2010 Formula One German Grand Prix

[Dave Flower]

I think a line should be drawn and an example should be made, if it were up to me I would DQ both Massa and Alonso and fine Ferrari £1,000,0000.

Their is NO doubt they have clearly broken the rules. - Next time you get pulled over for speeding tell the Policeman - well I saw someone else doing it so I thought I would - think he will say OK on your way? No he will say you have broken the rules and here is a fine/ticket. So examples of what other teams may or may not have done, or gotten away with are irrelevant.

Why would I be so harsh? - Easy! Because F1 Fiasco's like today spoil my enjoyment of the sport, and I bet they spolied many, many other peoples enjoyment all over the world. F1 has worked hard over the last few years to reintroduce interest and increase the competitiveness and entertainment of the sport. What happened today undermines much of that, as spectators we don't want to see drivers being ordered to let people through, same as we didn't want to see 'procession' races where race after race the same cars finished in (almost) the same positions. F1 were wise to respond to and stop that trend, I think they need to get wise here and send a clear warning out to all the teams and drivers, that blatantly breaking the rules like this will come with a substantial penalty.

 

[ufunacaoenn]

Then I guess they had enough evidence to prve Ferrary as guilty.

 

[Xosé Estrada]

So to sumarize (and continue ), we have the following from a "penalty" perspective:

Fernando Alonso .- complaints against his teammate for not making him pass easily when he's faster.

Felipe Massa .- he was legaly defending position against his teammate, until he received a message saying his team mate is faster than him, and he "decides" to let him pass.

Scuderia Ferrari .- they tell Felipe Massa that Alonso is faster than him, and remark a "do you get it?". No direct team orders (no "let him pass" sentence), but really poor hidden ones.


What FIA can do now?.

Penalize Alonso would be unfair, would be a penalty for "crying" (like you like to say), and as far as I know, that is not illegal in F1. He just drove as fast as he could, moaning at same time as usual

Penalize Massa... he accepted and executed team orders, he did followed them. He could be penalized, but I consider him a victim, a "suicide victim", but a victim at the end.

Penalize Ferrari... I think this is the only option, maybe no points for Ferrari in teams' champ this race, and fine them like they did.

But then, to be fair, FIA should make clear the rule of team orders because IMHO is weird you can say "Pedro, blue potato" or "Lewis, somewhere over the rainbow there is a unicorn" when you can stablish before the race "blue potato" means don't attack, and somewhere over the rainbow is "let Jenson pass".

That will only lead to even more stupid and hypocritical radio codes.

Cya!.

 

[ufunacaoenn]

So to sumarize (and continue ), we have the following from a "penalty" perspective:

Fernando Alonso .- complaints against his teammate for not making him pass easily when he's faster.

Felipe Massa .- he was legaly defending position against his teammate, until he received a message saying his team mate is faster than him, and he "decides" to let him pass.

Scuderia Ferrari .- they tell Felipe Massa that Alonso is faster than him, and remark a "do you get it?". No direct team orders (no "let him pass" sentence), but really poor hidden ones.


What FIA can do now?.

Penalize Alonso would be unfair, would be a penalty for "crying" (like you like to say), and as far as I know, that is not illegal in F1. He just drove as fast as he could, moaning at same time as usual

Penalize Massa... he accepted and executed team orders, he did followed them. He could be penalized, but I consider him a victim, a "suicide victim", but a victim at the end.

Penalize Ferrari... I think this is the only option, maybe no points for Ferrari in teams' champ this race, and fine them like they did.

But then, to be fair, FIA should make clear the rule of team orders because IMHO is weird you can say "Pedro, blue potato" or "Lewis, somewhere over the rainbow there is a unicorn" when you can stablish before the race "blue potato" means don't attack, and somewhere over the rainbow is "let Jenson pass".

That will only lead to even more stupid and hypocritical radio codes.

Cya!.

Something like that, althought I would like to hear more Hypocritical radio Codes

 

[Kevin Watts]

But doesn't the teams have a black box that records evrything exaclue as the drivers hear the words that the pit Crew says.
How ever I hardly think they will be able to give eny good excuse since they failed to cheat properly.

Even armed with all the recordings Ferrari still do not say "Massa please move over so Alonso can win" Ferrari could just stonewall the FIA and say there were no team orders they were just informing a driver his team mate was faster and say they were telling him that to try and encourage better performance out of him and then asked if he understood just to make sure he heard the transmission. Again I'm not saying they were right I'm just saying the FIA don't have conclusive proof. However Ferrari might just accept the fine as a slap on the wrist and not fight it else the FIA might be more eager to pursue them later through the WMSC and give a worse punishment. It might be that accepting a fine is more like a plea bargain at a court of law.

Their is NO doubt they have clearly broken the rules. - Next time you get pulled over for speeding tell the Policeman - well I saw someone else doing it so I thought I would - think he will say OK on your way? No he will say you have broken the rules and here is a fine/ticket. So examples of what other teams may or may not have done, or gotten away with are irrelevant.

The FIA have no concrete proof unless Ferrari or one of the drivers put their hands up and admits it. A more accurate analogy to the one you put up would be a policeman pulling you over and saying "hey I think you were definitely speeding as you passed me on the side of the road but my speed camera wasn't working" then all you would say is "no I wasn't officer, prove it"

 

[Abdul Al-Amry]

Xose, you cant compare a team order eg from Mclaren telling Lewis to stay position and not overtake another car of a different team to Ferrari team order. Its not illegal for a driver of team A to be told what to do to a driver in team B. It is however illegal what Ferrari has done. This is close in comparison to Austria 2002. Clearly Alonso isnt running away with the points and leading the championship with him coming first position today.

 

[ufunacaoenn]

First of all, the polie officer cant prove that the driver was speeding and secondly to say that his speeding camera did not work is not an excuse either. Plus the Police officer most prove that the driver was speeding. In that case the driver would not be able to fall as guilty since the lack of evidence is major.

Now back to Formula 1, Sure Ferrari would find an excuse but what we (the viewers) lack is the radio talk after Alonso says "this is redicilus" because he and the team might had a convarsasion that can prove that what Ferrari did was a team order. (this is just speculation)

 

[Xosé Estrada]

Xose, you cant compare a team order eg from Mclaren telling Lewis to stay position and not overtake another car of a different team to Ferrari team order.

But I'm not talking about a car of a different team, I mean between teammates.

It happened this season many times, that many that you can recognise the "codes".

In Turkey, the two Saubers were comming 10 and 11 with De La Rosa with much better tyres and a much better pace than Koba, in 10th.

Then, team radio message showed and the sentence was like "Pedro, be extremly careful now, we want two cars on finish line". Pedro backed out, and lost the opportunity to score a point. That were team orders, he had the pace to do it, and if it was another teams' car, they would say "Push Pedro you can do it" instead, for sure.

Its not illegal for a driver of team A to be told what to do to a driver in team B. It is however illegal what Ferrari has done. This is close in comparison to Austria 2002. Clearly Alonso isnt running away with the points and leading the championship with him coming first position today.

I'm talking about drivers on same team, and put Turkey examples with both McLaren and Sauber.

Cya!.

 

[ufunacaoenn]

Xose, you cant compare a team order eg from Mclaren telling Lewis to stay position and not overtake another car of a different team to Ferrari team order. Its not illegal for a driver of team A to be told what to do to a driver in team B. It is however illegal what Ferrari has done. This is close in comparison to Austria 2002. Clearly Alonso isnt running away with the points and leading the championship with him coming first position today.

Do you mean this one?

 

[Omer Said]

Then, team radio message showed and the sentence was like "Pedro, be extremly careful now, we want two cars on finish line". Pedro backed out, and lost the opportunity to score a point. That were team orders, he had the pace to do it, and if it was another teams' car, they would say "Push Pedro you can do it" instead, for sure.

This is totally different, De La Rosa was going to DNF if he wasn't be careful about his car at that moment. I did'nt see any smoke coming from Massa's car Or a sign of tyre wear.

And Mclaren at Turkey fought really nice. If there were a team order, Button would'nt dare to pass Hamilton.

Please accept that this one was different than others. That's obvious!

 

[Pieter Theron]

If this is about fools then we have to start at the beginning... In all of this I think the FIA is the biggest fool. They in accordance with Bernie are only in this for the big money. Rules changes every other week and patches have to be applied when exploits are found. The whole thing for the last couple of years have been a serious joke..

Team Orders - I am quite sure all teams have team orders. They might just not make it so obvious as we've seen today. Let's be honest, as it stand at the moment Massa has no hope in hell of winning the championship and that's a FACT. So why not play the "corporate game" like everybody else? At the end of the day Ferrari is still paying his wages and 10/1 if he was in Alonso's shoes he'd expect the same being in the later part of the championship season.

I agree with what they did today I just don't agree with how openly it was done and how Ferrari employees made their feelings known and once again they forget who pays the wages. If you don't like the way it's done why not go somewhere else? No one is stopping anyone in finding a new job...

 

[Daniel Pettit]

critically they have been charged under 2 breaches, once for team orders and once for bringing the sport into disrepute.

you can argue all day over whether or not there is hard evidence of the team orders, however on the second count, thats the FIA's catch all for when they want to go 'above' evidence and deal with people however they please.

Under normal circumstances i'd say nothing would come of it, but given FA's conduct in 2007 at mclaren, then the singapore incident in 2008 and then the recent slating of the FIA over Valencia, i think something significant might happen here. It seems wherever he goes trouble and controversy follow

 

[Xosé Estrada]

This is totally different, De La Rosa was going to DNF if he wasn't be careful about his car at that moment. I did'nt see any smoke coming from Massa's car Or a sign of tyre wear.

And Mclaren at Turkey fought really nice. If there were a team order, Button would'nt dare to pass Hamilton.

Please accept that this one was different than others. That's obvious!

He wasn't going to DNF at all, he was closing on Koba very fast

 

[ufunacaoenn]

Wait, Rimember 2008 at France when Raikki got a problem with his car (dont rimember the problem). He let Massa pass since he knew that his injerd car cant give him the pase that MAssa had. BUT here it's totally diffirent, Massa had a helthy car that would drive as quickly as Alonso and alonso was just a few thousends of a second quicker for each lap.

As the Greek Commentator says, it's easier to close up the gap to the driver up ahead then to pass him. So that means that even if Alonso could catch Massa he would need to have the guts to pass Massa. I mean this is racing and TBH I would not care about eny WC since Alonso won't have a chans to fight for the Championship even with this win. Plus racing have allways been about fighting and earning your way to the top spot. Not like Alonso were the team offers him P1. In real life people need to fight hard evry day in order to get a good job and earn quite alot of money. There is no one who will come and say "here, take 1 Billion Dollers".

So to end this, if Alonso wanted P1 then he should fight for it and not take it just because he looks at Massa as a back marker.

 

[Xosé Estrada]

Under normal circumstances i'd say nothing would come of it, but given FA's conduct in 2007 at mclaren, then the singapore incident in 2008 and then the recent slating of the FIA over Valencia, i think something significant might happen here. It seems wherever he goes trouble and controversy follow

Singapore 2008 was proved Alonso had no knowing of it. He asked several times why his weird strategy on radio, and he did nothing different than what he was supposed to do, the conspiration did not needed him. Jesus, even when you are found innocent you have to defend yourself the rest of your life?

Valencia, LOL, now is Alonso's fault... really?, what he did, not overtaking the SC?

Here... he is in car, he has no access to Massa radio, what he did, apart from complain about Massa, is that illegal?

Tomorrow a war will break between the two Koreas and will be because Alonso...

 

[Xosé Estrada]

Wait.

Pedro was not going to DNF at all, he was faster than Koba

And... are trying to say there are not team orders in F1 then?, you said the opposite before, but that this were not explicit.

Cya!.

 

[Omer Said]

He wasn't going to DNF at all, he was closing on Koba very fast

Ok you maybe right. lol fail . Looked to Qualifying Results. I should have never entered into an argument with mr. Estrada the debatemaster

 

[Xosé Estrada]

De La Rosa finished 13th while Kob finished 10th, it seems Sauber wanted him to give positions to rivals ???

Which GP are you talking about?

9 14
Adrian Sutil Force India-Mercedes 58 +49.0


10 23 Kamui Kobayashi
BMW Sauber-Ferrari 58 +65.6

11 22 Pedro de la Rosa BMW Sauber-Ferrari 58 +65.9


+0.3 difference.

Turkish GP 2010

 

[Xosé Estrada]

Ok you maybe right. lol fail . Looked to Qualifying Results. I should have never entered into an argument with mr. Estrada the debatemaster

If I don't boost this forum who will?

 

[Omer Said]

lol