Why am I rubbish?

[Kek700]

I am just about passable at Assetto Corsa, bit rubbish, but ok, but Assetto Corsa Competizione I am totally rubbish.
Some 4 to 5 seconds off the pace at Imola.

Admittedly I don't practice much, but assumed it should be an easy jump from AC gt3 to ACC gt3.

I don't expect an obvious answer, nothing in life is that easy, but you never know.

 

[Kek700]

I have driven loads from the past, and present, like you said some were good to drive, some, from my perspective we’re ridiculous.
When Rob said what he said I started to think about the underivable ones.
That got me thinking that, from an average joe soap point of view, also from another conversation from a couple years back, may be trying to approach sim racing from the same point of view to my meagre real racing hobby.
Got me thinking that maybe there’s more to this than I had previously thought.
That’s it really, not really any the wiser, the same amazement at how fast some of you guys are.

 

[demetri]

I have driven loads from the past, and present, like you said some were good to drive, some, from my perspective we’re ridiculous.
When Rob said what he said I started to think about the underivable ones.
That got me thinking that, from an average joe soap point of view, also from another conversation from a couple years back, may be trying to approach sim racing from the same point of view to my meagre real racing hobby.
Got me thinking that maybe there’s more to this than I had previously thought.
That’s it really, not really any the wiser, the same amazement at how fast some of you guys are.

Anyway, the point is that there's no magical setup or hardware that will make you 5-6 seconds faster at Spa. Having a better set of screens, wheel and pedals definitely helps with consistency, but it can't do miracles. Similar things with setups, when you're many seconds off it's not that, it's you driving your car wrong: overdriving or underdriving, not using the whole width of the track, shifting too early or late, etc

 

[Rob Every]

I believe it makes about half of that difference (5-6 secs a lap), and that is a thorough understanding of the game physics, and that means good and bad, everything, temps, track temp, outside, wind, aero, shocks, the works.

Good FFB knowledge and gear, a decent screen setup and PC.

Over a guy with similar pace initially, all that will gain considerable time, the other guy with practice will get there, and get consistent too, but he will never gain the time the guy with the best kit and knowledge can get.

I liken it to safe and aggressive setups, safe is never quicker, no matter what to the same driver who has got to a level., and this is what I mean, you are seeing the evidence in front of your eyes.

 

[demetri]

Over a guy with similar pace initially, all that will gain considerable time, the other guy with practice will get there, and get consistent too, but he will never gain the time the guy with the best kit and knowledge can get.

Not true. I have a decent "kit", yet get beaten regularly by guys who were slower when they started and are using simpler stuff. Also, I didn't really gain time after upgrading from G27 and single 23" screen. Nice hardware makes this hobby more enjoyable, but that's about it.
If you're slow and want to improve you need to spend time (sometimes lots of time) finding what you're doing wrong and fix it. And you do need to know some basic physics stuff of course. If you have no clue about how suspension or downforce works in general you're gonna have many issues.

 

[Kek700]

I sit in the middle, top gear does nothing to make you faster, a setup has no magical properties, I just took on board what I think Rob said, that maybe an unstable setup and a way of exploring it’s advantages may explain these very fast drivers I see on occasions especially on open public servers.

 

[guidofoc]

Question for you guys: i have never bought any paid setup (Coach Dave etc.) what kind of advantage do they give? I mean are we talking seconds per lap?
As I mentioned before, changing brake pads gave me a few tenths. I expect that a good suspension/aero setup will shave a few more tenths, so overall it could really be 1 sec or more per lap on some tracks. Am I wrong?
Of course, I understand that one first needs to learn the track and be consistent in order to appreciate a setup change. Still, even 3-5 tenths a lap during a race can make a difference.

 

[RasmusP]

I believe it makes about half of that difference (5-6 secs a lap), and that is a thorough understanding of the game physics, and that means good and bad, everything, temps, track temp, outside, wind, aero, shocks, the works.

Good FFB knowledge and gear, a decent screen setup and PC.

Over a guy with similar pace initially, all that will gain considerable time, the other guy with practice will get there, and get consistent too, but he will never gain the time the guy with the best kit and knowledge can get.

I liken it to safe and aggressive setups, safe is never quicker, no matter what to the same driver who has got to a level., and this is what I mean, you are seeing the evidence in front of your eyes.

Get telemetry from one of the guys who "do nothing better than you but have a better setup" and you'll see that you simply suck in comparison.
I was lucky to occasionally get telemetry and setups from very fast people and it was always just me who sucked, no magic setup.

Sure, with an oversteery suicide setup that bounces at every kerb it won't be possible, nor with an understeering ship like setup.
But from your mentioned 5-6 seconds, maybe 1.5 are down to the setup.


And sure, some people will invest a lot of time into the sim, but maybe they are just more efficient in learning, practicing, visualizing things etc.

My best friend and I both play guitar. When we're practicing a new song to play together he sometimes gets frustrated about me learning the difficult parts so much faster than him.
I then remind him about my 200 hours of finger training with a metronome that I've done over the last 10 years.
He never did any of them.

Now he plays more than me since about 2 years but still never did efficient finger training routines so some things won't improve anytime soon.

So maybe these fast guys do spend a bit more time in the sims. But maybe they had a way better starting point than you.
Or they're just more efficient.


About equipment: seeing more (monitor/vr) makes it easier to learn a track or battle in a tight pack. But once you're at a certain speed level and just hotlapping, you don't need to see more or better. You just need to remember more track markers instead of only taking in what you're seeing in realtime.

Same for wheels and pedals. Better equipment let's you feel things better in real time so you can get faster... Fast.
But once you're down to only improving every tenth lap during practice, this difference diminishes.


There's one thing that I have to say about getting better wheel and pedals:
If you never felt some ffb signals in your life, you won't be able to "detect" them on a weak wheel.
When I upgraded from g27 to fanatec csw 2.5 I wasn't faster around the Nordschleife. Not even half a second.
BUT then there was that one corner before Schwalbenschwanz (second carrussell) where you're dancing on the brakes and throttle at over 200 km/h.
With the fanatec wheel I could feel the increased grip from the working aero.
I gained 2 seconds in that single corner.

But nothing throughout the rest of the lap...

I also "unlocked" to feel the front tyres getting loaded when braking. Feeling the weight shift in the ffb strength.
Got a lot faster in the BMW 235i.

Then I tried the g27 again and what should I say?
I could feel the aero load at the Nordschleife and also the weight shifting.
It was a lot more subtle but now that I knew how both feel like, I could feel both things with the g27 and got just as fast...


With pedals it's different. As long as your body is precisely enough, pedals above the Logitech ones don't make you faster.
But a lot of people simply can't be precisely enough for g27 pedals for example. Not enough resistance.
I didn't really have any issues with them. Driving in socks and being young and used to the super light pedals from today's road cars.

But when my dad tried my setup he just stomped on the pedals. It looked pretty "digital". 100% or 0%

So if you suck or are physically handicapped to be precise enough, then pedals make you faster, yes.

A better wheel can unlock new ffb stuff. Once unlocked you don't need it anymore though.
You can also unlock it by doing a driver training, practicing with a real kart etc.

 

[demetri]

Question for you guys: i have never bought any paid setup (Coach Dave etc.) what kind of advantage do they give? I mean are we talking seconds per lap?
As I mentioned before, changing brake pads gave me a few tenths. I expect that a good suspension/aero setup will shave a few more tenths, so overall it could really be 1 sec or more per lap on some tracks. Am I wrong?
Of course, I understand that one first needs to learn the track and be consistent in order to appreciate a setup change. Still, even 3-5 tenths a lap during a race can make a difference.

Very competent alien-level drivers I know keep saying that those CDA setups are a just few tenths faster than stock aggressive setups. That's it.

 

[BabyGotBackmarker]

Question for you guys: i have never bought any paid setup (Coach Dave etc.) what kind of advantage do they give? I mean are we talking seconds per lap?
As I mentioned before, changing brake pads gave me a few tenths. I expect that a good suspension/aero setup will shave a few more tenths, so overall it could really be 1 sec or more per lap on some tracks. Am I wrong?
Of course, I understand that one first needs to learn the track and be consistent in order to appreciate a setup change. Still, even 3-5 tenths a lap during a race can make a difference.

I sprung for CDA's Bentley setup bundle yesterday and saw immediate improvement. Aliens are going to say it only shaves off a few tenths of a second because they're doing just fine in their own right to begin with. It's really up to who you are. For me, I'm just trying to get more competitive and I don't have a brain that's mechanically inclined. I knew I wasn't getting the most out of cars. I didn't want to spend a week taking Addarall and drinking black coffee to study YouTube setup tutorials (though there are a lot of great people putting out outstanding educational content.) You just have to assess where you are as a driver and determine for yourself.

 

[Kek700]

Bought the same setup as you, same car, it really was a well thought out setup, learnt a lot from it, in the end used my own setup and was quicker with that.
And it was quite a bit different?
The MoTeC trace was very revealing, no way, whatever I did, could I get anywhere the exit speeds he achieved.
That and that alone was the difference in time. I am talking about 10km/h difference. Not being fair really, there were some 10ths here and there.

 

[Junior McColl]

The AMG 2020 is by far the best car to use on Imola but the Bentley is by far the easiest car to learn and to drive in ACC try it and ACC is by en large a very realistic Sim so practice and lots of it is key too

 

[Rob Every]

I can give you a bad example

Used the two defaults for Monza in hte V12 Aston, not that bad speed wise, but very hard to drive, very oversteery, hard to turn in, yet for the Lambo and Jag defaults both safe and agg were both fine, could lap much quicker in equal conditions.

So again, this is all down to recognising what the issue is, knowing how to solve it, or how the devs WANT you to solve it, and knowing exactly how you drive

 

[SPEED-DEMON]

Very competent alien-level drivers I know keep saying that those CDA setups are a just few tenths faster than stock aggressive setups. That's it.

Well, they back up the setups with actual laptimes and replay data.
I use some CDA setups, I also use some of my own.
The CDA ones are decent enough and on some tracks they are quicker than my own setups, others they are slower than my own....but again, we have to remember that setups can be a personal thing. Most of my own setups were created using motec data and drivability of the car.
As for the CDA ones, we can agree that they have been tried and tested and they are capable with time spent on developing them. Will they be faster than your own made setups (if you understand setting a car up)? Maybe.
I like to do both personally. On some tracks the CDA set is very good, on others, my own is faster, and this is purely down to my driving style on some tracks.

 

[Richard Dastardly]

Must remember the default setups are extremely variable, not only across car but track too. Some are just terrible, like the AMG ones that fall onto the bumpstops out of corners... some like the v8 aston just drive. BoP is kinda wierd too - the GT-R is surprisingly fast at Oulton Park of all places, you'd think it'd not really appreciate that place. The Jag goes pretty fast all over the place if you tune it ( although I'd like to know which mechanic put the wrong damper fluid in so I can fire them... )

I haven't bought a setup, I'm trying to find the sweet spot for my own - after a season I'm starting to get there for the Bentley at least. I never quite find the time in the week to get one right - comparison Imola lap to the one from page 2(?) with a sprint race setup, can see how it's improved but not quite there ( although tbh I wasn't quite there either after no practice all week ). Sunday FP again iirc. It's an iterative and very time consuming thing, I've never had a problem with people not bothering given they just want to race.

I did sub to Craig's setup shop ( via twitch prime which was doing nothing ) for iRacing for a bit, but iRacing setups are so bizarre & not terribly tied to reality I wouldn't know where to start anyway.

 

[Kek700]

I have had enough of ACC, I was 10km/hr plus more, off, on some corner exit speeds at Imola, even kamikaze a corner could get no where near. Eventually accepting an obvious off, still miles away.

I then put all the other circuits into the bag multipled it by all the effort at Imola.

Manage a best of 1:42:0.5, even that was random from one day to the next.


Eventually lost the will to live with ACC.

 

[BabyGotBackmarker]

I've had decent "get in and drive" moments with the Bentley, Lexus and weirdly enough the Porsche. Ferrari is similarly drivable, just a bit more nervous. AMG has been undrivable for me on the presets, which is a huge disappointment.

I think in order for sim racing to stay viable and accessible, sim studios need to put more into setup interface across the board.

 

[Rob Every]

I think really this is the crux of it.

The best players are not only fast, they understand both the game physics and the setup systems.

Us goons just get in do the basics, drive around issues and think we are doing OK, but someone who knows how to fix setup issues will just know, we never will.

Setups for you won't work for me etc, it is not like that, it is about working out how it all works, and for most of us, that is a pain, we want to do it, but only know basics of how to start, that is not where the big time is found, it is in all sorts of stuff you need to know the game to understand.

I tried to mess with setups at Hungary, my worst car is the Reiter Gallardo, I tried both setups found safe was easier, then dropped into the V8 Aston and went 3 seconds a lap faster with default aggressive and some basic changes.

Sometimes at Spa you will fly off the road at Blanchimont with default setups, it just spins you round with no real explanation.

 

[guidofoc]

I was in the RD GT championship first race last night at Donington, and as a "Sunday driver" of course I did not have the pace of the guys in front. I finished only 21st out of ~40 starters after being spun at the beginning and having to drive half race with a damaged rear. This was fun too as I had to "learn" to tame the Porsche even with less rear aero load, and also had to claw some positions back in the second half of the race after being relegated to 30th place. Control the "mad" Porsche, check if the pressures are fine, adjust them on the fly prior to the pit stop, do a nice clean stop, be careful not to get a track limits penalty, attack the car in front, let the fast guys lap me.. the second half of the race was full attack and it was so much fun. I understand one races to win, but I am rather proud of my race.

I was using the standard aggressive setup with brake pads at 1 and two more clicks of differential preload (not sure if they worked, i was trying to make the car less tail-happy while coasting). I had done 2-3 races against the AI to prepare for the event, my main goal was to be consistent. I tried to learn braking and turn-in points for all corners and understand my Porsche which tends to do.. Porsche things.

@Kek700 I think the amount of time/dedication one can put into a hobby like this can vary. I am 50 years old and have a family and a full-time job. I mostly play on weekends. Also I am not Senna. I think that one needs to focus on realistic goals, otherwise there is only frustration.

If I may add something, while training against the AI I realized how just a few tenths a lap can make all the difference, so one really needs to work on the details. Sometimes I think i am giving it all, only to understand an hour later that doing a line a tad different around a corner gives me an advantage. Applying those little bits brought me from 20th position on the grid to pole position against 100% AI. Ok it's only the AI but it's a good lesson, and the lesson is you need to persevere. If I could practice every day I would probably find more "little bits". Maybe I would plateau at some point and I think i said already I am not Senna but I think being able to do a fast, consistent race is a great satisfaction and great fun, especially if you are racing against "pros".

As a last note, consider the sheer number of people who own ACC. The pool of potential "Sennas" is huge. Let's say they sold 250.000 copies, and that out of those 250.000 there is a tiny 0.1% of true outstanding racing "gods". That would still be 250 people!

 

[Kek700]

@Kek700 I think the amount of time/dedication one can put into a hobby like this can vary. I am 50 years old and have a family and a full-time job. I mostly play on weekends. Also I am not Senna. I think that one needs to focus on realistic goals, otherwise there is only frustration.

50 years old seems so young to me, I think you have the wrong me there.

 

[Richard Dastardly]

Sometimes at Spa you will fly off the road at Blanchimont with default setups, it just spins you round with no real explanation.

That's likely the aero balance being off, or the rear being so soft the aero is pushing the car onto the bump rubbers ( essentially making the rear suspension super stiff ). Given how soft some of the default setups are, quite possibly the latter.

There's other cars with almost no travel in the front suspension in the defaults ( eg Porsche ) which almost instantly roll onto the bump rubbers & understeer. Even just a couple clicks more travel can gain what is now excess front grip, so then you have to redo the entire rest of the setup...

Whoever said the Bentley was the easiest car... well, I'd agree and not agree. To me it's certainly the most fun, very talkative & quite neutral, but it also just doesn't quite have the easy performance of say, the V8 Aston - especially seems to lack front aero. I've had a season of sparring with a couple of guys just a bit quicker than me in those things and I had to work my arse off getting a setup that'd let me keep up with their near-defaults...

2018 BoP seems a little more in line but then there's the 2018 Lexus to contend with.