Worried about the future of rF2

[Richard Eriksson]

As the topic suggests...

As a long time ISI supporter and follower, i am now feeling a bit worried for the future.The number of new users coming in to rFactor2 seems to be dwindling.

Also there is a long time between the new official content. And even when there is official content released, it seems to fail to gather an interest (Civics in December) amongst the yet unitiated.

Also, the mod community seems a lot more reluctant than for rF1, with very few members adding content.This is even more worrying as it was the foundation of rF1 and a big selling point for bringing more people to the franchise (race anything you like).

ISI now also faces a stiff competition as the "sim" genre has become "hot" again with more titles in the works, that seem to gather a LOT more interest: AC, pCars etc.

The old veterans like myself are finding ourselves drawn to the likes of GSC, and newcomers are moving towards AC and probably DTM Experience.


I start this topic to see if someone shares my worries, and also to discuss if something can be done to once again bring more interest to rF2?


My personal idea is to go for Steam greenlighting (i actually REALLY like Steam as a platform), to gain exposure and also simplify the purchasing as well as updating.
Connecting it to Workshop makes modding interesting again, like what AC proposes.


I want rF2 to succeed, it is by far the most comprehensive take on simulating the actual race mechanics and based on that it should be the goto title for the serious sim-user, but right now i fear it is not.


Discussions on graphics i will however discard personally, as a) rF2 is pretty enough and b) the prettiest of settings in something like pCars is inaccesible to 95% of users.


So, what is your view of the status of the product?



Points of improvement needed going forward as identified in this thread so far:

* Better GUI (incoming)
* Steam integration and release
* Possible new distribution method that would automate updates and sync, if not steam
* New official content
* More transparent development
* Shorter build intervals
* More efficient code and optimization of codebase
* A possibility to "lock down" the core functionality, to deliver something considered stable and final
* New updater that allows automatic updating of content as well, including adding NEW
content

 

[Jerry McComas]

Just my $0.02. We have to remember that the content ISI released with rF1 was mediocre at best. The modding community made it great. But, IMHO, it surpassed GTR, GTR2, Netcar, etc. because of it's moddability and it's netcode stability ... 40+ cars, "mostly" stable connections.

Two other points: It was a couple of years before the modding comm started releasing the best mods for rF1. Obviously it "should" be quicker now, due to prior knowledge, but it's still pretty early for serious mods to commit the time/effort, because of potential changes ... recently a new file structure, lol, so all a wary. And it is much more difficult to do a great mod in rF2 vs. rF1.

Secondly, there are a lot of new "players" in the field ... pCARS, GTR (raceroom), AC, etc. which are "prettier", but the physics and online stability is of primary importance to simracers, I think. As said above, once you are in the vehicle and racing, the eye candy is much less important.

However, I am disappointed the rF2 isn't farther along ... I've owned it for 1.5 years, and really expected the physics to be farther along, and at least a static pit crew instead of that stupid red arrow, lol. Rain, and the other stuff is getting better, but the UI, though they at least have listened to complaints, is still convoluted, and obviously designed to mimic their "perceived" competition, Shift, Forsa, GT5.

I'm still hopeful and don't think any of the competition can surpass them, if they keep making improvements in the things their core audience wants.

 

[Frederic Schornstein]

Just had an awesome club race with 18 drivers here at RD. RF2 is definetely not dead and I don't think it will be in the future. A lot of leauges are still running rFactor1 and we will see where they are going. The only alternative for stable leauge racing is iRacing at the moment and I dont think you will get all rF1 lovers into that.

 

[David O'Reilly]

I was in the same race.
A few weeks ago we had a 90 minute GT3 race with 32 drivers.
Once the flag drops its total immersion.

I am loving RF2. Sorry but I find it hard to get worried about games that will be ace once X Y and Z are sorted.
The tyre model is superb. Changes the way you drive from arcade to real life, weather, I havent even scratched the surface there yet.
I may be naive but every couple of weeks there is a new car to drive. There are already more tracks and cars than I have time to race on.
Over the next few months I hope to be doing a sports car league, endurance league (we ran 6-8 and 12 hour races last year very successfully) and a Formula Renault 3.5 league. This along with regular club races in the Dallara DW12, the Spec Miata, the Ferrari 458 Challenge and to spice it up some Formula ISI (F1) races. And thats just the multiplayer races.
If I'm keen this week I can do the Top gear test track in any one of 4 of the best cars in Rfactor 2.

Every update improves the game more and my latest AMD drivers gave me about 40% boost in FPS.
With a 3.3 ghz 6 core and AMD 7850 twin frozr its 60-85 most of the time and often more.
Its ace.
Thanks.

 

[John-Eric Saxén]

However, I am disappointed the rF2 isn't farther along ... I've owned it for 1.5 years, and really expected the physics to be farther along, and at least a static pit crew instead of that stupid red arrow, lol. Rain, and the other stuff is getting better, but the UI, though they at least have listened to complaints, is still convoluted, and obviously designed to mimic their "perceived" competition, Shift, Forsa, GT5.

I'm still hopeful and don't think any of the competition can surpass them, if they keep making improvements in the things their core audience wants.

I don't agree that there would be many core "issues" remaining with rF2. Rain is unfinished, but that's pretty much it. rF2 has lots of features that are in no other sims, much more important features than some animated pit crew. Also there has been progress, 64-bit version came recently and Indy content two months ago.

It's just that marketing, accessibility, ease-of-use, mod-friendliness etc. isn't something that ISI seems to focus on. It wasn't the case with rF1, but back then they didn't have as many serious competitors. Competing products, which are all more or less worse as core simulators than rF2 in my view, are much better in above mentioned aspects. And competitors also have closed the gap to rF2 in physics; although I feel the difference, the random racer won't, I'm afraid. This will ultimately move players elsewhere, and the more popular the platform, the more mod-makers it will attract. Simple. For example from what I've heard, rF2 is now considering moving to Steam, but this is two years too late.

 

[David O'Reilly]

Guys I thought for those who had not yet experienced how great RF2 can be this little snippet might give you an insight. Its just a Club Race where 5 drivers arrived and had a ball.
The 458 Challenge is a virtuoso mod and one of the very best RF2 cars IMO. For me it ranks with The Spec Miata and the BES GT3 as the current must have 3rd party mods.

1st is a video courtesy of @Davy Vandevenne
Try to watch in on a big screen (like your TV is poss). I was watching it last night on the tv and my wife came home and sat down and watched it through with me making comments as if a real life race on TV.
Then a race writeup which details some of the impact of an accurate tyre model and tyre wear on the racing.Your setup has a very real impact on tyre wear. Where else I ask will someone hare off into the distance but come back to you as his setup is too tyre hungry.

Well that was a great bit of racing.

Davy Vandevene had huge pace in quali. I rode on board for a lap and got some ideas about line and gear selection and found 2 sec. He was kind enough to also send me a setup. I tested it but strangely I was faster with mine.

Race 1.

Miroslav was P2 on grid and they both started to make a big gap. 5 sec after 2 laps, 10 sec after 5 laps. Maybe 15 sec at ½ dist.

I had a small but comfortable gap to Stefan and Dennis.

Miroslav mentioned in the lobby that he was getting very bad tyre wear! I wondered what might happen!!!!

At ½ distance he started to come back to me. I tried to keep good pace but stay patient. With 5 laps to go I was now on his gearbox and he seemed to have tyre issues. On the exit of T4 he had loss of traction and a sideways moment. It was enough to get alongside and claim the apex of T5.

It was very realistic stuff and quite thrilling.

I finished P2 behind Davy who was off in the distance by some 30 sec.


Race 2

Miroslav was optimistic at T1 at the start and had a slight “Grosjean at Spa” moment (no offence intended and Miroslav has apologised to the field and all accepted). Which effectively gave us a reverse start order from that point.


Davy hunted me down quite quickly and I was able to defend successfully but then decided it was all costing me pace to try to catch to Dennis and Stefan so let him through and give him a chance to take the win.and me a chance to follow him and pass the guys. Miroslav was P5 and say +5 sec. He had good pace but I suspected that by the time he caught me his tyres would again be on the way out so I was relaxed about that challenge.

Well they both had found a bit more pace and I couldn't do it. I once “smelled blood” as Stefan put it but he upped his pace. Stefan had a couple of moments but both times I was too far back to capitalise. I was P4.


Thanks for the race guys. It was a beautiful mod and great mod for close racing.

Cheers.

 

[Guy Moulton]

IMHO the RACING in rF2 is second to none because of all these features. But the DRIVING in some of these other games is just as good or better.

I have noticed a lot of sim racers are more into hopping on track and running some laps and this is mostly what they do. They want a race to be a bunch of cars on track all running laps together to see who can string together the fastest bunch of laps and that's all. This is not racing. Things like rain, flatspots, managing the car and car wear and changing road conditions are just a PITA to people who want to just run in circles. But those features are what make the RACING so good. The longer your race is, the more that the awesome stuff in rF2 shines and this is another problem- a lot of people want to do 20 min races. In 20 mins you don't get a fraction of what the game is.

So a lot of people are put off rF2 and that's part of why it is not doing very well. It's really the lack of modding that is worrisome. Without modders, rF2 will wither on the vine.

 

[Frederic Schornstein]

IMHO the RACING in rF2 is second to none because of all these features. But the DRIVING in some of these other games is just as good or better.

I have noticed a lot of sim racers are more into hopping on track and running some laps and this is mostly what they do. They want a race to be a bunch of cars on track all running laps together to see who can string together the fastest bunch of laps and that's all. This is not racing. Things like rain, flatspots, managing the car and car wear and changing road conditions are just a PITA to people who want to just run in circles. But those features are what make the RACING so good. The longer your race is, the more that the awesome stuff in rF2 shines and this is another problem- a lot of people want to do 20 min races. In 20 mins you don't get a fraction of what the game is.

So a lot of people are put off rF2 and that's part of why it is not doing very well. It's really the lack of modding that is worrisome. Without modders, rF2 will wither on the vine.

I am more worried about, that a lot of mods are relatively "low quality" on the physics side compared to the ISI content. Recently we had some good releases like the Ferrari Challange and the Miatas, but several mods were not really up to the standard, that ISI has set with their content.

I personally hate DLC, but if ISI would say, that they build 5 GT3's or some prototypes (always the stupid licensing get in the way) or for example the whole BTCC grip including the rear wheel dirve cars. I would say: Shut up and take my money, because there is nothing out there that for me is as good on othe physics side, that I could choose it over rF2.

On the track side we have a fairly decent amount now, but more high quality cars would be great. If you look at how much iRacing charges you for 1 single car it is really ridiculous.
I dont want rF2 to go that route, but it would be nice if ISI or Studios like SimBin or Reiza could jump on the train and provide us some more high quality content and if it costs something so what? If the quality is ok nobody has a problem to pay a few bucks. Look at the URD Mod. How many people were and are against payware, but it is hard to find someone who doesn't own that mod

 

[Guy Moulton]

I would not pay ISI another dime. I paid $80, that's more than enough. The stuff they have put out for content so far has been very low quality- wrong vehicle specs, very little licensed content, fake skins, TERRIBLE physics on many mods and stupid crap like that quad and the trackday car the world already forgot.

ISI needs to step up their game. But first, they need to attract modders back and let THEM make the content. ISI has failed in that respect.

 

[JeffL]

I remember putting hundreds of dollars, one quarter at a time in "Space Invader". I think we got it pretty cheap now.

 

[Hoogs]

I have spent the last 2 years getting, if you'll pardon the phrase, "balls deep" into sim racing and I play pretty much all the platforms.
I see good and bad in every single platform. Each has its strengths and weaknesses. I for one am not concerned that rF2 is going to wither and die on the vine. I see a large rF2 fan base that will likely never stray far.
The bottom line is every major platform available right now is still under considerable development and quite likely might stay that way.

The good and the bad in rF2 IMO are as such
1) Poor graphical optimization. I'm going to say graphics do matter. I want all my senses to be triggered in a simulation. Real life is beautiful. Why not simulate realistic textures too. rF2 is crushing my system, but iRacing/GSC/Assetto Corsa run smoother than a babies bottom and look great. rF2 textures look flat and out dated. This hurts the immersion for me.

2) From what I understand building a quality Mod for rF2 is a huge task in part due to the high fidelity of rF2's physics model. This reduces the amount of great "free" content for the mean time. It would be nice to see rF2 improve some dev tools for modders.

3) FFB is excellent. To me this could easily be the best feature in rF2.

4) Tire temp readings seem exaggerated. I'd love for someone to enlighten me on this topic.

5) The real road also strikes me as exaggerated, however I have no RL experience racing and there for nothing to make a comparison to.

I sincerely have the highest hopes for rF2. I'd love to see graphical optimizations and a move to DX11. The improvements in lighting alone would be all the eye candy desired.

 

[JeffL]

I have spent the last 2 years getting, if you'll pardon the phrase, "balls deep" into sim racing and I play pretty much all the platforms.
I see good and bad in every single platform. Each has its strengths and weaknesses. I for one am not concerned that rF2 is going to wither and die on the vein. I see a large rF2 fan base that will likely

Will likely what? I need the last chapter of the book.

 

[Hoogs]

Sorry I hit the enter key before finishing my post "DOH!"

 

[JeffL]

Yea I agree it's a graphics hog, but when the track and mod are right and the hdr is on, I think it really looks great, there's a crunch in blacks that is very hard to get in video. I really like it when it's right. I run all the sims too so I get ya, it can be inconsistent but man when this sim is right it is right on.

 

[Frederic Schornstein]

I would not pay ISI another dime. I paid $80, that's more than enough. The stuff they have put out for content so far has been very low quality- wrong vehicle specs, very little licensed content, fake skins, TERRIBLE physics on many mods and stupid crap like that quad and the trackday car the world already forgot.

ISI needs to step up their game. But first, they need to attract modders back and let THEM make the content. ISI has failed in that respect.

What???
You cant say that seriously. Some cars are not final yet like the Indycar, but the FR, FISI, Megane, 370z, Corvette, Camaro, GTR, Civic, 60s F1, Skip Barber are the best sim cars out there or are they all rubbish?
What cars do you drive in rF2, if the ISI cars are crap???

 

[Guy Moulton]

1) the clutch simulation on ISI cars is horrid. The GT cars' clutches are OK I guess since the real cars have a semi-auto gearbox but you can't drive the real older cars completely clutchless like you can in rF2. If you can ignore the clutch and drive a 60's formula car, it is a rubbish. The same goes for the Howstons- again, read some books on racing in that era and NOT ONE will say anything about ignoring the clutch, it doesn't really matter (though at the least the Howstons have somewhat of a clutch simulation though poor as it is). Read the book Going Faster to learn how to use a clutch properly and you sill see that the Skippy is not driven in real life as it is in the game. It is a fundamental flaw with the game.

2) the GT cars- Corvette, GTR, Camaro- all have serious problems with the front end. These are not well made cars and drive like crap.

3) I do not have significant time with the FISI or FR. the F2 is a very good car. Open wheelers with an auto-clutch seem to be ISI's forte.

4) the Indycar is so inaccurate, I don't even consider it an Indycar. It is terrible to drive and is fundamentally a bad car. They should not have released it in this state.

The URD mods are solid- great cars to drive without the fundamental problems of the ISI cars. The BES cars (except the Porsche which has an undertray issue, the Merc with the mirror issue) are the best GT cars in the game and I have driven them quite a bit. The 370Z by ISI is made differently from the other GT cars and is pretty good. The Ferrari Challenge mod too is well made and will be awesome once the bugs that remain are worked out.

 

[Frederic Schornstein]

1) the clutch simulation on ISI cars is horrid. The GT cars' clutches are OK I guess since the real cars have a semi-auto gearbox but you can't drive the real older cars completely clutchless like you can in rF2. If you can ignore the clutch and drive a 60's formula car, it is a rubbish. The same goes for the Howstons- again, read some books on racing in that era and NOT ONE will say anything about ignoring the clutch, it doesn't really matter (though at the least the Howstons have somewhat of a clutch simulation though poor as it is). Read the book Going Faster to learn how to use a clutch properly and you sill see that the Skippy is not driven in real life as it is in the game. It is a fundamental flaw with the game.

2) the GT cars- Corvette, GTR, Camaro- all have serious problems with the front end. These are not well made cars and drive like crap.

3) I do not have significant time with the FISI or FR. the F2 is a very good car. Open wheelers with an auto-clutch seem to be ISI's forte.

4) the Indycar is so inaccurate, I don't even consider it an Indycar. It is terrible to drive and is fundamentally a bad car. They should not have released it in this state.

The URD mods are solid- great cars to drive without the fundamental problems of the ISI cars. The BES cars (except the Porsche which has an undertray issue, the Merc with the mirror issue) are the best GT cars in the game and I have driven them quite a bit. The 370Z by ISI is made differently from the other GT cars and is pretty good. The Ferrari Challenge mod too is well made and will be awesome once the bugs that remain are worked out.

1) Agree, but honestly I dont care about clutch, but its a fair point and important for a real complete simulation

2) Have you driven them ever with a proper setup and with proper driving? The Frontend is really nice, but you have to be smooth with the cars. You cant throw them around as they way 1.3 tons

3) Yes, all good cars

4) As I said the IndyCar needs a lot of work way too fast and sticky at the moment

Last point: What???? BES cars??? If you think they are the best Mod you can stay with rF1, because that is the level where the cars are at and I know how to drive them I have driven at least 8 1hour+ races with them and had multiple wins and finished on the podium everytime, but I would never consider them great. They are fun yes, but they are pretty flat in termy of their physics.

Have you ever driven the ISI Corvette with a good setup and good FFB settings? It is amazing, that you can feel everything the car is doing. Of course you cant push it rF1 style and brake lock ups, overturing the front etc. will kill your tires in a few laps, but that is bad driving and that shouldnt be rewarded anyway.

 

[Gijs van Elderen]

1) the clutch simulation on ISI cars is horrid. The GT cars' clutches are OK I guess since the real cars have a semi-auto gearbox but you can't drive the real older cars completely clutchless like you can in rF2. If you can ignore the clutch and drive a 60's formula car, it is a rubbish. The same goes for the Howstons- again, read some books on racing in that era and NOT ONE will say anything about ignoring the clutch, it doesn't really matter (though at the least the Howstons have somewhat of a clutch simulation though poor as it is). Read the book Going Faster to learn how to use a clutch properly and you sill see that the Skippy is not driven in real life as it is in the game. It is a fundamental flaw with the game.

2) the GT cars- Corvette, GTR, Camaro- all have serious problems with the front end. These are not well made cars and drive like crap.

3) I do not have significant time with the FISI or FR. the F2 is a very good car. Open wheelers with an auto-clutch seem to be ISI's forte.

4) the Indycar is so inaccurate, I don't even consider it an Indycar. It is terrible to drive and is fundamentally a bad car. They should not have released it in this state.

The URD mods are solid- great cars to drive without the fundamental problems of the ISI cars. The BES cars (except the Porsche which has an undertray issue, the Merc with the mirror issue) are the best GT cars in the game and I have driven them quite a bit. The 370Z by ISI is made differently from the other GT cars and is pretty good. The Ferrari Challenge mod too is well made and will be awesome once the bugs that remain are worked out.

I guess you have a lot of real life experience. Even Indy-cars.

 

[Guy Moulton]

The other Corvettes in the game drive a lot better IMHO. Yes, I have put some wheel time in with it and the ISI Corvette just is not right. Like so many ISI cars, the dront tires get shredded and the rears stay pristine. Real cars and sim cars from other mods behave differently and the rears take more abuse than the fronts. I know how to set up a car, it's not my setups or driving style. Better cars from other mods behave closer to reality.

The BES cars lap at the same pace (within a few 1/10's) of the real cars at Monza, Nurbs and Silverstone. We had a driver in our series who raced a [real] MP4 and Lambo in the BES and he said that the BES mod is spot on. At Monza and Nurbs he was really close to the real track times. It's not so much my opinion as it is the opinion of someone with some real life experience, mixed with what I know of the cars and the lap times they achieve.

I guess you have a lot of real life experience. Even Indy-cars.

I don't base my viewpoint on these cars so much on personal opinion as objective fact. Look at the specs and behavior of the real cars. The ISI version of this car lacks most of the features that make the car what it is in real life and they have inaccurate set up options and some wrong specs. They do not behave in a similar way to how the real cars do.

 

[JeffL]

I have driven a lot of cars. What is your reference point. I can 2 different cars that are Identical and they can feel different. What is temp? What is the humidity? How about elevation? Were the tires made on monday when everyone was hungover? There is just too many variables to make that kind of statement. If feels real to you then drive it, if it doesn't then don't. Sim racing is all about your experience when you sit down to have fun. I think rf2 can be fantastic fun and sometimes it's not. Rf2 like AC and GSC and others are all on the cutting edge of virtual reality and I think we should support them all.

 

[yusupov]

this isn't apropos but guy moulton may or may not have experience racing real cars, but i do have experience racing as guy moulton. (mak corp f3 mod) thought it was a cool racer name & then realized id seen some posts of yours on the rf2 board