Toyota Disqualified from WEC Silverstone 6h – Rebellion Inherits Victory

[M-Bimmer]

Ouch that must hurt

 

[MPortnoy]

Toyota this season be like racing against the AI at the lowest difficulty level with all assists on.
What a joke

 

[Will Mazeo]

Toyota did not take any risk. Drivers raced like they should. Toyota underestimated the degradation of the skid block on a renovated track, end of story.

EoT may not be good, but at the end of the day a full factory effort will always lead to a better, faster car than privateers. Easy to criticize Toyota, but they have not defected like Audi and Porsche and they keep some life into LMP1.

By the way it was a rather dull race in the other classes as well. A proper BoP does not guarantee a breathtaking show.

That was just a poor excuse, one journalist said every team he talked to made jokes about Toyota with "better not visit Sebring then". They were cheating and got caught.
And the race was pretty nice, great battles with Rebellion and SMP. Great stuff in P2 and GTE Pro as well.

 

[Glaurung]

I hope that a manufacturer with a work team joins the WEC LMP1 class as soon as possible, because the whole WEC championship is slowly dieing without a proper prototype competition.
FIA should act to give to this championship the proper attention, instead full focusing on F1.

 

[gamer19]

And Alonso really wants to escape to THIS ?
The whole "cheating in every race (first that Russian team @ Lemans now this)/slash/only one team can win-they just need to show up" saga.
What a frickin joke THIS is.
Not to mention that you have to watch THIS for like 6, 12, 24 hours ?
F1 anytime. 1.5 hour and I'm on my trusty bike away away we go. MotoGP is even like half of that.
My condolences if you're truly a fan of ...THIS.

 

[Constantin Grimminger]

Still doesn't hide the fact that Toyota are in another series right now while the privateers are consistently 2-3 seconds slower. Why cant WEC employ BOP for the toyotas like in LMGTE?

Cant wait for the new hypercar Regulations so Toyota have some friends at the front

Other than that WEC is at an all time low for me right now.

Who's gonna join the Hypercar LMP1s though? Ford and Ferrari are already out of it, VW ain't come back either, leaves out Toyota. Without any chance of the current privateers to take part in it. Brilliant.

I hope that a manufacturer with a work team joins the WEC LMP1 class as soon as possible, because the whole WEC championship is slowly dieing without a proper prototype competition.
FIA should act to give to this championship the proper attention, instead full focusing on F1.

Could get solved way easier: get rid of any works effort in LMP1 aswell. We have a quite healthy privateer field already and I can only assume that some LMP2 teams would make the jump over to LMP1 if they could have a proper chance at winning races. Unpopular opinion though.

And Alonso really wants to escape to THIS ?
The whole "cheating in every race (first that Russian team @ Lemans now this)/slash/only one team can win-they just need to show up" saga.
What a frickin joke THIS is.
Not to mention that you have to watch THIS for like 6, 12, 24 hours ?
F1 anytime. 1.5 hour and I'm on my trusty bike away away we go. MotoGP is even like half of that.
My condolences if you're truly a fan of ...THIS.

If you don't like it, why do you even watch it or talk about it. Watch whatever you wanna watch, but leave the guys who actually understand the excitement of this part of the sport alone.

 

[Glaurung]

Could get solved way easier: get rid of any works effort in LMP1 aswell. We have a quite healthy privateer field already and I can only assume that some LMP2 teams would make the jump over to LMP1 if they could have a proper chance at winning races. Unpopular opinion though.

A full privateer LMP1 grid could be a solution, but it's not feaseable, unless FIA do not ban Toyota, the only manufacturer that is currently involved.
I don't believe the Hypercar Prototype regulations will be any beneficial to attract others manufacturers, because the costs would be high the same as LMP1 and the aesthetic similarity with a multi-milion hypercar being the only benefit compared to modern prototype, eventually too little benefit compared to the costs considering how a poor showcase the WEC is becoming.

 

[Will Mazeo]

If they want a strong privateer P1 just adopt DPi and give it a bit more power, then customer cars will be sold.
IMO Ford leaving the talks was just their play to make it happen because this is the only formula that will do what Ford wants (a top level car that can compete in IMSA and WEC with no changes), the supercar formula is nice but wont be as cheap as a DPi

 

[Richard Dastardly]

DPi are still LMP2 chassis, no good until you allow open chassis homologation ( WEC works teams aren't going to run someone else's chassis ) - and that with a bigger engine gives you privateer LMP1 anyway. They should have switched to the new "cheap" hybrid pack this season & worried about dressing up cars later on, that'd give a couple of years to test the less understood system.

 

[Nico]

Feel bad for the #7 chaps. They simply won't get the chance to fight #8 for the championship. And we all know why.

F1's hegemony is killing motorsports.

 

[Ole Marius Myrvold]

How do you figure?

When my '06 Honda Civic got the same MPG as a Prius that did not mean the Civic was cheating. It merely meant that the Prius and Civic were dissimilar vehicles that got the same MPG result.

Toyota should not get a "break" in mileage just because they are a hybrid, they should earn any advantage they have. To have the ACO/FIA grant them an advantage, for anyone to expect that they should have an advantage is not only disingenous but harmful in that it builds false expectations around the technology.

Your comment does just this, just as any claims that a Prius got better MPG than other cars because it was a hybrid.

If racing series are going to artificially grant advantages for new tech then would it not be logical to conclude that the new tech is not as superior as people would have us believe? Your comment seems to support this conclusion, thus it would make me think that hybrid systems are not as good as claimed and actually need assistance to be able to compete with a system that is, in your thinking, archaic.

Toyota should be able to compete with all things being equal. This means that if Rebellion figures out a way to get better mileage out of an totally ICE vehicle, so much so that they beat Toyota, then it is not Rebellion's fault they are better, it is Toyota's fault that they are pushing a system that cannot compete, and demand that they race in a series that will allow them advantages so they win.

And sell a less than optimal system to the public as a superior system.

The attitude of the ACO/FIA, and quite frankly, the attitude shared by you and many others, that hybrid systems should receive advantages, merely tries to sell the idea to the consumer that even though the technology is found wanting we should embrace it anyway. At all costs, even if it means artificially skewing race results to garner the results that people think should reflect current political views.

I would like the ACO/FIA, and supporters of hybrid/electric technology over ICE, to do us a favor: Stop manufacturing results, and supporting results, that ultimately harm the advancement of alternative power sources, just to "show" that your pet power source is superior.

Clearly it is not if artificial limitations are placed upon older tech, just to "prove" the superiority of new tech.

Ok, here is the deal.
For non-hybrids to be able to get the same power and thus theoretically the same speed as Toyota, they need a higher fuel flow. This in turn means that they use more fuel, and they've also been granted permission to use a bigger fuel tank than Toyota.
My comment was quite simplistic indeed, as the issue here is quite simple.
If non-hybrids shall get speed parity, they need to use more fuel than Toyota.

If the rules had been "All LMP1 cars will have a 60l fuel tank". Toyota would've gone much longer than the privateers before a stop. As it is, the privateers are allowed 52.9kg of fuel, while Toyota are allowed 35.1kg. At the same time, Toyota is only allowed 80kg/hour as maximum fuel flow, where the privateers are allowed 115kg/hour. This means that the Toyota will last a shorter time if both classes are running at max fuel flow at all times. However, the hybrid system means that Toyota doesn't do this. And will be able to stretch the same amount of fuel longer at the same speed.
In fact, Toyota got their fuel allowance reduced for this season from 44.1kg to 35.1kg in a bid to reduce stint length from 14 to 11 laps at Le Mans.

Stint lengths in endurance racing is a bad thing. However - ACO have actually taken measures to make Toyotas stints shorter, they are not doing it to give hybrid tech a good image. They have closed stint lengths together - If it had been like it should've been, completely free when it comes to length, the privateers would have to sacrifice speed to go longer, which would put them further back from Toyota in pure speed.

I think you've misunderstood my initial post.

My point was noone can fight on fuel strategy even if they wanted to, because of fixed stints and the fiddling they did to pitstops. Hybrids really should have all the advantages because for endurance races they make crazy sense, I just don't think they should even have been let in LMP1 until the tech was more accessible - then we wouldn't have even been here. Sadly I've such little faith in the ACO at this point that I just feel like I can guarantee the new regs aren't going to work like they want. It's not really the ACO's fault that VAG got themselves in such a mess, but they should really have had some sort of plan for this sort of situation after Audi left ( and Peugeot didn't even bother showing up in the first place ).

I wonder if Rebellion would have built a hybrid car if they'd brought forward the "anyone can buy anyone's hybrid system" to this season.

I agree with the fixed stints being wrong - it's endurance racing and strategy is a vital part.

 

[Will Mazeo]

DPi are still LMP2 chassis, no good until you allow open chassis homologation ( WEC works teams aren't going to run someone else's chassis ) - and that with a bigger engine gives you privateer LMP1 anyway. They should have switched to the new "cheap" hybrid pack this season & worried about dressing up cars later on, that'd give a couple of years to test the less understood system.

That's the point tho, you dont need to try to get works teams (they'll happen anyway).
If all manufacturers had to do to be in Le Mans was to give them an engine that would work a lot better than expecting work teams, would be cheaper too. And in the end I'm sure track owners would love to see that happening, why? Manufacturers invite a lot of people and give away tickets, the first year Audi left Le Mans there were huge empty areas at that race because their guests were no longer there.
They should give a break on the electric thing, or keep that for Garage 56 entries, let DPi be the main point for a few years to see where tech will go first.
Ford wants to build a DPi, Zak Brown wants McLaren to make one, another team was trying to get Hyundai to put an engine in the class too. This class only racing in the US gets by far way more possibilities than LMP1H, imagine if you put that at Le Mans. I'm sure some people would try to fit a couple of GT3 engines into those P2 chassis

 

[JayOTT]

Toyota should not get a "break" in mileage just because they are a hybrid, they should earn any advantage they have. To have the ACO/FIA grant them an advantage

Your argument is reasonable, but has a critical flaw in it. If you look into the details of the EoT, it's the privateers that are getting a huge break in mileage; http://www.dailysportscar.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/LMP1-EoT-Values-2018.pdf

45kg weight break, and a fuel tank that's almost 50% larger. And then for Silverstone, the naturally aspirated competitors (Rebellion/SMP) were made another 15kg lighter and given more fuel breaks, even compared to the turbocharged privateers.

ERS is just that good. I don't have a problem with Toyota being allowed to be 'slightly' faster since the privateers are already getting substantial breaks. The real problem is that we were promised a competitive LMP1 season, and have been fooled, bamboozled, flimflammed, led astray, taken for a ride by Toyota and their insistence that everything was fair and balanced. They're not just 'slightly' faster, and that's terrible.

 

[Zoltan76]

They have used GP2 engine!

 

[Jozsusz]

Toyota this season be like racing against the AI at the lowest difficulty level with all assists on.
What a joke

What a yoke!!!

 

[Ken Bell]

Well, whatever the politics, I was there and it was damn exciting. And NOISY!

 

[gamer19]

"Unwatch Thread"
check.

 

[2112]

Ok, here is the deal.
For non-hybrids to be able to get the same power and thus theoretically the same speed as Toyota, they need a higher fuel flow. This in turn means that they use more fuel, and they've also been granted permission to use a bigger fuel tank than Toyota.
My comment was quite simplistic indeed, as the issue here is quite simple.
If non-hybrids shall get speed parity, they need to use more fuel than Toyota.

If the rules had been "All LMP1 cars will have a 60l fuel tank". Toyota would've gone much longer than the privateers before a stop. As it is, the privateers are allowed 52.9kg of fuel, while Toyota are allowed 35.1kg. At the same time, Toyota is only allowed 80kg/hour as maximum fuel flow, where the privateers are allowed 115kg/hour. This means that the Toyota will last a shorter time if both classes are running at max fuel flow at all times. However, the hybrid system means that Toyota doesn't do this. And will be able to stretch the same amount of fuel longer at the same speed.
In fact, Toyota got their fuel allowance reduced for this season from 44.1kg to 35.1kg in a bid to reduce stint length from 14 to 11 laps at Le Mans.

Stint lengths in endurance racing is a bad thing. However - ACO have actually taken measures to make Toyotas stints shorter, they are not doing it to give hybrid tech a good image. They have closed stint lengths together - If it had been like it should've been, completely free when it comes to length, the privateers would have to sacrifice speed to go longer, which would put them further back from Toyota in pure speed.

I think you've misunderstood my initial post.

I understood your initial post, I just felt it was stated incorrectly. I know what the ACO/FIA have done to make the non-hybrids faster. I know they limited the fuel amounts and such. I also know that they have still given Toyota/Hybrids an advantage that is obvious despite protestations to the contrary. This advantage was clear at Spa, again a Le Mans and yet again at Silverstone.

The problem I have with the whole scenario is that the ACO/FIA have allowed the non-hybrids to race with the hybrid but have hamstrung the ability of the non-hybrids to the extent that they are not, in any sense of the word, competitive.

This does a few things:
1) It artificially sells hybrid tech as superior. The funny thing is that hybrids are, indeed, superior
but now their potential is hamstrung by rules that are, on the face, developed for equality.
Which leads us to:
2) The rules are not, in any way, equal between hybrids and ICE LMP's. We all know that the
ICE LMP's can be made to go much faster, run longer, etc...yet are forced by artificial means
to not do so. Lotterer complained about this after Spa in which the ICE LMP's were forced to
fuel saving mode from the start of the race. This, obviously, prevented them from being
competitive with the Toyota's.
Why? If the hybrids are, indeed, the better tech then let them run unrestricted and let the other
cars compete in the same manner. Hybrids should win. Which leads us to:
3) Who wants to watch hybrids win all the time? Well...If all the LMP's are hybrid then no one
cares. But if only one team is hybrid and the rules are massaged to give the impression that
the ICE cars have a chance, (but they really don't), then it is not racing. It is a sham that is
presented as racing, for the sole reason to hype hybrid tech at the expense of real racing.

I believe hybrid tech is superior but I also think we race fans are being sold a bill of goods at the expense of real racing. Just so a political statement can be made by people with an agenda.

This sham that is being perpetrated by the ACO/FIA is giving hybrid race technology a bad name, thus giving hybrid tech a bad name.

What happens when true electric cars start running in whatever iteration of the WEC exists? Are the remaining ICE and Hybrid vehicles going to be forced to sit in the pits for 20 minutes to replicate the time needed to re-charge an EV? How about force the ICE and hybrids to change fuel tanks every stop?

I have no problem with hybrids. I do have a problem with artificial means for equalization that do not equalize, and I have a problem with people who rationalize disengenuity as ok, as long as the results are as intended: A hybrid walks away.

 

[Richard Wilks]

It's interesting that we are talking about fuel flows, and how hybrids are so superior because of it, but nobody talks about how much the systems weight, and what would be the true impact in laptimes/efficiency if the non hybrids would have the weight equivalent of the hybrid system removed from them. I don't believe the current difference in weight is a reflection of how much could be gained if the systems would be totally removed.

 

[wombat999]

Dump the prototypes and just get on with the GT series.