PC1 Latest Build testing.

[Andy_J]

As you all know, Ian gave me a free pass to test the latest builds and that's what I have been doing for the last week. I will report here as and when I see fit to tell all about my findings.

But I will say that the latest build (296) is quite good. Now lets make some sense of my statement. I used a Lotus 98T in helmet cam using my antique MOMO red wheel and I can honestly report it is coming along much better than I anticipated. The actual feel and immersion is damn fine at this point. The handling is strange at first compared to say...RF2 and FVA, but it grows on you within minutes. At this point in time, this actual car feels good. I like it and I love the Milan circuit. The damage model has come on leaps and bounds.

I am doing some more testing all of next week using a G27 and I will also test some of the other cars that don't interest me as much (I am a F1 nut) and see how the feel in comparison to Shift 2, because that is what I was initially comparing PCars to.

I would like the replay function to have a directors mode though. Something that jumps from action to action and from car to car.

Aside from that, the replay's do crash my PC quite often but I understand that is being looked at.

Watch this space.

 

[Birddogg66]

As was mentioned in the video that Project CARS has more forgiving Curbs is because Ben Collins verbalized that the curbs in other sim titles were too unforgiving and that the drivers "Smash Curbs in Real Life" his own words. You should not automatically spin out just by touching a curb. However the curbs in PCARS can upset the car enough to cause you to spin out. As it is as proper line oriented as any other title

 

[Martin Larsen]

For people that have this game how is the damage system? I have just watchd some Formula A videos where they test it. And it looks terrible, even worse then codemasters F1 damage system...

But I do not have the game and I know the game is not done yet. So just wonder whar people that have the game think about it and if they know if the Dev's have said anything about it for the future...

 

[Birddogg66]

For people that have this game how is the damage system? I have just watchd some Formula A videos where they test it. And it looks terrible, even worse then codemasters F1 damage system...

But I do not have the game and I know the game is not done yet. So just wonder whar people that have the game think about it and if they know if the Dev's have said anything about it for the future...

Well we know there is pretty good visual damage and we have mechanical failures I have not done much testing of the physical damage system since I have been a hot lapper mainly as I want the title to seem pretty fresh to me upon release so I have also limited the number of locations I have frequented as well.
However when I crash I usually restart the session which I would suggest that I would be doing so because of physical damage.

 

[Arne Dopudja]

The fact that it is more forgiving doesn't mean that it is less realistic.

This. For me, LFS has better , more believable, more realistic-like physics than R07, yet still drifiting a car in LFS is quite easy but in R07 it's really retarded and difficult.

 

[bmanic]

I guess this is to some extent what Dinca was talking about. It's a small comparison and it only covers one car on only four circuits, but in the end pCars is more forgiving, which for many "ruins" (with some more missing details) the sim feeling. And in the same time, this (and some added details) will attract many, that will be using it for pleasure and enjoymnet, which is why games are being made in the first place.

Well that's the community's problem, right? If some "hardcore" nutters want to play a less realistic simulator it's their choice but calling the LESS realistic a sim and the MORE realistic arcade is a bit weird, no?

The simple fact is this:

Just 5 years ago it was largely accepted by a very vocal group of people that iRacing is the most realistic thing ever and everybody in PC world was laughing at Gran Turismo and Forza. Yet the actual grip levels were already back then much more realistic in Gran Turismo and Forza. Ironically iRacing has changed a lot and now the cars have much more grip and are way more forgiving. Especially after netKar pro started showing how grip should be done.. then came rF2 and the high-end mods for rFactor. All had a lot more grip on offer, or at least a lot more progressive and easier to handle cars that didn't spin out from the tiniest of mistakes. Then along comes Assetto Corsa with yet more grip (some of the cars may actually have too much grip now but who knows.. the McLaren P1 on Trofeo tires is just insanely grippy) and Project CARS, the latter being by far the most forgiving of any of the recent simulators (though in my own "gut feeling opinion" it too has too progressive tires for most cars and is a bit too grippy which can be confirmed by telemetry from the game.. not much but enough to be measured).

So the general trend has lately gone towards more grip. Interestingly it seems that the more complex the tire model and the more the developers understand about the black art of tires, the more the simulators get progressive grip.

This correlates nicely with all the critique iRacing got in the early days from real life drivers. Some of the GT drivers being particularly vicious with their comments.. like ".. it's basically good only for learning the track and where you will be hitting bumps. The physics are ****" (I'm making this comment up but these kind of words were not uncommon at all on the old forums). Heck, even Henrik Roos kept insisting that GT cars have much more grip and demanded it for GTR2. According to him GTR 1 had way too little grip and was all weird.. even GTR2 apparently didn't have enough grip. Rene Rast keeps saying this over and over again when people ask him if he has played AC or iRacing, basically stating that he has but doesn't like them because they don't have enough grip.

It's a bit sad but oh so very human that us mere mortals, most of us who have absolutely no experience at all with high-end racing cars, are the ones who think they should be sliding all over the place and be practically impossible to control.. yet it doesn't take much understanding to see why this would be idiotic in the real world, especially in longer races like 12 hours of Sebring or 24 of LeMans. Grip is everything and it's what hundreds of thousands of man hours is being spent on achieving.

Having said that, I think pCars has probably gone a bit too far with some of the cars, at least in how progressive the grip is (the actual grip amount is not always that high but the progressiveness and virtual impossibility of having tank slappers is a bit disheartening.. depends on the car though. Some can be really vicious and snappy).

 

[unknwn]

Then along comes Assetto Corsa with yet more grip (some of the cars may actually have too much grip now but who knows.. the McLaren P1 on Trofeo tires is just insanely grippy) and Project CARS, the latter being by far the most forgiving of any of the recent simulators (though in my own "gut feeling opinion" it too has too progressive tires for most cars and is a bit too grippy which can be confirmed by telemetry from the game.. not much but enough to be measured).

P1 Trofeos in AC are actual slicks and not modeled after the real life Trofeo R. These slicks have much better grip than Trofeo R and are closer to GT3 slick tyres in performance. Do you take that into account? If yes what telemetry are you comparing road or slicks? Road tyres are closer to real life PZero Corsa in performance. With those P1 handles similar to what I expected and isn't very hard to oversteer (but still very controllable). With slicks it's actually very hard to oversteer with throttle, while it's much easier to slide by flicking the wheel or using a little brake while in cornering.

 

[bmanic]

Ah I thought they were modeled on the P Zero Trofeo that is usually put on these cars for track days (the ones that Chris Harris so awesomely compared to the ordinary P Zero tire).

EDIT: Chris Harris video here:

Why do Kunos call them Trofeo then? Or are there multiple types of tires all branded Trofeo? I'm really a noob when it comes to tire brands.. so anybody who has time to explain this in detail gets a massive like from me!

Also, about the drifting on slicks.. I agree with you 100%. Guess what has been one of the main criticism Project CARS has gotten for more than 2 years now? It's this: "What bullshit is this!! What is this simcade!?? I can't even light up the rears in this GT3 car!" .. which always got the response "dude, you know that it is virtually impossible to light up the rears of a GT3 car in real life unless you completely dump the clutch from high revs or force it to slide with the steering wheel!".

It's especially funny as AC fanboys have been some of the most vocal to critique pCars about this.. when in fact AC seems to have more grip as default, a lot more.

Personally I think that the "optimum grip" track setting is perhaps a bit overdone. I'd like it if it was removed. Would make for more interesting hotlapping and timing comparisons. Perhaps it is possible for a real race track to be so grippy.. who knows. I've never done any real racing with high-end vehicles. Only basic drifting and hooliganism in parking lots and in empty cities during night.

Cheers!

 

[unknwn]

Default setup (optimum track, slicks on hypercars and semislicks on others) provides perfect conditions grip. But there is no problem with that as long as you can customize it. Like devs said default setups with lots of grip will provide more "fun" for newcomers and actual hardcore simmers will research and customize the conditions for realism. Otherwise how can they call themselves "hardcore"?.. Newbies having fun - more income for devs. There is no need to remove "optimum", don't like it? Don't use it

 

[bmanic]

I don't buy it.. the "fun" setup + optimum grip results in ridiculously fast times. It shouldn't be that way around. In Project CARS we also have "fun/easy" setups for quite a few of the cars but these are always a lot slower than the realistic/fast setups. So if the "fun" setup is already way too fast then the "hardcore" setup will be even faster.

I just think they should remove the optimum track grip setting and go for "green track" as default.

 

[SnappyDEe]

The point is to let people play the game the way they like it. Not just the "hardcore" way. Why don't people get that. It's good to be able to allow the player to ease there way in if they have to or jump right in full whack. That's all. Simple.

 

[unknwn]

I don't buy it.. the "fun" setup + optimum grip results in ridiculously fast times. It shouldn't be that way around. In Project CARS we also have "fun/easy" setups for quite a few of the cars but these are always a lot slower than the realistic/fast setups. So if the "fun" setup is already way too fast then the "hardcore" setup will be even faster.

I just think they should remove the optimum track grip setting and go for "green track" as default.

It isnt that way.
When saying setups I meant only track condition and the tyres nothing else. The setups for transmission, suspension and other stuff are generic (same setup for all tracks), meaning newbies still will be relatively slow. Aliens and drivers who understand setups still will be much faster on the same optimum track.
Do you understand that Green condition after few laps and many drivers quickly improves and becomes "optimum"? The ratio how fast track improves is adjustable in server setup.
Removing optimum as a starting option won't do any good except frustrate sim racing newcomers.
Think of optimum as perfect condition asfalt and lots of rubber laid down on the track. Although this is not perfect way as rubber should be only on the racing line not the whole track.

 

[traind]

Been away from pcars for quite awhile. Diving back in today I found several cars that were feeling "somewhat to very" wonky before are now feeling much better. I include the McLaren F1 and P1 in this mix. Both are important cars for fans of incredible street cars and both have improved significantly over the last few months. Both seem ready to go. Maybe not perfect, but they feel good enough for prime time. The extra time SMS is taking with pCars is paying off.

On a negative note, the FA still feels pretty wooden. It isn't doing anything terrible it just doesn't feel very alive.

 

[SternLX]

On a negative note, the FA still feels pretty wooden. It isn't doing anything terrible it just doesn't feel very alive.

What exactly do you mean 'Alive'? A Formula 1 based car isn't supported to move around underneath you. It's all about being super grippy like it's on rails, and arrow straight.
This may interest you:
http://forum.wmdportal.com/showthread.php?11081-Nic-s-Thread&p=832474&viewfull=1#post832474

 

[traind]

What exactly do you mean 'Alive'? A Formula 1 based car isn't supported to move around underneath you. It's all about being super grippy like it's on rails, and arrow straight.
This may interest you:
http://forum.wmdportal.com/showthread.php?11081-Nic-s-Thread&p=832474&viewfull=1#post832474

By wooden, I mean it feels like there is no suspension. I know f1 cars are stiff but the FA feels like there is no give-- no chassis flex or yaw-- at all. Other sims have more "feel" in formula cars... in fact all other sims have more suspension movement in their F1 cars then the FA. Reference the thread you linked.... I do think the FA is as good as it has been... just not as good as it could be or as good as other sims.

 

[SternLX]

Ahhh, ok. I hadn't really thought about it's stiffness. Could always try an increased ride height and lowered spring rate.

 

[Andy_J]

The FFB is still woeful though. In my subjective opinion.

As standard that is, with no player tweaks. No doubt some inivestor will disagree despite extensive testing.

 

[Birddogg66]

The FFB is still woeful though. In my subjective opinion.

As standard that is, with no player tweaks. No doubt some inivestor will disagree despite extensive testing.

Well you did say subjective opinion so disagreements should be fully welcomed extensive testing or not as that is your experiences and not someone elses. I hear it all the time with people on both sides of the coin when comparing the FFB in pCARS to AC. To me both are very acceptable examples of FFB and it really comes down to personal preference. However if I were to give a verbal award to any of them I would give one to Ivory Tower one for the level of quality of the FFB offered in the PC version of The Crew with regards to how it compares to other titles that are not focused on being serious sims. While there still is a bug for FFB in The Crew what they have accomplished displays a commitment to strive for excellence even for a casual level of racing game. They Blew EA out of the water! Wait let me rephrase that EA didn't even bring a boat.

 

[bmanic]

The FFB is still woeful though. In my subjective opinion.

As standard that is, with no player tweaks. No doubt some inivestor will disagree despite extensive testing.

Because more than 50% of the FFB wheel presets in the game are NOT optimal it is a high chance that you are not experiencing the FFB as it should be. This is especially so if you happen to have a thrustmaster wheel. All but one of those presets are still setup "wrongly".

I'm saying this because 9 people out of 10 who think they understand how to setup the FFB in pCars or think they know how it works actually don't have any clue at all. It's one of those things that most don't seem to grok. Probably because to truly have some kind of vague understanding of the settings you'd have to read the PDF manual that AJ provided with the latest FFB release about a year ago. It also doesn't help that some of the parameters names have been changed while they still do the exact same thing. This is one area I hope SMS polishes the game enough so that it all makes more sense and that the in-game descriptions actually have any merit. Right now the descriptions and many of the settings are still completely useless.

So quick to-do list for you:

1) Make absolutely sure you have FFB Strength, in the control preferences, of your wheel preset set to 100.

2) Make absolutely sure FFB damping, in the same menu, right below the FFB Strength, is set to zero.

3) Then if your wheel is too strong or too light, control the amount of FFB you'd want from the actual driver of your wheel. If it's a fanatec wheel, control it from the wheel.. if it's logitech or thrustmaster, control it from their own settings. For best linearity on most T500/Tx/T300 based wheels you set it to around 70%, perhaps even 75%. For logitech wheels it differs a bit.. my DFGT measured it's most linear at 92% strength and a friends G27 at 98%.

For instance thrustmaster wheels default to 75 strength and 25 damping which is completely and utterly idiotic. You lose a quarter of your wheels dynamic range and get unnecessary filtering/damping on the wheel.

Fanatec CSW v2 is even worse.. it's FFB Strength is set to 50 (!!!) meaning you lose half of it's incredible dynamic range right there. It just doesn't make any sense. I hope they fix this (I've written a very thorough post about this on the forum and I will continue re-posting it until they fix it!!).

Until you have made absolutely sure you are really truly exploring the FFB potential of the title, I feel like you don't really "earn the right" to form an opinion yet. I mean, you of course have a right to have an opinion and can critique it all you want but if you have not explored the settings your opinion doesn't carry much value to other people (which may be irrelevant for you and that is perfectly acceptable).

Cheers!

 

[Andy_J]

Until you have made absolutely sure you are really truly exploring the FFB potential of the title, I feel like you don't really "earn the right" to form an opinion yet. I mean, you of course have a right to have an opinion and can critique it all you want but if you have not explored the settings your opinion doesn't carry much value to other people (which may be irrelevant for you and that is perfectly acceptable).

Cheers!

Well I'm not particularly bothered wether I meet your criteria mate and I don't particularly value your possibly biased Pcars fanboy (your often used phrase to describe others) opinion either. I test the FFB out of the box like I do with GSCE, Race 07, GTR2, RRE and AC and Pcars is woefully bad in comparison at this present time
.
And you are plain wrong about the best settings in the drivers for the Thrustmaster T500RS. By default its 60% and that is what I use on all my sims.

The FFB is really bad, in fact it's the worst I have experienced but hopefully it will all come good by the next delayed release.

Oh and by the way Mr Manic, thanks for the tips, I am sure they will be useful for someone here.

 

[Andrej Svajger]

Andy, please try bmanic's tips, his posts made pCars acceptable to me, when i came back from 6 months pause. I was also deeply dissappointed with how i didn't feel the wheel and then read his posts and Timo's thread "FFB tuning guide (wip)" and now i really enjoy driving. Try it out with our beloved BMW M3 E30 Group A, with whom we had so much fun learning it with Bram.