy is inept. He might be but it is probably just because he got too many cars dumped on him to complete in such a short time. If the model is as difficult to work with as I am claiming it is, then it is even more reason. I at least assume they would have nailed down reasonable parameters years ago if the model was not an issue whatsoever.

Neils on Wheels said:

The wall of text is about the physics of AMS2 specifically the tyre model in comparison to AC. Ironically just about the most interesting thing I've read in here in a long time.

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A wall of text from someone that has no idea how the tire in AMS2 works, because he doesnt work or never worked for either SMS or Reiza. So all his guess work is pulled out of his posterior, to try to sound smart, and to somehow keep hyping AC1 in every thread in this website.

I can also apply a lot of obscurantism and fancy words to say what i THINK the Seta model does, but unless i see the code, or at least the parameters, i would just be guessing, and thats what he is also doing. So all that gibberish is meaningless at the end of the day, except to make himself sound smart, and confuse people even more.

But you don't see me doing that. You don't see Niels Heuskinveld doing it. You don't see Aris from Kunos doing it. You dont see Alex from R3E doing it. You dont see anybody with any semblance of rationality and knowledge doing it, because people who are serious about anything, usually dont make grandeur assumptions and blank statements about things they dont know. They make tentative hypothesis with a lot of caveats.

That's why you dont see any of those people comparing anything unless they have hard data to show for, from both games. And if Niels even did a video comparing aero data from ACC and AMS1, you won't see him doing any tire comparison anytime soon, because he has no access to the tires, and therefore, can only talk about the general sim behaviour, and not about what the tires do or not do in terms of parameters or calculations.

I fire it up every patch... and every patch i come to the conclusion that no matter how talented Reiza are ( and they are ) theres some major flaws under the hood.... and its a pity... i bought the full thing with all DLC's but its been some time now and beginning to think that picking the madness engine may have saved a lot, more then a lot of work in some key areas...but... no salvation to handling and consistency across the board may invalidate that completely...oh and multiplayer is horrid..

Richard Wilks said:

A wall of text from someone that has no idea how the tire in AMS2 works, because he doesnt work or never worked for either SMS or Reiza. So all his guess work is pulled out of his posterior, to try to sound smart, and to somehow keep hyping AC1 in every thread in this website.

I can also apply a lot of obscurantism and fancy words to say what i THINK the Seta model does, but unless i see the code, or at least the parameters, i would just be guessing, and thats what he is also doing. So all that gibberish is meaningless at the end of the day, except to make himself sound smart, and confuse people even more.

But you don't see me doing that. You don't see Niels Heuskinveld doing it. You don't see Aris from Kunos doing it. You dont see Alex from R3E doing it. You dont see anybody with any semblance of rationality and knowledge doing it, because people who are serious about anything, usually dont make grandeur assumptions and blank statements about things they dont know. They make tentative hypothesis with a lot of caveats.

That's why you dont see any of those people comparing anything unless they have hard data to show for, from both games. And if Niels even did a video comparing aero data from ACC and AMS1, you won't see him doing any tire comparison anytime soon, because he has no access to the tires, and therefore, can only talk about the general sim behaviour, and not about what the tires do or not do in terms of parameters or calculations.

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The reason they don't do that is because they are gamedev professionals and it is generally wise to not cause controversy about other professionals' work because they *represent their company*. They don't represent just themselves.

Well, except Aris who claimed ACC has "nothing more to learn from other sims".

I however am an amateur and have a bit more free range to express my view. It's good that there are opposing ones too, the point about not actually seeing the code is valid and true hence I use expressions like "probably" when talking about the implementation. Not sure where I made grand statements apart from making a blanket statement that applies to all (game) physical tire models that I've ever come across.

Thanks for the laugh though, "obscurantism" and "fancy words" that probably refers to basic vehicle dynamics and simulation terms is a good one coming from someone who lumps himself in with the rest of the sim pros and other serious and knowledgeable people.

mantasisg said:

I have worked some on physics of C2 from 1967 Lemans. The car is very heavy, rather tall CG, super powerful. Brakes are rather modest. I just can speculate why, I guess perhaps car this big was given a priority to brakes durability over brakes performance, I have no exact knowledge of that, but such guess makes sense. I can't recall exactly but during the research I read that some Vette, I guess C3 from 69-71 some of those years, or all of those years, had to start braking extremely early. I think if this heavy car lacked braking it was not because tires would have lacked grip, but because brakes would have lacked power.


Thats some nice onboard, with rather good second lap. Pretty awesome on the limit braking into T1:

And thats probably with better tires and better brakes than it was in its youth time.

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It's hard to spot the difference between braking and just coasting so soft it is.

Kyuubeey said:

Thanks for the laugh though, "obscurantism" and "fancy words" that probably refers to basic vehicle dynamics and simulation terms is a good one coming from someone who lumps himself in with the rest of the sim pros and other serious and knowledgeable people.

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It’s great you are still contributing love your posts!

As much as I want to like AMS2 it’s a bit too different from the other sims that it’s a bit jarring to drive it.

24heuresdejeux said:

It’s great you are still contributing love your posts!

As much as I want to like AMS2 it’s a bit too different from the other sims that it’s a bit jarring to drive it.

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I do wanna add that I'm not trying to persuade anyone to start some kind of AMS2 hate campaign or to not play it if they like it. They're just consumer sims anyway, none of the content in them is accurate to begin with, so drive whatever you like.

I do feel it is a bit of a shame that it seemingly has issues providing alright behavior in pretty basic situations though. The only reason I even talk about it is because you don't need to look at a telemetry trace to even tell. It has gotten better though so we see if it's just down to parameters or what. ACC was also pretty bad in the very beginning and it's not like the tire model is fundamentally different from AC's.

Perhaps my posts will just rile up the AMS fanboys and get some to at least think about it. A lot of things are being said about tire modeling in sims for the last forever but at least I can offer opinions from the perspective of someone who's done some sim car model work. Some think I'm just talking bullshit though, but whatever, anyone who's done actual sim work will understand what I'm writing and why I came to the conclusions. Feel free to disregard it if it gets your panties in a bunch.

Kyuubeey said:

I'm posting because people keep posting things that will confuse anyone who actually cares to learn about sims. Confusing the overall modeling with the individual car models' parameters is one part of it.

According to the 1.2.2 changelog, there wasn't a *single* modeling change, apart from one bugfix for TC. Yet you're here claiming it's the best sim after 1.2.2 when all they did was change probably bad parameters to just less bad ones. Unless there are some hidden engine changes, you've lost me. Maybe it's more honest to say you prefer the content more than other sims' content, which is fair.

In fact there are no actual tire modeling changes since February when they added tire damping to the models. I'm looking through changelogs and I can't find almost any modeling changes. It's all parameter changes throughout 2021 and most of 2020. That is post-release so I'm sure there were actual modeling changes done pre-release.

Even though Reiza keeps changing the tire parameters (and sometimes mechanical parameters too...) constantly, it doesn't necessarily mean their physics guy is inept. He might be but it is probably just because he got too many cars dumped on him to complete in such a short time. If the model is as difficult to work with as I am claiming it is, then it is even more reason. I at least assume they would have nailed down reasonable parameters years ago if the model was not an issue whatsoever.

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Long story short:

Yes you're right, I was wrong about the version number, it all changed since 1.2.0.0, not 1.2.2.0.

This made the major change and many others agree with me (you read back the comments everywhere on the internet regarding this update, many share this opinion with me, such as the poster of THIS "news item" here in racedepartment "Mike Smith" "Currently in version 1.2, the racing sim has made massive strides through its development."):

PHYSICS & FFB

• Revised tire tread, center of gravity height & drag coefficient parameters for all cars

gamma123152 said:

Long story short:

Yes you're right, I was wrong about the version number, it all changed since 1.2.0.0, not 1.2.2.0.

I think that this made the major change:

PHYSICS & FFB

• Revised tire tread, center of gravity height & drag coefficient parameters for all cars

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Yep, that's the big update.

The interesting thing here is that tire wise it's all parameter changes. Unless they did some hidden engine changes (Not impossible that they ALSO update the model while they update car parameters! I would just think they advertise about it), it's just gonna be down to what they decided to use the model for, as opposed to how the model itself works. I know it's very difficult to separate because not everyone is able to produce the same car in two sims (Or in some sims' case, they are just not moddable or open at all...) but it's worth trying to at least appreciate the difference between "the engine" and "the content".

Most of the difference between AC and ACC seems to also be due to just better data and implementation, not due to multipoint tire model or "chassis flex" or whatever else is the popular misunderstood buzzword of the week.

If AMS2 was open and they let us use their full tire tools then I'd just push the engine and post the results.

Parameter changes made the HUGE difference then

It was simply "off" before.

Kyuubeey said:

Perhaps my posts will just rile up the AMS fanboys and get some to at least think about it. A lot of things are being said about tire modeling in sims for the last forever but at least I can offer opinions from the perspective of someone who's done some sim car model work. Some think I'm just talking bullshit though, but whatever, anyone who's done actual sim work will understand what I'm writing and why I came to the conclusions. Feel free to disregard it if it gets your panties in a bunch.

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There appears to be exactly one fanboy in this thread.

Pooh, crap, typical new release Reiza cars that don't drive anything like a GT3 car

But for real, thanks heaps Reiza, I love the old girls. Drive amazing especially the R Spec in the rain.

Metla said:

Well, That explains why RF2 and Raceroom are also failures.

I've never paid $14 for a single track in ACC....

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your're right. At this cost a game must be a totally failure.
Oh, wait. Forgot iRacing?

Metla said:

Well, That explains why RF2 and Raceroom are also failures.

I've never paid $14 for a single track in ACC....

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Love those cheap people that figure everything is free. Lets not support anything because, well your cheap.

Kevin Troschinski said:

yeah you are right its been a couple of weeks ago
So only remap or complete document folder remove like "earlier" ?

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Remap should be fine.^^