Featured Toyota Disqualified from WEC Silverstone 6h – Rebellion Inherits Victory

Discussion in 'Motorsports' started by Paul Jeffrey, Aug 20, 2018.

  1. Paul Jeffrey

    Paul Jeffrey
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    Silverstone WEC Toyota Exclusion.jpg
    The #7 and #8 Toyota cars have been disqualified post-race at Silverstone, handing Rebellion Racing their first LMP1 WEC victory.


    Having cruised to a dominant one-two on Sunday afternoon at the home of the British Grand Prix, post-race scrutineering checks would conclude that for reasons of technical irregularities the Toyota TS050 Hybrids of race winners Fernando Alonso, Sebastien Buemi and Kazuki Nakajima, alongside second place pairing of Mike Conway, Kamui Kobayashi and Jose Maria Lopez should be disqualified from the final race results, removing both Japanese cars for the final positions and promoting the #3 Rebellion Racing of Gustavo Menezes, Thomas Laurent and Mathias Beche to an unlikely race victory, and the 25 championship points that go with it.

    Also benefitting from the Toyota exclusion would be the sister Rebellion and SMP Racing teams, promoting to second and third places on the podium respectively.

    Sunday at Silverstone would again be a dominant race for Toyota as both cars finished over 4 laps up on the privateer Rebellion squad, however come the usual post-race scrutineering checks carried out after each World Endurance Championship event, issues with the skid block deflection tests for both Toyotas would be identified, leaving the race stewards with no option but to exclude the manufacturer from the final classifications:

    “Although there are no reports of the car being involved in any specific incident, the competitor stated that his only explanation for the non-conformity must have been as a result of the car running off-track and sustaining some sort of damage to the internal stays that fix that portion of the car.

    "The stewards considered this possibility but determined that the design of the car must be able to withstand the normal rigors of a 6 hours’ endurance race.”

    The disqualification comes as a blow to Fernando Alonso, the Spaniard securing his third straight race victory as the #7 looks to extend its championship lead. Toyota have argued that the irregularity was the result of damage suffered mid race when both cars spent time running over the new and more substantial Silverstone curbing, and have not ruled out a potential appeal against the penalty:

    "The design and construction of the part concerned has not changed since its introduction at the beginning of the 2017 season. Since then it has successfully passed similar tests, most recently at Spa this season.

    "The team is now evaluating its next course of action."
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  2. Richard Dastardly

    Richard Dastardly
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    You missed the 91 Porsche - second place in GTE-Pro - also getting DQd for a ride height violation. That put the 67 Ford into 2nd & the other Porsche ( 92 ) onto the podium, so at least they were still on it. Aston managed 4th! but then the GTPro field was rather littered with incidents.

    Well done Toyota. You had a 3s a lap advantage over Rebellion, it's written into the rules that you can't lose on the track, and you still manage to throw it all away. 1s a lap would still have had you lapping everyone by the end of the race. 30 years of sportscar racing and you still work hard to lose. I don't hold out with the excuse they made that Silverstone's kerbing was to blame, why didn't it wreck everyone then? ( but then you're never at fault in racing ).

    Thankfully the sportscar news sites are sick of Alonso & started talking about Toyota as a unit again, it's well past time. Seb Buemi did as much seat time as the other two drivers in #8 added together yesterday.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
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  3. speedfreak75

    speedfreak75

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    Haha :laugh:
    It isn't competitive racing anyway if you can put 4 laps on your other opponents.
    Good to see that Toyota doesn't get preferential treatment like they did from the ACO.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
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  4. ME9Swe

    ME9Swe
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    Still doesn't hide the fact that Toyota are in another series right now while the privateers are consistently 2-3 seconds slower. Why cant WEC employ BOP for the toyotas like in LMGTE?

    Cant wait for the new hypercar Regulations so Toyota have some friends at the front

    Other than that WEC is at an all time low for me right now.
     
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  5. Richard Dastardly

    Richard Dastardly
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    They do, it's called EoT and it's a joke. Rebellion & SMP got a weight break before Silverstone that was supposed to give them laptime parity. They still can't compete on fuel and they're even more crippled by the new rules giving a maximum stint length, ie you get punished for being too economical in an endurance race!. So the simple answer is politics, and that usually means money.

    Noone has any idea what the new LMGTP will end up as, just a lot of wishful thinking from GT builders. I really get the feeling we're going to end up with DPi with the new hybrid package stuffed into them in about 2022 at this rate.

    This season is reminding me of 1993-1994 when Group C was in it's last gasp & everyone tried to prop sportscars up with GT - certainly yesterday just like every other race this year the GTs were the real entertainment ( and IMO GT-AM; the #90 TF Aston & #56 Project 1 Porsche were glued to each other the entire race, I don't think they were ever more than a couple of secs apart until the end ). I really don't want to see prototypes in another dead period while the ACO scrabble around to come up with a decent formula & the FIA start wrecking GT formula again - LMP2 is fairly popular right now but I feel it's quite brittle.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
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  6. JayOTT

    JayOTT

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    3rd race in a row now where the results have been changed after the fact. This is becoming a huge problem for WEC as the races really should be won and done on the track.

    Toyota deserved to be disqualified, though not necessarily for the reasons stated. The skid block rule is still stupid. But remember when the ACO told the privateers:
    Toyota has repeatedly misled the ACO by claiming that there's parity, only to go 1.5-2 seconds faster than the best privateer in qualifying (4 seconds at Le Mans). That is consistently larger than the target margin of EoT. But of course when they do it, it's perfectly acceptable because *BLEEP* privateers that's why.

    Between all of the post-race result changes and the EoT being way off, WEC is squandering it's chances to build a bigger fanbase in the wake of open wheel racing shooting itself in the foot.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
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  7. Koen Verlinde

    Koen Verlinde

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    Well the rules are there for everyone, but it's getting ridiculous how teams try to circumvent them. Certainly for Toyota who are 2-3 seconds per lap quicker. Did they really need to take this risk?

    They shot themselves in the foot, but in the end the only thing that happens from this is that Toyota will not win every race of the championship.
     
  8. Warren Schembri

    Warren Schembri

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    Toyota is faster than everyone else by 2-3 seconds per lap.
    And WEC calls this the Super Season....
     
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  9. Ole Marius Myrvold

    Ole Marius Myrvold
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    Toyota should have an advantage when it comes to fuel, if not, there is zero point in having a hybrid system. The goal should be to get the fastest privateers and the Toyotas to be as fast over one lap, as Toyota will have a fuel advantage, pit-stop advantage, traffic-negotiation advantage and in-race battle advantages.

    However, after Le Mans the guaranteed time-advantage that Toyota would get, have been removed.
    I still feel they should go back to prologue EoT and then work from there, at least it seemed like it was quite close back then.
     
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  10. guidofoc

    guidofoc
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  11. LeSunTzu

    LeSunTzu
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    Toyota did not take any risk. Drivers raced like they should. Toyota underestimated the degradation of the skid block on a renovated track, end of story.

    EoT may not be good, but at the end of the day a full factory effort will always lead to a better, faster car than privateers. Easy to criticize Toyota, but they have not defected like Audi and Porsche and they keep some life into LMP1.

    By the way it was a rather dull race in the other classes as well. A proper BoP does not guarantee a breathtaking show.
     
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  12. ChaosZeroJK

    ChaosZeroJK

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    Alonso quit F1 because he thinks it's "boring and predictable" and that "by the first winter testing session, you already know who's going to win the championship" so his brilliant solution to the problem was to move to yet another championship that is just as "boring and predictable" as F1 allegedly is.

    Yes, the race from 3rd place O/A onwards was great to watch (and the 4 hours race from the ELMS on saturday was just as great) as they always are, but by the end of the 6 hours race, the winning #8 car was 4 laps ahead of the 3rd place car, with the #7 being 3 laps ahead.

    But winning by a 4-laps margin isn't apparently "boring and predictable".

    I'm not bashing Toyota for their lack of competition, afterall it's not their fault Peugeot ran out of money (not so long ago, they sold 4 of their LMP1 cars to privateers to be used in historic events, including the stillborn 90X, the hybrid car that never raced), Nissan were a joke and quit after 1 race and a pathetic showing and Audi/Porsche were forced to quit because VW couldn't afford to keep 2 factory programs with a €21.000.000.000 fine over the dieselgate scandal.

    Just Alonso being inconsistent as always. Everything is great as long as he wins, the moment he doesn't, the sport must suck.

    In regards to this race, I tend to believe the official version of the story, that they made a mistake and didn't think they would have ride height issues. Because they have no competition, so there isn't a point in cheating even further, other than perhaps bragging about how many times they can lap the entire field, including the other 10 or so cars in their same class.
     
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  13. dcollins22585

    dcollins22585

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    If I was Toyota I'd pull my cars from the series.
     
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  14. LoeVG

    LoeVG

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    @Ole Marius Myrvold ,

    With that logic, Toyota should be in a class by itself "lmp1h" and not be racing against the privateer lmp1 teams. The hybrid system is a great boost in performance compared to the teams without hybrid. Yes, it's there to promote fuel savings, but it's main purpose is to boost performance.
     
  15. gamer19

    gamer19

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    Meh.. Alonso is just bad luck. Shame for the guy, he have quite unique personality.
    He better quit racing from every category and start lobbying for job at SKY or BBC. :geek:
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
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  16. LeSunTzu

    LeSunTzu
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    The win in LMP1 was decided by a steward order to change the rear of the first Rebellion. And before that there was less of a fight between both Rebellions than between both Toyotas. SMP were nowhere.

    In LMP2 there was no fight either. Jackie Chan Racing decided to freeze the positions 1 hour before the finish and Jaafar never had a chance to challenge Ho Pin Tung. Others were far. Dull as well.

    In GTAm the win was decided by a couple of huge penalties delivered to the leading cars. Not much of a battle there in the last two hours.

    GT Pro was better, as always. It is always the tree that hides the forest when the other categories do not offer much of a fight, in WEC or IMSA.

    My point is: to put the blame on the EoT for a quiet race is not right. It is just the way racing is sometimes.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
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  17. Ole Marius Myrvold

    Ole Marius Myrvold
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    No they shouldn't, not if ACO actually manage to get the non-hybrids up to the one-lap speed of Toyota.

    Compare it to F1 before cylinder rules were put in place. You had V8, V10, V12's. All with different advantages and disadvantages. Of course, it didn't take long to realize that with 3.0l engines that V10 was the way to go, but all engines had their own advantages. This is the same for LMP1. Hybrids have advantages, yes, of course, they get a performance boost, but also, they do get to stretch the stints, they do get traffic advantages. However, it is a more complicated system, there are more parts than can break, there is a higher chance for issues (granted, the way the privateers are racing in early parts of the season, it doesn't look that way).
    However, ACO needs to get the privateers up to the one-lap pace of Toyota, then there is a real chance of an upset if Toyota gets a small issue.

    Unrelated, it's still frustrating that F1 got the obligatory V10 engine rule. Toyota planned to enter F1 with a radical take on the V12 engine in 2001, and after they had paid the entry fee for 2001, they was told that V12's would be banned. So they had to start with a V10 engine, and thus had to postpone their F1 debut for 2002. (And also having to pay 12 million USD for not being on the grid for 01)
    Also, Cosworth was in the process of developing a new V12 engine around these times while Honda were considering a V12 for 2000 as they could get higher revs, lower center of gravity with V12, but the engine length and torque issues kept them from going that route in 2000.
    Not that it would've mattered much as the FIA suddenly decided in January 2000 to mandate 10 cylinders.
     
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  18. tigermilk

    tigermilk

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    Is there something about Silverstone, endurance racing, and skid blocks? From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skid_block

    Andre Lotterer, Benoit Treluyer and Marcel Fässler, driving the #7 Audi Sport Team Joest R18 e-tron, were excluded from the 2016 6 Hours of Silverstone after finishing in first place. Post-race scrutineering determined that the skid block was less than the 20 mm dictated by FIA World Endurance Championship rules.
     
  19. 2112

    2112

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    How do you figure?

    When my '06 Honda Civic got the same MPG as a Prius that did not mean the Civic was cheating. It merely meant that the Prius and Civic were dissimilar vehicles that got the same MPG result.

    Toyota should not get a "break" in mileage just because they are a hybrid, they should earn any advantage they have. To have the ACO/FIA grant them an advantage, for anyone to expect that they should have an advantage is not only disingenous but harmful in that it builds false expectations around the technology.

    Your comment does just this, just as any claims that a Prius got better MPG than other cars because it was a hybrid.

    If racing series are going to artificially grant advantages for new tech then would it not be logical to conclude that the new tech is not as superior as people would have us believe? Your comment seems to support this conclusion, thus it would make me think that hybrid systems are not as good as claimed and actually need assistance to be able to compete with a system that is, in your thinking, archaic.

    Toyota should be able to compete with all things being equal. This means that if Rebellion figures out a way to get better mileage out of an totally ICE vehicle, so much so that they beat Toyota, then it is not Rebellion's fault they are better, it is Toyota's fault that they are pushing a system that cannot compete, and demand that they race in a series that will allow them advantages so they win.

    And sell a less than optimal system to the public as a superior system.

    The attitude of the ACO/FIA, and quite frankly, the attitude shared by you and many others, that hybrid systems should receive advantages, merely tries to sell the idea to the consumer that even though the technology is found wanting we should embrace it anyway. At all costs, even if it means artificially skewing race results to garner the results that people think should reflect current political views.

    I would like the ACO/FIA, and supporters of hybrid/electric technology over ICE, to do us a favor: Stop manufacturing results, and supporting results, that ultimately harm the advancement of alternative power sources, just to "show" that your pet power source is superior.

    Clearly it is not if artificial limitations are placed upon older tech, just to "prove" the superiority of new tech.
     
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  20. Richard Dastardly

    Richard Dastardly
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    My point was noone can fight on fuel strategy even if they wanted to, because of fixed stints and the fiddling they did to pitstops. Hybrids really should have all the advantages because for endurance races they make crazy sense, I just don't think they should even have been let in LMP1 until the tech was more accessible - then we wouldn't have even been here. Sadly I've such little faith in the ACO at this point that I just feel like I can guarantee the new regs aren't going to work like they want. It's not really the ACO's fault that VAG got themselves in such a mess, but they should really have had some sort of plan for this sort of situation after Audi left ( and Peugeot didn't even bother showing up in the first place ).

    I wonder if Rebellion would have built a hybrid car if they'd brought forward the "anyone can buy anyone's hybrid system" to this season.
     
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