PC1 Pcars: A community divided

[Nathan Robinson]

Continuation of Part 1: http://www.racedepartment.com/forum/threads/banned-for-no-reason.47384/

Its hard to believe a game has taken a community over like this. Now with legal proceedings, its kind of become a joke for simmers. I have been at this a while now and have never seen a game invoke so much negative and positive reaction. May the discussions continue


Ps. While i continue to support pcars, i respect RD for allowing the freedom of expression to all its members.

 

[Xosé Estrada]

Great post Alejandro.

Believe me I really do want a good relationship with RD, but please understand that when we see an injustice posted that can be easily corrected, we're approaching the admins/owners only. We have nothing but respect for the majority of the members here but the thread that has now been closed, thankfully, was a tirade of abuse, much of it personal and would have been moderated out in any other site. It is/was much more than the single thread title. As I say, that thread seemed to grow into a haven for those spewing vitriol at us. If it was at pCARS only then it would be fine, but it was against our company and that steps over the line if it goes unmoderated and is quoted elsewhere.

Also I should repeat my motivation for posting personally here. For good or for bad we made the decision early on that if we were to initiate a system such as pCARS/WMD we would engage the community in all shapes and forms that entails. That means that for the most part we can happily say thanks to the vast majority who are balanced and or positive, but it also means we don't ignore those with a more negative skew to their perceptions. When that negativity slips into outright abuse and lies then it would be cowardly of me to ignore it. We only ask for normal moderation, following the posting rules of this forum. The 'banned' thread got clearly out of line.

I've offered 10 free passes to RD members that PM me as an olive branch but I appear to be banging my head off a brick wall with the owners here when I ask for the same moderation afforded to others.

Again Bram, please feel free to post the PM exchange we've had, as you posited as a threat to me. I'll happily defend anything I said or requested.

For much we try to end with this nonsense, it seems you are willing to boost it over and over again Ian, same that happened with the other thread.

We moderated all the posts and removed all the possible personal abuse before you came to this forum. There was also a lot to moderate in some of your major WMD investors posts.

I don't understand why you continuously claim to be a victim here or what you want from us, we just know most of your claims were intended to remove critics to a product, not any kind of abuse, and we won't do that because this is a forum with free speech.

I don't understand why you have so big interest in keep this threads alive, if it wasn't for you and some of your bigger investors, "Banned for no reason" thread would be in page 19 of the forum at this point, and RD would be the peaceful site it is regarding all other simracing games.


---

@Alejandro Riveiro , notice I was never specially negative to PCARS (and many times positive), I was negative towards censoring people's comments without objective reasons.

I would be the happiest man in the world if nobody posts in this thread anymore and let it sink in the forums forever, but I'm forced to come here once and again to defend RD against twisted interpretations of reality.

 

[Ian Bell]

For much we try to end with this nonsense, it seems you are willing to boost it over and over again Ian, same that happened with the other thread.

We moderated all the posts and removed all the possible personal abuse before you came to this forum. There was also a lot to moderate in some of your major WMD investors posts.

I don't understand why you continuously claim to be a victim here or what you want from us, we just know most of your claims were intended to remove critics to a product, not any kind of abuse, and we won't do that because this is a forum with free speech.

I don't understand why you have so big interest in keep this threads alive, if it wasn't for you and some of your bigger investors, "Banned for no reason" thread would be in page 19 of the forum at this point, and RD would be the peaceful site it is regarding all other simracing games.


---

@Alejandro Riveiro , notice I was never specially negative to PCARS (and many times positive), I was negative towards censoring people's comments without objective reasons.

I would be the happiest man in the world if nobody posts in this thread anymore and let it sink in the forums forever.

Nonsense? We've asked for clear lies and vitriol to be moderated. Nothing more. Please post the PM exchange Bram stated he would break his personal beliefs to do. I'm sure the members here would enjoy the read.

The site owners here have a responsibility to set the tone. You're clearly not wanting to improve the situation.

Your accusation that I've kept that thread alive is preposterous. I registered 4 days ago. It's been here for months.

No one else speaks for me.

I haven't claimed to be any victim and I don't think I've presented myself as such, quite the opposite, I'm clearly on the attack here.

What I want from you is simple. Moderate your forum. Follow your own posting rules in the pCARS thread as you do in all of the other threads. You haven't done so as yet.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

What I want from you is simple. Moderate your forum. Follow your own posting rules in the pCARS thread as you do in all of the other threads. You haven't done so as yet.

Are you also telling Facebook and Google Plus to moderate their forums? Really Ian. Moderation nowadays, especially in Xenforo, works based on reported posts just like on Facebook or other modern software.

You can report and submit your side of the story. We will weigh it and decide if it needs to be changed. I don't know what is so hard to understand about that. We have been repeating that since March now and as of today you only keep saying "LIES" but don't back it up.

 

[David Dominguez]

I don't get how can you ask them to change something when, by reading other WMD forum ban messages, the guy who opened the thread "banned for no reason" was totally entitled to think that (no reason given in the ban message).

 

[Ian Bell]

Yes, I've mailed Google of course...

Sorry Bram, you have posting rules that you don't follow in the pCARS threads, It's that simple. I asked you nicely to do so and you refused, for what reason I fail to comprehend. It would have taken you seconds.

I've sent you a word document and backed up everything I've said in my simple request. You refused to moderate.

I do though fully respect your non vitriolic members and there are still some places left in my free offer to those members. Some are now already playing pCARS for free and can happily abuse it to high heaven, just not us as a company, if it's a false accusation.

 

[Kazumi]

But sometimes you have to take stock and accept that the code might simply 'not be up to the job'. Honestly I had many chats with Eero discussing how we could improve it but he felt it was as good as it could be. This is the guy that coded the RBR physics engine singlehandedly remember.

I suppose it took him both hands, but,... it's a different thing to create a whole engine from scratch then to supply some assets. Then you know its quirks (which any current sim is full of) and can tweak and improve it. It probably makes the implementation more difficult as well if the engine isn't modular or completely your (the main programmers') own code.

That's why it surprises me when it's panned by the hardcore.

You're games got panned not the underlying code!

I see why that might be hard to understand... I know 1 or 2 people who joined pCars because of its tire physics (and more because of "best sim ever") so it's crap you guys couldn't tweak it (and the rest of the physics) sufficiently for some yet, or even gave up on that as you make it sound that way until the new assets are finished.

Yes we aimed for 'accessibility' and had to with EA and the Shift games but that wasn't the case with pCARS in teh early days.

Some parts in Shift aren't good, other parts are. I think there's a place for more racing games in between "pure hardcore" and more gamey (to avoid the term "arcade"). I always thought of Shift as a PGR with a bit more sim flavor. Just pants what the marketing tried to make out of it.

I'm optimistic.

Good luck

 

[Ian Bell]

Are you also telling Facebook and Google Plus to moderate their forums? Really Ian. Moderation nowadays, especially in Xenforo, works based on reported posts just like on Facebook or other modern software.

You can report and submit your side of the story. We will weigh it and decide if it needs to be changed. I don't know what is so hard to understand about that. We have been repeating that since March now and as of today you only keep saying "LIES" but don't back it up.

I'm still waiting for you to post that PM exchange BTW.

 

[Megasoum]

I don't get how can you ask them to change something when, by reading other WMD forum ban messages, the guy who opened the thread "banned for no reason" was totally entitled to think that (no reason given in the ban message).

Exactly, the message you get on the WMD forums when you get banned (according to the screenshots posted in the two threads) clearly says "No reason givens" so technically the thread title was true. Now whether the person actually knew or not why he was banned is beyond the point.

 

[Andy_J]

This is the guy that coded the RBR physics engine singlehandedly remember. That's why it surprises me when it's panned by the hardcore. Yes we aimed for 'accessibility' and had to with EA and the Shift games but that wasn't the case with pCARS in teh early days. Our aim there was always to be the most realistic sim possible but the same code got panned, hence the new guy and the new code.

I'm optimistic.

Nice to hear Ian, but seriously, he just couldn't get the same results he had with the RBR engine could he? There is no way on this planet that Pcars physics resemble anything of the greatness that RBR had. I wish it did. Keep on trying though with this new bloke.
By the way, why did Eero leave? Some say it was because he couldn't do any more to improve it. Is that true or just rubbish?

regards
Andy

 

[Ian Bell]

Nice to hear Ian, but seriously, he just couldn't get the same results he had with the RBR engine could he? There is no way on this planet that Pcars physics resemble anything of the greatness that RBR had. I wish it did. Keep on trying though with this new bloke.
By the way, why did Eero leave? Some say it was because he couldn't do any more to improve it. Is that true or just rubbish?

regards
Andy

This seems to be the case given the feedback from the hardcore which we're listening to. I wouldn't be spending money recoding it otherwise.

i won't go into why Eero is no longer with us, that would be unfair. Suffice to say he said it was as good as it could be and the community response said otherwise.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

Ian Bell, Sunday at 7:41 PM

Let's have a chat by phone.

Please PM me your number and I'll give you a buzz.

OK, suit yourself.

Hi Ian,

I don't know wether this is convenient, I have to do some legal consultations first, considering you want to go against us in tribunals.

I can just say I consider it unfair against RD.

Best regards,
Xosé

Hi Xose.

Ok, I understand.

My issue is simply with defamatory posts against our company. I care little for the personal abuse against me or those that hate pCARS, that's their right. But there are a LOT of posts that are clearly libelous that would be moderated away anywhere else.

I'd really appreciate you work with me here. If we can do that, which means moderating the clearly libelous posts, then we can move forward in a positive light.

If you can be more precise on what you find libelous, for sure we will review it and moderate it if appropriate.

In fact that would make our lifes much easier because at this point we don't really understand what it's different from any other game criticism, and that's why we are stuck on this situation.

I've already pointed out that we never ban anyone for no reason. That title has been up for months.

If we are to go through the threads pointing out clear defamatory statements it will take ages, but I'll ask one of my staff to do so now.

The title it's a personal opinon: "rFactor 2 is an arcade"

The document is on the way to our lawyers as we speak.

We've never banned any member for no reason. The person who liked the other post wasn't banned for just that. That's besides the point, none of them are Rob Every AKA Chunder27.

You've just made my case stronger by again accusing me of that which I've proven not to be the case, this time with a witness on a PM. That's called libel.

Cheers!

Ian

That doesn't make rFactor 2 an arcade.

I wait for your staff to send us the parts in conflict, thanks.

I add Bram to this conversation.

Sorry Xose, again, we do not ban people for no reason. That's not an opinion, it's a lie. It is shown to be a lie in the first page of following posts. This guy asked to be removed.

Ok, please include also that in your requests and we will review it.

First of all I don't wish to be in this conversation after first been threatened on the forums.

I am always available for communication Ian. By phone, mail, msn, google plus, skype, facebook and linkedin. Heck you could have had a cup of coffee if you rang at my door for social chat.

But after been threatened to be sued on a public forum without any prior notice Ill propose you something different.

As i posted in the forums. You can report all false claims to us IF you include a) proof or b) an on the record statement that we can quote you on at later stage in case you are not telling the truth.

You have really overstepped the line Ian and you try to kill a friendly community of simracers. that has been nothing but supportive to you, your games and your company until you posted that threat towards us.

Because of 5 registered people I don't even know the other 129.995 are now all part of a community of haters.

I give up guys.

The thread is still there despite me posting proof this guy asked to be removed.

I'll go the legal route.

If you'd have been a bit more passive in your communications Bram I could have let this pass, but there's no moderation of a litany of abuse on your forums towards me and my company. It's been there for months and it's completely unnacceptable.

Hello Haters with a smiley was a joke, you're taking yourself far too seriously if you can't see that despite me clearly stating so on more than one occasion). There is a dangerous ethos among the management here and that's reflected in the forums for our game.

Please advise whom we should approach with the legals?

First, you told me that you were sending me a doccument done by your staff with the things you consider libel, and proofs of it, but you never did.

Considering the latest informations, I don't even think the "ban for no reason" is even wrong, because there is proof of people being banned for liking a post or disagree. You never provided evidence in other direction.

You are also banning WMD members that participated at RD, also without reason.

If you want to go the legal route, it's up to you but you have completely no case. We also have lawyers you know, and good ones by the way, I have a big family

Hello Ian.

Disappointing that you don't keep your word as you clearly said earlier in this conversation that you would submit all the "evidence" first by your staff. Until today we haven't received an official reports, emails or other forms of communication that holds content that we can compare and weigh and make our own judgement as fair as we can.

If you would like to skip this logical first step thats also fine of course. Please make sure that all documents are written bilingual namely English for our International Lawyers and Dutch for myself.

You can send all the dual language documents to my home address which you can obtain via our website host. Please don't forget to include the full names and addresses of yourself and Micas_WMD as those two persons will be the center of our case and defense.

Hear from you soon.

Bram

LOL Ian, you really must think I'm stupid

We have reams of absolutely apauling posts, the like of which I've never seen anywhere else, in a document that frankly would take too long to go through 'proving' each point.

It's fairly difficult for me to 'prove' I'm not a thief, a liar, a con man, etc etc etc. I would have thought the burdon of proof would be on them for you to allow such posts to remain. Instead I'm here trying to get some simple moderation from those running the site, and getting abuse thrown in.

PS, we've never banned anyone because they are a member of your site. That's another preposterous allegation.

Bram, please stop obstructing and trying to make this job harder than it is. Your site is in English, you speak perfect English and I've yet to meet a Dutch person who doesn't.

I'll include what I deem good and fit thank you Bram.

Micas is not associated with me in any way. I've pointed this out clearly on the forum. I don't speak for him and he doesn't speak for us. If you require a link to said posts I'm happy to provide.

Remember, you control the site. You can moderate anything anyone says you feel is out of line and or ban anyone. So I fail to see why I should be sending details of a third party.

This now goes to the lawyers, I won't post again unless I absolutely have to.

Let me just say I'm seriously disappointed guys. The litany of abuse on your site towards us/me has been there for months and has been quoted on other sites by others. It has clearly affected our business yet you allow it to stay.

We evaluated all the posts and removed any trace of personal abuse towards or from you.

But we can't remove judgements based on your personal opinion and the interests of your business when the people writing (and therefore responsible of what they say) tried the product and are narrating a personal experience with it, either positive or negative. We can't do that or our honour will be compromised.

I sincerely hoped you understand this, but sadly that's not the case.

Have a nice day.

When was this done Xose? After how many months is the question?

We have snapshots of earlier versions on the forum with some frankly terrible posts not only unmoderated for months but tacitly supported by some staff here in follow up posts. That probably was the last straw for us.

Positive or negative views of our product is not and has never been the issue. It's the litany of lies and abuse defaming me and my company that was here for many months that is the issue.

Even the closure post by staff actively asks members to discuss the closure and hails teh freedom of speech on the internet.

Really guys, what do you expect to arise from that?

Ian,

As I studied Dutch law myself and a future case will be held in the country where a website or its owner resides, in this case The Netherlands, I request the documents to be in Dutch at first and for the convenience of others in English.

English is not my mother tongue and you would like to do your accusations and defense in your own language as well i presume?

Regards

I've never given personal abuse to people BTW. Nothing beyond a clear lighthearted joke, impersonal with a twinkle in my eye. Please feel free to show me those posts.

Sorry Bram, we'll be sending them in English.

My mother tongue is Gaelic. I'm Irish.

We are not proffessionals, we moderate when we have free time to do it, so therefore there can be a delay.

We also ask our members to report, so it makes it easier for us, and that's why we asked you.



All the personal abuse was removed at the moment we noticed about it, fact.

And yes, we like freedom of speech while defending personal honor, shame on us.

PS Bram, I tried to attach the document here but I can't

If I can have an email address I'll happily send you a snapshot of what we have.

Secondly, I see you were at SimBin. Does this explain the irrationally negative attitude towards us? If so, you should know that SimBin and we are happily working together, Henrick is no longer there and no issues exist between us as of now.

http://nl.linkedin.com/pub/bram-hengeveld/33/2aa/9a1
13:54
Attuale Owner presso RaceDepartment
13:55
i don't remember him.. he was event manager at simbin?
13:55
Event Manager

You've been fairly hostile with me from the off Bram to be fair. I understand there's a bit of Irish banter in some things I do, such as the the Hello haters opening but I'm not a bad guy and am and was justifiably frustrated at the response I got when I broached the subject of moderation with you, from you. I wasn't asking for stifling of free speech, I'm a fervent advocate of

Bram, please pass me your phone number. I will call you. there are a lot of issues that can get sullied in text that we might be able to work out. I'm on holiday at the moment in sardinia so the connection might drop occasionally.

that, I was asking for simple moderation of defamatory statements. I was asking for a false title to be fixed. It has been quoted elsewhere as fact and has done us financial harm.

I'm getting at the fact that I set up SimBin, then left with most of the staff when we couldn't work with Henrik any further. There was some animosity among some SimBin members because of that, mainly as they didn't know the full picture.

SimBin Development Team AB
13:55
March 2008 – November 2008 (9 months)

I understand that Xose. But we are talking months here. Months where others came on and openly complained about the general thrust of the posts on that thread (and others) and nothing happened. Indeed, as I say, the abusive ethos was openly supported by staff on some occasions.

I don't know what you mean with that remark Ian. I have been working for SimBin/Eurosport for the V-WTCC in 2008 with Yoeri Gijsen. Didn't have anything to do with the development team or games really. We just organized the online and onsite part of the competition from out own homes.

If you classify all my action online as negative yes than i am as negative towards you as i am towards simbin, iracing, reiza studios, kunos simulazioni, polyphony, codemasters, turn 10 and other game developers that we have been actively supporting for the last seven years in our free time.

We never received reports from that thread from yourself, and when we did, like when you recently joined the forum, we reviewed all of it again to check for things that escaped our attention before.

But we can't remove "the game is bad" comments from people that tried it, because we have not objective reasons to do that. We are also entitled to a personal opinon as well, we are simracers, it's our hobby, and we participate in debates. We do volunteer work a lot of hours for RD, why shouldn't we also enjoy it participate in it?

http://www.racedepartment.com/2012/...rience-interview-with-diego-sartori/#comments

Look at my comments, that is more negative than everything I could say about PCARS, considering I always talked about the current state and had hopes of improvement.

I've seen the videos and the interview, and I made my opinion about it, why shouldn't I write it? I can't say what I think about an iPhone, a vacuum cleaner, a car?

Please provide me an email and I'll forward our document. It's a lot worse than 'the game is bad'. For the 5th time guys, this is nothing we care about, there will always be those that don't like what we do.

You yourself have been fairly balanced BTW Xose. The main issue is with the postings from Bram.

LOL great way of turning things around. We have never ever spoken before apart from an email I sent you in 2009 to ask for one free copy of NFS Shift to giveaway to the community for free

The next moment you threaten to sue me and the website and even then I don't see any hostility towards yourself to be completely honest.

info@racedepartment.com

I don't know Ian, I think I made critics to the sim and some complements as well, but I see the same for Bram, in fact his first post in thread:



Then the discussion gets more complicated, but I think Bram was confident about your fairness by default.

I'm referring to Bram's tone towards me on the forum from the off. Taking offence at a clear joke, which i stated was a clear joke, set the tone for the member responses that followed. There are many other examples.

I read that post from Bram yes, I appreciated it. But what followed from members was preposterous and was allowed to stay.

Email of the first batch of abuse is on the way guys.


My initial kind request:

PS RD site owners. The title of this thread is defamatory and false. Looking around your site, there appears to be zero moderation of a litany of lies and libleous statements about our company and our product.

While it was fun for a while it's been going on a little too long. I'll ask nicely that you moderate the more legally dangerous statements here.
Cheers,

Ian


Your response:

So after six years (or seven if I include GTR) of full support for your titles (GTR2, GT Legends, Shift 1 and Shift 2 Unleashed) with forums, daily club races and high quality leagues this is the way you make your first post to say hello to thesimracing community you love so much?​

​

Because five to ten people in this thread obviously don't like pCARS as a game we are now all of a sudden "haters"? (adding a smiley won't make it less offensive).​

​

I have bought all games mentioned above and also will include pCARS once it is finished. If that makes me a hater then so be it.​

Surely you can see as site owner you set a tone? It led directly to a tirade from Farrel for example. I was posting in a specific thread to specific people who clearly hate pCARs, thus they are in fact, haters. I said it lightheartedly and with a smiley and stated that it was a joke multiple times. You had no reason to generalise it to the whole of the site or the community.

Bram Hengeveld - Admin

But wasn't that perfectly clear from the beginning? Its about the blingbling and not about the physics. The whole introduction of pCARS was a repetition of SHIFT that was promised to be the ultimate sim that caters to both simmers and arcade gamers as well.

This doesn't set a great tone either Bram. In fact it openly endorses the negative ethos.

It's also wrong.

Your initial request came with "Hello Haters". If you wish to quote at least quote correctly Ian.

Hello Haters is at least where I live highly offensive. Especially seeing all the time and efforts we have put into supporting your previous titles. It's a total lack of respect in whatever way you look at it.

You first offend us, our staff and the community and don't even apologize for it. Then you threaten to sue and let Micas openly and via private messages (that were reported) do it all over again in your name to people it doesn't even concern.

Ian this thread was a five haters vs ten to fifteen fanboys discussions were both sides were stating their opinions. You yourself obviously found it very amuzing as you state that first in this private post, while we from the beginning were openly against the tone of the debate but of course accepted the discussions as it are peoples opinions.

We as staff and me especially have posted multiple times to behave. Until this weekend the thread was viewed exactly 38,000 times (most referrals coming from WMD btw) and it has now taken of to 60,000 and it will be 100,000 plus in no time because you threaten as a CEO from a million dollar company to sue your own community. You could have expected that this storm was going to happen as you have dealt with this before. (we haven't btw).

Also we have offered from the beginning when "@emailaddressremoved.com" mailed us to mediate as you could have reported all the libel since the start from the thread but you let it go as it was "amuzing" and now after months you are going the legal road and you keep ignoring our very reasonable request to report and submit your truth so we can make a reasonable judgement what is false and what isn't. Without your side of the story it is impossible to determine who is wrong and who is right. Just repeatedly saying that all are "lies" is not sufficient of course.

Now the thread is locked after you claimed in this post that you are going to continue with legal actions, which we regret but respect. Hence I locked the thread so people don't change the "evidence" and as you declined multiple times to accept our offer no moderation will be done anymore until a court case comes and a judge will decide which parts are libelous and which aren't or you accept our reasonable offer and come forward with the other side of the story.

This is also the last I will say about this as this private messaging is just a repetition of everything I have also posted before.

Hello haters with a smiley is highly offensive?

It's the last I'll say also then as it's clear there's an agenda here.

Good luck.

PS, I clearly asked for the thread title to be amended as it's patently false. You have refused.

I see you've stated that you might post up these PM's on the forum Bram. Please do so. I stand behind everything I've said in here and firmly support freedom of information.

I'll happily defend anything on your forums in full view and with complete transparency.

Why you delivered it as a threat is beyond me though. I'm not saying anything here I wouldn't say publicly. So please feel free.

Ian Bell, Today at 8:52 PM

 

[Alejandro Riveiro]

@Bram Hengeveld, @Ian Bell, you two definitely need chill out and take this into a private discussion unless you're out to entertain visitors of this forum. If that's your intention, then please go on, but know that you're making a disservice to both of you, to RD and to SMS.

It's not going to do any of you any good to keep this going as it is, honestly.

 

[Ian Bell]

@Bram Hengeveld, @Ian Bell, you two definitely need chill out and take this into a private discussion unless you're out to entertain visitors of this forum. If that's your intention, then please go on, but know that you're making a disservice to both of you, to RD and to SMS.

It's not going to do any of you any good to keep this going as it is, honestly.

You seem to be a reasonable chap Alejandro. Now everyone can read the goings on behind the scenes.

Kudos for coming through with your 'threat' Bram, I have to respect that, it's probably a first for a forum owner.

As I say, I've tried to seek conciliation to no avail, that's clear in the PM's.

 

[Xosé Estrada]

You seem to be a reasonable chap Alejandro. Now everyone can read the goings on behind the scenes.

Kudos for coming through with your 'threat' Bram, I have to respect that, it's probably a first for a forum owner.

As I say, I've tried to seek conciliation to no avail, that's clear in the PM's.

Conciliation means legal threats and censoring imposition.

I have to write down that for the future.

This thread went full retard if you ask me, its ridiculous.

 

[Klazerman]

Ouch, Xosé and Bram is really looking bad reading the correspondance. Talk about beeing unwilling to hear what Ian is trying to say.

 

[Alejandro Riveiro]

You seem to be a reasonable chap Alejandro. Now everyone can read the goings on behind the scenes.

It doesn't mean it's the right thing. But I'll bite. There're mistakes on the attitude on those PMs from both sides pretty much from the beginning.

Way too eager to threaten when things don't go in one way in one hand; way too stubborn to change something that would have never been a big deal in the first place in the other hand.

There was no need to mention lawyers or threats. In the other hand, would seriously RD stand up in arms rioting because a thread was deleted?

Seriously, what's the point of all this? Where are you trying to get to? Both of you.

 

[Xosé Estrada]

Ouch, Xosé and Bram is really looking bad reading the correspondance. Talk about beeing unwilling to hear what Ian is trying to say.

Yes, we just could say "we will delete everything you want and disrespect our members"

If you ask me to kill a person after you threatened me on public, if I don't do it, is not that I don't want to listen, is that I find it unnaceptable.

I don't have any hard feelings with Ian, but he asks me to do something immoral, and I refuse to do it.

 

[Bram Hengeveld]

Sorry Bram, you have posting rules that you don't follow in the pCARS threads, It's that simple. I asked you nicely to do so and you refused, for what reason I fail to comprehend..

Gimme a break. Hello haters and threaten with legal action is a your way to ask things nicely?

To me that is called intimidation and has nothing but i mean absolutely nothing to do with asking something nicely. Let alone an attempt to build up a good relation.

 

[Ian Bell]

Gimme a break. Hello haters and threaten with legal action is a your way to ask things nicely?

To me that is called intimidation and has nothing but i mean absolutely nothing to do with asking something nicely. Let alone an attempt to build up a good relation.

You still seem to be trying to burn bridges Bram. The PM's are there for all to see now. I've been asking for conciliation and simple moderation and been refused. I've been asking for a number to call to chat about this civilly and been refused.

Honestly, if my clearly professed opening joke still annoys you then I can only assume you want to be annoyed. As I have told you multiple times, I WAS engaging the haters, some of whom admit they are in the very thread.

 

[Xosé Estrada]

In the other hand, would seriously RD stand up in arms rioting because a thread was deleted?

I would resign as admin and left the community before deleting a thread (censoring) by request of a big company without an objective reason to do it.

Yes, its a big deal for me because I live by some principles that maybe aren't important in general, but are important to me.