TT Isle of Man - The Game 2

[MarkR]

@Damage Inc agree, using a gamepad to control a vehicle in VR is just strange.

It might not be your normal sort of thing but have you ever tried VTOL VR - an indie VR flying game. All you hold in each hand is the Oculus Rift hand controller. This allows you to flip cockpit switches, push and pull levers, select MFD displays and even 'hold' the flight controls naturally. It's one of the most intuitive and innovative control systems I've experienced, much closer to a real cockpit than pressing keys on a keyboard. There is no weight to the flight controls of course as it's just your hands but it fools the brain well into feeling like you are holding the throttle and stick. It does make me wonder what could be achieved if developers were willing to be more creative and take a risk, I'm sure someone could come up with a good handlebar solution for VR.

 

[Damage Inc]

@Damage Inc agree, using a gamepad to control a vehicle in VR is just strange.

It might not be your normal sort of thing but have you ever tried VTOL VR - an indie VR flying game. All you hold in each hand is the Oculus Rift hand controller. This allows you to flip cockpit switches, push and pull levers, select MFD displays and even 'hold' the flight controls naturally. It's one of the most intuitive and innovative control systems I've experienced, much closer to a real cockpit than pressing keys on a keyboard. There is no weight to the flight controls of course as it's just your hands but it fools the brain well into feeling like you are holding the throttle and stick. It does make me wonder what could be achieved if developers were willing to be more creative and take a risk, I'm sure someone could come up with a good handlebar solution for VR.

not got a VR ready rig yet, hopefully in the new year, but that VTOL VR does sound excellent. Although no weight, feeling would still make things too weird for a bike game IMO, non bike riders would probably find it cool, but riding a bike is physical....sadly that precludes any realistic control method that is cheap. Then again proper countersteer would be possible........colour me intrigued and I hope someone does it! Best would be the IAS controller, but I don't know if the chap who makes them is still around...just checked oh yes!

bike controller

It'd be better if the whole bike could lean!!

 

[dave kirk]

Not really, you can't patch fundamentally WRONG physics. Bikes and cars are totally different, there's no amount of patching that could fix TTIOMs handling issues. Yes it was ok when in control, but at the moment of loss of grip/control EVERYTHING was wrong about how the bike reacted.

The first time I locked up the brakes and the Ca...I mean Bike just slid off to the side like a car understeering I knew it was flawed, on a bike the front tucks and you kiss the tarmac. When losing the rear in the game, it just came round until you speared off into a wall/hedge...a bike should highside, ether resulting in a crash if severe enough or pant filling rodeo ride (think mamola!).

NONE of that basic physical behaviour was in TTIOM. Hopefully it'll be in the new game. Milestone do it right, it's just that they give us ridiculous amounts of grip so loss of grip is rare and easily controllable. Any control input on a bike needs to be subtle, do anything harsh and sudden and they will bite you on the arse!

Once again, totally missing the point

 

[Damage Inc]

Once again, totally missing the point

Nope I know what people are saying, and they're wrong.

 

[MJP1979]

Not really, you can't patch fundamentally WRONG physics. *snip*

Spot on about the bike behaviour and Milestone's RIDE but TT COULD have been patched, in the end, it's just code like any other patch. Codemasters recently fiddled with the physics in the new GRID (for the worse). So it's possible, it just would've taken time and effort.

 

[Jugulador]

Spot on about the bike behaviour and Milestone's RIDE but TT COULD have been patched, in the end, it's just code like any other patch. Codemasters recently fiddled with the physics in the new GRID (for the worse). So it's possible, it just would've taken time and effort.

Right you are, even that is very different to change the game's physics model to just tune an existing one. In theory you can patch Atari 2600's Enduro into Codemaster's F1, BUT do you think that is fair to ask to a small studio to make that much of changes in their TWO YEARS OLD game and release it as a free patch?

 

[MJP1979]

Right you are, even that is very different to change the game's physics model to just tune an existing one. In theory you can patch Atari 2600's Enduro into Codemaster's F1, BUT do you think that is fair to ask to a small studio to make that much of changes in their TWO YEARS OLD game and release it as a free patch?

I don't think you're correct about coding an Atari game into a modern one, there'd be physics limitations due to the processor if I understand it correctly and frankly there's a big difference between that and a bit of tweeking within the one game, which is done semi regularly across the industry.

And no, I don't expect them to tweek/rework the physics now, that COULD have been done when the game released when many pointed out the faults. They chose not to, hopefully they get it right this time as I also think most will be much more weary this time around and seeing as the first game didn't sell too well, they should make it priority no.1 or this may be their last.

 

[dave kirk]

Nope I know what people are saying, and they're wrong.

You don't know what I am saying otherwise you would accept and stop answer something something not said.

 

[Jugulador]

I don't think you're correct about coding an Atari game into a modern one...

Hyperbole, mate... just an hyperbole

And no, I don't expect them to tweek/rework the physics now, that COULD have been done when the game released when many pointed out the faults. They chose not to, hopefully they get it right this time as I also think most will be much more weary this time around and seeing as the first game didn't sell too well, they should make it priority no.1 or this may be their last.

As I said on my fist post on this topic:

The first TTIOM was very flawed, but yet not landed too far from the target.

This new game deserves a moderated hype.

I agree that they could have done it better, but they released an ok game... 5/10, IMHO. Considering what they are promising about the continuation, it served as an experience... and considering Steam reception, it was good enough. Not for me nor for you, but TT2 will be an evolution, if they deliver what is promised.

 

[pitkin]

I'm confused by all the no VR no buy comments, I presume you all have bike controllers...i.e. handle bars? Because you have the realism of feeling "on" the bike when your hands will be doing anything but controlling a bike? I just find it weird.....do people play the car sims in VR with pads?

People will place more value on certain types of 'realism' than others. I for one went from triples to VR and found that I can't go back to pancake view for driving games. Saying that, I can understand why some would find playing on monitors more convincing, due to the graphical fidelity that gets lost in VR. It's all relative, no one thing will be right for everyone.

The 'no vr no buy' type comments show any devs watching these forums there is an appetite for it. If there's even the slimmest chance it will influence the decision to include it, I'm there giving a thumbs up. It's like a bit of free market research for them.

As for controllers, I played the original with a DS4 controller, steering mapped to the gyro. It wasn't perfect, but it meant I could lean into the corners. Took a lot of tweaking in the DS4windows program to get a decent feeling, but it felt better to me than the thumbsticks in the end.

 

[Damage Inc]

Spot on about the bike behaviour and Milestone's RIDE but TT COULD have been patched, in the end, it's just code like any other patch. Codemasters recently fiddled with the physics in the new GRID (for the worse). So it's possible, it just would've taken time and effort.

Once again I disagree about patcing because TTIOM used car physics as it's base and cars and bike are completely different. At the point of loss of grip/control, the bikes act like cars and that's completely wrong, bikes and cars do not act the same way with loss of grip, bikes low side and high side, cars do not. It would require a fundamental rewrite of the physics from the ground up. Which hopefully is what they have done for the sequel (and they say they have) .Do you think RF1 could just be patched into RF2?

 

[Damage Inc]

You don't know what I am saying otherwise you would accept and stop answer something something not said.

Well then for gawds sakes clarify just what on earth you're trying to say then? Rather than be obtuse.


ah......you just want it to cost nowt?

 

[Damage Inc]

People will place more value on certain types of 'realism' than others. I for one went from triples to VR and found that I can't go back to pancake view for driving games. Saying that, I can understand why some would find playing on monitors more convincing, due to the graphical fidelity that gets lost in VR. It's all relative, no one thing will be right for everyone.

The 'no vr no buy' type comments show any devs watching these forums there is an appetite for it. If there's even the slimmest chance it will influence the decision to include it, I'm there giving a thumbs up. It's like a bit of free market research for them.

As for controllers, I played the original with a DS4 controller, steering mapped to the gyro. It wasn't perfect, but it meant I could lean into the corners. Took a lot of tweaking in the DS4windows program to get a decent feeling, but it felt better to me than the thumbsticks in the end.

Just out of curiosity, do you mainly play car or bike games in VR? With a pad or wheel? Just to clarify... genuinely curious, not a troll comment. I don't think I could play a car sim in VR with a pad either, I think I'd find the conflicting messages to the brain weird, eyes telling me "this is almost real", hands telling me "nope, it's a game".

But then that's me!! Even that controller setup I linked to wouldn't be quite right as the bike itself doesn't lean!

 

[pitkin]

Just out of curiosity, do you mainly play car or bike games in VR? With a pad or wheel? Just to clarify... genuinely curious, not a troll comment. I don't think I could play a car sim in VR with a pad either, I think I'd find the conflicting messages to the brain weird, eyes telling me "this is almost real", hands telling me "nope, it's a game".

But then that's me!! Even that controller setup I linked to wouldn't be quite right as the bike itself doesn't lean!

I only play car games in VR, using a Logitech G29 wheel. I'm not even aware of any bike games compatible with VR, which is a shame as I think it would be quite an adrenaline rush. Maybe VR on a bike sim would be difficult due to the disconnect with our own movement and what the bike is actually doing, so thinking about it, not such a good idea.

I'd find VR driving with a pad weird as well. Even holding a wheel can feel odd, if it's not quite at the same place visually as it is in reality.

 

[dave kirk]

Well then for gawds sakes clarify just what on earth you're trying to say then? Rather than be obtuse.


ah......you just want it to cost nowt?

It's pretty simple, whether or not it can be done (which despite you saying you repeatedly it can't, despite not even knowing this for sure!!!!) is not what I am discussing I am saying the "updated physics" would be perceived by most as something which would be an update rather than a new game, such as done by RF2, AMS, ACC, AC, Iracing etc.
Now I just hope this is the end of the ridiculous back and forth.

 

[Damage Inc]

I only play car games in VR, using a Logitech G29 wheel. I'm not even aware of any bike games compatible with VR, which is a shame as I think it would be quite an adrenaline rush. Maybe VR on a bike sim would be difficult due to the disconnect with our own movement and what the bike is actually doing, so thinking about it, not such a good idea.

I'd find VR driving with a pad weird as well. Even holding a wheel can feel odd, if it's not quite at the same place visually as it is in reality.

Yup that's what I meant about the VR comments for a bike game, it'd be too weird to have the POV of being on the bike without holding onto bars.

 

[Damage Inc]

It's pretty simple, whether or not it can be done (which despite you saying you repeatedly it can't, despite not even knowing this for sure!!!!) is not what I am discussing I am saying the "updated physics" would be perceived by most as something which would be an update rather than a new game, such as done by RF2, AMS, ACC, AC, Iracing etc.
Now I just hope this is the end of the ridiculous back and forth.

And my point is they are wrong, so why are you arguing? Whether people "think" that is more typical of a "patch" is irrelevant. That doesn't make them correct and I addressed that, then you barged in saying it's "beside the point".

Yes it is ridiculous because you are missing MY point of why it cannot be done FOR SURE, all those games you mention are car games that updated the physics to what?.....cars...oh yes. Whereas TTIOM had physics clearly based on cars with bike handling bodged on top.....do you see my point now. It would require a complete REWRITE of the physics engine, when people do that we tend to get brand a new game and not a "patched" update.

In short, cars and bikes are not the same. The Physics in the 1st game utterly and completely flawed from the ground UP. People who think it could be "simply" patched are wrong. And I'm certain patched physics in a car game is not "simple" to begin with.



edit, just realised you say AC AND ACC, erm why couldn't Kunos simply patch AC with all the ACC stuff? Why did it require a rewrite, new engine and a NEW game??

 

[dave kirk]

And my point is they are wrong, so why are you arguing? Whether people "think" that is more typical of a "patch" is irrelevant. That doesn't make them correct and I addressed that, then you barged in saying it's "beside the point".

Yes it is ridiculous because you are missing MY point of why it cannot be done FOR SURE, all those games you mention are car games that updated the physics to what?.....cars...oh yes. Whereas TTIOM had physics clearly based on cars with bike handling bodged on top.....do you see my point now. It would require a complete REWRITE of the physics engine, when people do that we tend to get brand a new game and not a "patched" update.

In short, cars and bikes are not the same. The Physics in the 1st game utterly and completely flawed from the ground UP. People who think it could be "simply" patched are wrong. And I'm certain patched physics in a car game is not "simple" to begin with.



edit, just realised you say AC AND ACC, erm why couldn't Kunos simply patch AC with all the ACC stuff? Why did it require a rewrite, new engine and a NEW game??

First, I didn't miss your point, you're simply making a different one.
Second, how are you so sure they can't do a physics update on the game? you repeatedly insist with no evidence.
Third, my point you have repeatedly argued against still stands

 

[Damage Inc]

First, I didn't miss your point, you're simply making a different one.
Second, how are you so sure they can't do a physics update on the game? you repeatedly insist with no evidence.
Third, my point you have repeatedly argued against still stands

I was replying to the others saying I disagree with them, you come in and quote my post saying I'm missing their point....I don't care what their points are because they're wrong.

Of course They could update the physics, but when the basis of the physics is CAR based it would NEVER be right. It would have been better because it couldn't possibly be worse, but the fundamentals of low and high sides would be wrong or faked.

When a bike locks the front, the whole machine doesn't just slide, it tucks and you go down like a tonne of bricks, when the rear breaks loose and you instinctively throttle off, the rear has a strong chance to re-grip and high side the rider off into orbit. NONE of that happens in TTIOM The physics are beyond awful and completely wrong when the tyres lose grip.

This is not even open for debate for anyone who knows the slightest thing about bikes. I mean the Milestone games are far too easy and forgiving but the basis of the physics is clearly correct, it just needs a LOT of hamfisted throttle and braking to get the bike to crash, but when it does it does it right. Unlike TTIOM.

Fundamentally wrong bike behaviour on or over the edge of grip. I am PRAYING the sequel handles better and I can finally race around the Mountain and fully enjoy it as opposed to partially enjoying it now then going "what the BLEEP just happened then?" as my bike does something weird in the original.

I want proper bike based physics from the ground up, and I'm happy it sounds like this is what we may get. A REWRITE of the physics and not a patch.

In fact I just reread the news article and that's exactly what it says...I mean why are you arguing.....or is it the fact that it only directly mentions 3 or 4 improvements in the article. If they've re written the physics then there will be more improvements than just that (hopefully with better edge of grip behaviour.)

 

[dave kirk]

I was replying to the others saying I disagree with them, you come in and quote my post saying I'm missing their point....I don't care what their points are because they're wrong.

Of course They could update the physics, but when the basis of the physics is CAR based it would NEVER be right. It would have been better because it couldn't possibly be worse, but the fundamentals of low and high sides would be wrong or faked.

When a bike locks the front, the whole machine doesn't just slide, it tucks and you go down like a tonne of bricks, when the rear breaks loose and you instinctively throttle off, the rear has a strong chance to re-grip and high side the rider off into orbit. NONE of that happens in TTIOM The physics are beyond awful and completely wrong when the tyres lose grip.

This is not even open for debate for anyone who knows the slightest thing about bikes. I mean the Milestone games are far too easy and forgiving but the basis of the physics is clearly correct, it just needs a LOT of hamfisted throttle and braking to get the bike to crash, but when it does it does it right. Unlike TTIOM.

Fundamentally wrong bike behaviour on or over the edge of grip. I am PRAYING the sequel handles better and I can finally race around the Mountain and fully enjoy it as opposed to partially enjoying it now then going "what the BLEEP just happened then?" as my bike does something weird in the original.

I want proper bike based physics from the ground up, and I'm happy it sounds like this is what we may get. A REWRITE of the physics and not a patch.

In fact I just reread the news article and that's exactly what it says...I mean why are you arguing.....or is it the fact that it only directly mentions 3 or 4 improvements in the article. If they've re written the physics then there will be more improvements than just that (hopefully with better edge of grip behaviour.)

There you go, glad you agree with us all now lol