Have Your Say: Acceptable Risk or Dangerous Liability? The Isle of Man TT

[MMMiguel]

I voted "no" because nobody is forced to attend, neither as rider nor as spectator.
However, I find the whole culture that surrounds these idiot adrenaline junkies praising them as heroes completely ridiculous. Yeah, you can do whatever the hell you want, but there are a hell lot more praiseworthy reasons to risk your life than dying in a motorcycle accident. Like being a war photographer or rescuing others when there's a flood or other kinds of catastrophic circumstances. Racers are all practically selfish idiots that live on the edge for their own adrenaline level alone and don't deserve the goddamn heroism pedestal they're constantly thrown on. I love racing because it is egotistical nihilism, from Schuhmacher to Senna to Roehrl and everyone EVER drawn to a race track. Self destructive idiot antiheroes on the edge is what I'm drawn to, not heroes. But please let's stop pretending they are heroes. That's disrespectful towards the true heroes.

 

[Akra]

I voted "no" because nobody is forced to attend, neither as rider nor as spectator.
However, I find the whole culture that surrounds these idiot adrenaline junkies praising them as heroes completely ridiculous. Yeah, you can do whatever the hell you want, but there are a hell lot more praiseworthy reasons to risk your life than dying in a motorcycle accident. Like being a war photographer or rescuing others when there's a flood or other kinds of catastrophic circumstances. Racers are all practically selfish idiots that live on the edge for their own adrenaline level alone and don't deserve the goddamn heroism pedestal they're constantly thrown on. I love racing because it is egotistical nihilism, from Schuhmacher to Senna to Roehrl and everyone EVER drawn to a race track. Self destructive idiot antiheroes on the edge is what I'm drawn to, not heroes. But please let's stop pretending they are heroes. That's disrespectful towards the true heroes.

Sporting heros and service heros are not the same thing and no not invalidate each others 'status' as heros. There is more than 1 definition of the word hero.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/hero?s=t

1. a person noted for courageous acts or nobility of character:
He became a local hero when he saved the drowning child.

This is the hero you are referring to, and the most literally term.

2. a person who, in the opinion of others, has special achievements,abilities, or personal qualities and is regarded as a role model or ideal:
My older sister is my hero. Entrepreneurs are our modern heroes.

This is the term used for racing drivers, as well as other sporting heros. Often referred to as childhood heros.

3. the principal male character in a story, play, film, etc.

Any main character can be a hero, even if the story is not an action film and nobodies life is saved.

Riders and drivers are heros, just not the type you're referring to.

 

[MMMiguel]

Sporting heros and service heros are not the same thing and no not invalidate each others 'status' as heros. There is more than 1 definition of the word hero.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/hero?s=t

1. a person noted for courageous acts or nobility of character:
He became a local hero when he saved the drowning child.

This is the hero you are referring to, and the most literally term.

2. a person who, in the opinion of others, has special achievements,abilities, or personal qualities and is regarded as a role model or ideal:
My older sister is my hero. Entrepreneurs are our modern heroes.

This is the term used for racing drivers, as well as other sporting heros. Often referred to as childhood heros.

3. the principal male character in a story, play, film, etc.

Any main character can be a hero, even if the story is not an action film and nobodies life is saved.

Riders and drivers are heros, just not the type you're referring to.

I agree that number 2 applies to racers. They are heroes in THAT sense because they race well. But they are not heroes BECAUSE they died doing it!

 

[MMMiguel]

They are also not heroes for the reason that "they risk their life doing what they love".
Let me phrase it in a really edgy way and please forgive me if I hurt anyone, I'm just doing it for symbolic purposes:

Senna died in the same way a heroin junky dies: while doing what he loved.

 

[Damage Inc]

When the odds are so high of death i think its wrong, im not doubting skill or bravery but too many are driving beyond the limit of both. Some people don't have a strong sense of danger, some believe there immortal, some believe they are incredibly skilled, some are wrong. They are the ones that need protection... From themselves. For the sake of there loved ones. Sport shouldn't lead to death.

So then all Horse riding sports, all extreme sports, boxing, ice hockey, american football, rugby etc etc should all be banned too then...ANY sporting event that leads or could lead to a death. People die running too so Marathons banned, football because I've read of young kids dropping dead doing that. Any sport left?


@ andy and Wombat.....I havn't ridden since 2003 I am SO jealous of your rides!!

 

[grahamw]

Having been to the TT myself more than 30 years ago I have to say that there are two schools of thought quite a lot of incidents are actually not the racers or fatal although they are indeed incidents which possibly could have been avoided with greater restrictions or controls.

I don't even know if the public are allowed to use the roads any more but I expect even if they were stopped the most determined would find a way.

It is sad that 255 people and more have died over the past 106 years but without exception they died doing something they loved. No one forced or even cajolled them in to taking part it was their choice and they knew the risk and still chose to race.

Since the turn of the century there have been 58 deaths of competitors most of which were on highly powered bikes doing the thing they love whilst none would choose to go and get killed the fact they know they take that risk must always be somewhere in their minds.

Some might say the level of risk compared to the power of modern motorcycles is the key factor for the increase in fatal accidents and there may be a lot of merit to that argument.

I don't think the right of anyone to take part can be questioned any more than any other sport. However could more be done to improve safety yes of course but then again no matter how much is done the sport of road racing on hostile roads often in dangerous conditions is not going to be safe.

As I said I once had the opportunity to ride a section of the Snaefell Mountain Course years ago at reasonable speed on a fast motorcycle was it exhilarating yes (you bet your life it was) would I do it again probably not.

But the day you stop everything people want to do on the grounds of safety is the day the world stops turning.

 

[Andy_J]

I don't even know if the public are allowed to use the roads any more but I expect even if they were stopped the most determined would find a way.
Yes the road is a public road. You can ride it as much as you like. After race or practice that is.

As I said I once had the opportunity to ride a section of the Snaefell Mountain Course years ago at reasonable speed on a fast motorcycle was it exhilarating yes (you bet your life it was) would I do it again probably not.

Mad Sunday used to be the day the riding public could go from Ramsey Hairpin to the Creg Na Ba pub with no speed limits and one way traffic over the mountain. It was deemed to mad to do that on just one day of the TT 2 week period. So they changed it to allow us all to do the same every day of the two week period of the TT. Fantastic. But you need your wits about you though. It's crazy. But brilliant. I managed to do it 3 times this year, would have done more but crashes cause it to be closed quite often.

But the day you stop everything people want to do on the grounds of safety is the day the world stops turning.

I can't wait to ride there again next year. (I have been going on and off since 1984) Love the atmosphere and the action and the riding. Yes it's dangerous, but life is short and you only live once.

 

[TzZyO]

I voted "no" because nobody is forced to attend, neither as rider nor as spectator.
However, I find the whole culture that surrounds these idiot adrenaline junkies praising them as heroes completely ridiculous. Yeah, you can do whatever the hell you want, but there are a hell lot more praiseworthy reasons to risk your life than dying in a motorcycle accident. Like being a war photographer or rescuing others when there's a flood or other kinds of catastrophic circumstances. Racers are all practically selfish idiots that live on the edge for their own adrenaline level alone and don't deserve the goddamn heroism pedestal they're constantly thrown on. I love racing because it is egotistical nihilism, from Schuhmacher to Senna to Roehrl and everyone EVER drawn to a race track. Self destructive idiot antiheroes on the edge is what I'm drawn to, not heroes. But please let's stop pretending they are heroes. That's disrespectful towards the true heroes.

I have to admit I agree with you. However, being a racer isn't exactly the same thing as being a heroin addict. A drug abuser is a highly probable threat to others and such an addiction leads to the health condition deterioration. A racer's health will most likely only improve during the activity, however. Of course, if the said racer won't end up in an accident, but who exactly is safe from that?

 

[MMMiguel]

I have to admit I agree with you. However, being a racer isn't exactly the same thing as being a heroin addict. A drug abuser is a highly probable threat to others and such an addiction leads to the health condition deterioration. A racer's health will most likely only improve during the activity, however. Of course, if the said racer won't end up in an accident, but who exactly is safe from that?

I only used that (admittedly a bit hyperbolic) comparison because I wanted to emphasize the fact that both live on the edge for personal pleasure and doing what they love (or crave?) becomes dangerous. Yet the drivers are somehow respected for that reason (not only for that reason, but it's a big part of race driving culture), while the drug addicts are hated for the same reason. Of course there are differences in health and danger to society.
But not every drug addict is a danger to society. There are some rich folks who shoot themselves to death with their drugs, who never hurt anyone but themselves and they are surely not regarded heroes because they "died doing what they love" and "lived on the edge".

 

[Vapir]

Yes the number of deaths make me uncomfortable in this day and age, however I firmly believe the level of risk someone is willing to take is their decision and theirs alone.

This.

 

[mrbungle83]

More people probably die from

It's no different than our daily commutes. Think about it, we're among hundreds, if not thousands of other people on the roadways. We can't control what they do. Most I see on the roadways are on their phones. This is far more dangerous than the Isle of Man.

So then all Horse riding sports, all extreme sports, boxing, ice hockey, american football, rugby etc etc should all be banned too then...ANY sporting event that leads or could lead to a death. People die running too so Marathons banned, football because I've read of young kids dropping dead doing that. Any sport left?


@ andy and Wombat.....I havn't ridden since 2003 I am SO jealous of your rides!!

How do you not understand how dangerous it is? Have you not seen the death toll? Just because you love it it has blinkered your views. Football just as dangerous?!? Hundreds of thousands partake in football and 0.0000005% die the TT would be thousands of times more dangerous. But you cant see it.

 

[TzZyO]

I only used that (admittedly a bit hyperbolic) comparison because I wanted to emphasize the fact that both live on the edge for personal pleasure and doing what they love (or crave?) becomes dangerous. Yet the drivers are somehow respected for that reason (not only for that reason, but it's a big part of race driving culture), while the drug addicts are hated for the same reason. Of course there are differences in health and danger to society.
But not every drug addict is a danger to society. There are some rich folks who shoot themselves to death with their drugs, who never hurt anyone but themselves and they are surely not regarded heroes because they "died doing what they love" and "lived on the edge".

There is also the difference in the learning effort. Knowing how to ride or drive is a useful skill. And if you know how to do that properly, you deserve at least some respect, unlike if you'd know how to get high "properly".
The biggest reason for respect here is the acquired skill level, not exactly the "doing for the fun of it" part. And if you are a TT rider, you have to work really hard to achieve the skill. Not to mention that in case you do possess the skill, you have a much higher chance to survive on public roads while not hurting anybody else.

I agree that not every substances addict is a threat for the society. And enough bike riders probably are...
But you can't trust a single one of the addicts they won't try to attempt a crime at some point. And as far as the TT course goes, you can be sure a TT rider won't kill you accidentally if you carefully choose the spot to watch the race from.

 

[gamer19]

You started nice? That's why you received sad and angry smileys?

Oh please... don't let me even started. So, sad and angry smiley are some measure of are my point valid or not ? Really ?
Please, please take a look at my profile (I can't enter yours, cuz it's hidden for my kind, so much about your objectivity) and tell me how many sad or angry faces I have been give to others ? Yes, that's it, none. And I never will. Yet you and ones like you keep give them to me, like it was something I really care and like it's something that will change my standing point. And I'm immature.

It's ok to crash if it's Indy 500, while crashing on a bike going all out is not quite your level of worthiness?

So you must bee Harry Dunne huh. Nice to finally meet you too.
If a crash in Indy500 with that ultra modern bumpers all that latest technology cars they got there and smacking a telephone pole on prestigious Isle of Man is really comparable... then I got nothing more to say to you. Go back in school only perhaps.

Also, I would recommend not to get into arguments with adults. Once you are old enough, remembering what you said so far will make you cringe hard.

It's useless. They never listen. Kids are the worst thing that happened to the web since its inception.

I probably can be your father. Actually... that's not that unlikely... I had some pretty wild parties in my youth days and blurry, almost zero, recollection on them.

Do you have any idea how many dangerous sports there are in the world? Would you like to ban all of them too?

To you and everyone else, to not quote everyone of you, I see you keep missing the point here...
There is not anything like this I believe, I mean... there's some perhaps even dangerous "sport" out there, like it's paragliding and skydiving, flying suit insanity, free climbing, base jumping, parkour, etc... but all those sports are more ...a few individual adrenaline junkies gathering together and decide they get slightly boring with their life. They, in the lack of better word, call that a sport. Who can stop them to do whatever they feel like they wish with their lives ?
And this is something different, this is a mass, well organized, sport event. Just that... it's so dangerous it shouldn't be allowed in state as it is now. Maybe for a well protected cars, like WRC car is.
I hope you (better) get my point now. But I doubt, if you haven't already...

 

[JayB392]

@Paul Jeffrey
I am disappointed with you and this topic. You must be bored.

To be honest I am fed up with certain motorcycle forums, newspapers and some TV commentators asking the same question. We get it every year.
More people die on Mt Everest every year, would the do gooders and PC brigade want to ban mountain climbing too?
They all know the risks, as do the spectators. They wouldn't do it if there was no risk.
3 racers died this year. They died doing something they wanted to do. They didn't die of cancer, old age, liver disease or heart attack. They died knowing the risk and doing something they loved. Non racers and non road racing bikers could never understand.
There will always be the silly do-gooders in society who are against it. They are the ones who don't really understand these things. Normally the type of people who don't accept any risks in life, have never risked anything in life and probably have only looked after themselves. They should mind their own business and carry on mowing the lawn or doing the dishes.

You could apply the same logic to legalize any sort of drug
But basically I agree with you. Everyone is responsible for himself and these riders don't endanger any civilists.

 

[Dave Wild]

I have only been on a bike once and never again. I think they are an easy way to suicide and to ride one fast you need nothing between your ears <tic> However I will defend the TT and the riders to continue doing what they enjoy and are passionate about. if the argument is to ban it because of lost lives then lets ban cars. More innocent people are killed in road accidents than are killed during TT week. There's too much trying to wrap ever one up in cotton wool these days, thank goodness for the likes of the TT and the riders.

 

[gamer19]

Great ! Another... toasters are dangerous too let's ban that point. Good thinking !

You could apply the same logic to legalize any sort of drug
But basically I agree with you. Everyone is responsible for himself and these riders don't endanger any civilists.

What a hell are you talking about ? What are "civilists" ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Snaefell_Mountain_Course_fatalities

 

[FJBH10]

The way I see it, back when the TT was a round of the world championship it was wrong, those riders might have never ran in the TT voluntarily but pretty much had to ride for the sponsors and points, nowadays, everyone who rides does so by their choice. If one of these guys are unlucky enough to be injured or killed, it is not unjust because they accepted those risks when they pulled away from the starting line. Yes it is deadly and yes there are a ridiculous amount of deaths compared to other motorsports but these guys know what they are signing up for.

 

[Andy_J]

And this is something different, this is a mass, well organized, sport event. Just that... it's so dangerous it shouldn't be allowed in state as it is now. I hope you (better) get my point now. But I doubt, if you haven't already...

To be honest with you, I don't get your point at all. It may be mass and well organised but it's still voluntary and they still love doing it. I don't think you really understand it all.

 

[TzZyO]

So you must bee Harry Dunne huh. Nice to finally meet you too.

Speaking of substances abusers... I think we might have one right here.

If a crash in Indy500 with that ultra modern bumpers all that latest technology cars they got there and smacking a telephone pole on prestigious Isle of Man is really comparable... then I got nothing more to say to you. Go back in school only perhaps.

Going by your logic it should be still dangerous enough, ultra modern bumpers or not. Or maybe you are the one to decide when something is dangerous enough and when it isn't?
As for going back to school, well, why don't you?

I probably can be your father. Actually... that's not that unlikely... I had some pretty wild parties in my youth days and blurry, almost zero, recollection on them.

You are still in your youth days and you already admitted that. Go back to the school already.
If you lied about your age, that's borderline illegal (because you mentioned it as 18), and well, you lied. Still, even in that case there's a very slim chance you are older than me. But that wouldn't be a problem if your posts weren't that cringe-worthy. Actually, it's something one could expect of an 18 yo... If you are sufficiently older than that, not only you are a lier, you also have a brain of an 18 yo. So, which is it? Choose carefully...

Once again. Nobody forces the riders to take part in the TT. Nobody forces the bystanders to hang around the course. The riders don't do that because they want fame or money (good luck amassing either at those events). If you want to ban something to save a significant amount of lives, ban cars on public roads. Or at least ban using the goddamn cell-phones by the drivers.

 

[Frank]

I voted no, but that is only on the part of "should it be banned".

Isle of man TT is too dangerous in my opinion, but it should not be banned. Drivers choose themselves to take part, they know the risk, but they love what they do and they are willing to die for it. This is the magic that the TT has and always will have.