Worried about the future of rF2

[Richard Eriksson]

As the topic suggests...

As a long time ISI supporter and follower, i am now feeling a bit worried for the future.The number of new users coming in to rFactor2 seems to be dwindling.

Also there is a long time between the new official content. And even when there is official content released, it seems to fail to gather an interest (Civics in December) amongst the yet unitiated.

Also, the mod community seems a lot more reluctant than for rF1, with very few members adding content.This is even more worrying as it was the foundation of rF1 and a big selling point for bringing more people to the franchise (race anything you like).

ISI now also faces a stiff competition as the "sim" genre has become "hot" again with more titles in the works, that seem to gather a LOT more interest: AC, pCars etc.

The old veterans like myself are finding ourselves drawn to the likes of GSC, and newcomers are moving towards AC and probably DTM Experience.


I start this topic to see if someone shares my worries, and also to discuss if something can be done to once again bring more interest to rF2?


My personal idea is to go for Steam greenlighting (i actually REALLY like Steam as a platform), to gain exposure and also simplify the purchasing as well as updating.
Connecting it to Workshop makes modding interesting again, like what AC proposes.


I want rF2 to succeed, it is by far the most comprehensive take on simulating the actual race mechanics and based on that it should be the goto title for the serious sim-user, but right now i fear it is not.


Discussions on graphics i will however discard personally, as a) rF2 is pretty enough and b) the prettiest of settings in something like pCars is inaccesible to 95% of users.


So, what is your view of the status of the product?



Points of improvement needed going forward as identified in this thread so far:

* Better GUI (incoming)
* Steam integration and release
* Possible new distribution method that would automate updates and sync, if not steam
* New official content
* More transparent development
* Shorter build intervals
* More efficient code and optimization of codebase
* A possibility to "lock down" the core functionality, to deliver something considered stable and final
* New updater that allows automatic updating of content as well, including adding NEW
content

 

[Guy Moulton]

Don't get me wrong- I think rF2 is fantastic. It has features that make the racing amazing. For autoclutch cars it is second-to-none. The ISI tracks are as good as any tracks in any game. The base game is awesome. IMHO ISI makes too many bad cars- just like in rF1. But that's why the game needs to be accessible to modders and that is the disconnect.

When it comes to racing nothing I have played can tough rF2. Realroad, flatspotting, the way you have to take care of your tires and manage a race- THAT is racing and rF2 does that better than any other sim.

I beta test for MAK-Corp and for that I got a car in the IFS3 mod

 

[David O'Reilly]

Reading between the lines I have a feeling that ISI have reacted to some strident complainers about default setups being too hard. They have produced some easy setups and unless I, m mistaken the only way to do that while retaining accurate physics is with an understeering setup.
This has led to complaints from a possibly more astute group of tuners about front tyres overworking.
Its not that hard to move the balance and get the rear tyres working.#
IMO the former policy of worse defaults sent you on a journey of working on and understanding setups, which I really liked. I guess its a case of not being able to please us all.
#less diff lock on power side, softer: Springs, slow bump shocks, tyre pressures on front and harder at rear.

 

[Guy Moulton]

Nope. I don't use the ISI setups. Wrongo

 

[James Maskell]

I dont think he is specifically talking about you, more of a broader statement.

 

[David O'Reilly]

@James Maskell yes you are correct in your interpretation of my statement.
Correcto!

 

[William Néron]

What I'm the most afraid is seeing the proliferation of Payware mod such as URD GTs.
And the most frightening thing about it is that it seems to be popular enough to be widely use. Some will argue those are cheap, but honestly, if I wanted to pay for new cars, I would be on iRacing instead of rFactor 2.

 

[Cosimo]

rF2 is the best sim for me. Can't drive anything else, though I tried (iRacing and AC, f.ex.).

Honestly, I'm not worried. I just wish we had even the same amount of people in MP but not scattered around so many almost empty servers

Payware is fine by me if it means mods like EGT. iRacing on that front is ridiculously overpriced.

Everybody wants quality mods nowadays, and they complain if they don't get them. When modders take a year or more to release quality work, it really takes that amount of time to build quality stuff.

Just my two cents.

 

[JeffL]

What I'm the most afraid is seeing the proliferation of Payware mod such as URD GTs.
And the most frightening thing about it is that it seems to be popular enough to be widely use. Some will argue those are cheap, but honestly, if I wanted to pay for new cars, I would be on iRacing instead of rFactor 2.

I kinda think we should pay for these, if it's quality I hate to see anybody work for free. I have about a hundred hours on the URD mod. Not sure what that works out to in per hours but I think it's worth it. Support your favorite modders they need food.

 

[William Néron]

Well then that can launch the debate of; Do they do it to provide something fun for the community? Or just as a way of getting a paycheck?

If its the first, fine by me, I might donate a bit if I like it,
If its the second, well that will keep me away of it in all honesty.

Because for me, a mod is something free, develop because it was fun to and released so people can have fun playing with it too; not to profit from it (Well that's how I see it when I play around modding games).

Considering I bought rFactor 2 with the perspective of having a good library of free content down the line -that would serve as a justification for the $80 it costs- this would be a let down if this came to be the norm of good mods. And most leagues that fit North-American time and my overall criterias seem to go that way so far...

 

[JeffL]

It's an old argument, do artists create for their own satisfaction or sustenance. A society that does not support its artist will have no art. Rfactor 1 was an amazing time in the gaming world but a what point do people just say "I can't waste my time on this I need to get a job". I personally want the best of the best working on things I can't do, if they make money to support themselves they might continue to do it, which in turn will enhance their skills and inevitability the product. Which in the end is good for all of us.

 

[William Néron]

I'm just worried, I sure hope it won't become a standard, because in the end I will regret having bought rF2, especially if most of the leagues start using those mods.

 

[JeffL]

Don't worry they will all be monetized, like it or not that is the capitalist world we live in.

 

[Decenten]

I dont think rfactor is dead. There are many leagues in Australia that are running rFactor and next year the current group I am with will be running a full season of rf2. You just need to look round. They are currently modding the v8sc championship so that each of the models will have a different characteristics. If anyone is interested in signing up head over to in2simracers.net

 

[Cosimo]

Maybe I can add a slightly different perspective on the modding argument.
I'm not a modder, but as author of the Delta Best plugin, I can tell you that I started working on it for myself, for my fun and enjoyment. I probably put around a couple of hundred hours of work in that plugin.

I believe (my personal opinion) that such plugin adds good value to rF2. Giving it away was my choice, but it is my belief that giving it away for free lowers its perceived value at least for a large part of its users.

I wanted to test the idea, so I put up a donation link. What happened? Around 6-7 people donated a small sum each. I'm really grateful to them, they showed appreciation for my work and that is definitely something that keeps me motivated to give to the community. Of course it's not for the money at all. I couldn't buy much with it. In fact, with that money I made a donation for the Nordschleife track, another massive work that really deserves appreciation IMO.

So it's not about the money. However, more and more users want very high quality mods and that takes massive amounts of time and dedication. Modders that do that for their own fun and enjoyment have to be really determined to continue working on a project for a long time in their spare time, etc... Let's appreciate what they do.

Just getting and getting from the community without giving back at least a little bit is not fair IMO.

 

[Daniel Almeida]

I'll add my two cents here. I've been a simracer for two decades now, but I'm also an aviation enthusiast and used to spend many hours with Microsoft Flight Simulator in the past (various versions of it). And I think the simracing community has a lot to learn from the flightsim community in that regard.

Fact is that the amount of add-on content for FS9 and FSX is huge and what is more important, the quality of it is also on a completely different level compared to what we have for simracing today.

Airports modelled to incredible accuracy, terrain and mesh files with photo quality for most of the world, planes with perfect 3 d models and so accurate system simulations that you could use it to prepare for an ATP license.

Now the interesting thing is that while most of the high quality addons are payware, there are still freeware developers around doing stunning work (The Project Tupolev guys were a prime example of that a few years ago). So while payware pushes the quality to new heights, freeware guys won't disappear.

In the end, it's a hobby and if you enjoy it, you should be able to spend a few bucks on it. If the cheapskate mentality prevails in simracing, the modding community will die a slow death. But seeing that the URD mod seems to be a success, I'm quite optimistic myself...

 

[David O'Reilly]

There are quite frankly enough cars now to keep me busy in Club and League racing for about 2-3 years.
Current Multiplayer agenda:
League:
-Virtual World Sports car series. Lola LMP1 (freeware), URD (payware), ISI C6R (original content)
-World Series by Renault FR 3.5 2014
Club: (just the ones I hate to miss as they are so good)
-Ferrari 458 Challenge (freeware)-spectacularly good
-Spec Miata (freeware)
-F1 ASR 1992 (freeware)-very very good
-BES 1.0 GT3 (freeware)
-Dallara DW12 Indycar (original Content)
Plus I want to find time to race:
The ISI Nissan GT1 (original Content)
ISI Masters. (original Content)

All the original content cars and freeware I have listed are the ones that I rate as great cars.
Some of them are spectacular.
I feel that there is little or no correlation between what you pay and what you get. IMO the best ones cost me nothing. Still I have paid for URD and wish them well. I just dont like the cars so it was 9 euro for "research".
Personally I just dont see the concern.
I also would like to have this thread renamed as the subject has moved on a bit and when I see its title it seems so negative.
anyway, hope to see you on track. peace out

 

[Gijs van Elderen]

The thread tittle renamed?

Come on! It's brilliant!

From my point of view: Ironic...

 

[Gary Lennon]

The thread title is significant as to where and when and the reasons it was started, for AMD users maybe the turning point was 14.1 driver set in conjunction with ISI reworkings of content, whatever the reasons are rF2 for me is in a much much happier place today than back when we all had some kind of concerns, for me confidence in ISI is good again after seeing how they quietly just went and reworked all their GT cars from something that was very unappealing to me in to something exceptional.

 

[Richard Eriksson]

I would agree with the sentiment that for us simracers rF2 is a much more stable and better offer today (many fixes, new rendering pipeline, 64bit support, awesome content added).

However my initial concern about attracting more people not accustomed to simracing since before is still there. The title is still a bit too rough around the edges and unfriendly, to be really smooth to use.

If you run a league, with long races and big grids, the simulation aspect is, as it's always been, amazing. If you see the sim for the first time, coming from a different background, it is however largely unappealing.

For ISI to make money and "up their game", the new blood is needed.

So now it's less of an argument as to if the platform will stay alive, because the new additions show ISI are willing to keep advancing the most serious racing simulation out there, which in my mind is rF2. It's more a concern regarding it becoming a closed affair for veteran simracers (most of us are in this category), running in closed off leagues (concieved as elitist by new community members). This would lead to a drying up of income and interest for ISI, leading in turn to them having a harder time to fund and roll out the changes that would benefit the sim for all usergroups.

Also, the competition for "veteran simracers" will be fiercer as well... AC seems to attract the mod support at the moment and is heading in a good direction with physics and advanced racesim features (track condition, tire wear ratios etc.)

Therefore ISI will need to attract mainstream groups, to find a base for development of the more advanced features, like AC does...

Also it should be marketed as the "full racing sim", the most real handling you can find. This will definitely attract the masses, and from the many that will try it out of curiousity, if the platform is good and easy to use, some will stick around to fill up our ranks.

 

[RaceNut]

However my initial concern about attracting more people not accustomed to simracing since before is still there. The title is still a bit too rough around the edges and unfriendly, to be really smooth to use.

If you run a league, with long races and big grids, the simulation aspect is, as it's always been, amazing. If you see the sim for the first time, coming from a different background, it is however largely unappealing.

This will likely become an even bigger factor as more titles offer better graphics, sounds, UI and general game dynamics. Someone who might otherwise be attracted to rF2 physics may be quite put off after playing something that looks like Pcars. As much as I like rF2's driving dynamics, I have to admit that after playing AC for a time and now testing in Pcars almost daily, rF2's graphics leave me a little wanting. The bar continues to be raised as new titles evolve and become mature and polished.

Don't get me wrong, I will continue to play rF2 along with others but, there are times where I am willing to trade a bit of physics for some eye & ear candy. As it stands now, it all comes down to one's priorities but, that fact also serves to divide the community. It'd just be nice if we could get all of those things rolled up in one tidy package. Ah, the quest for the Holy Grail of Sim-Racing.