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The SimFeedback-AC DIY Motion Simulator thread

diablo2112

100RPM
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Dec 1, 2016
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The official SFX documentation specifically allows aquisition of these parts from a printing service, which I offer as an option. You can still print your own, or choose any online service you wish. I'm happy to print parts for those builders that would prefer to order their parts rather than learn the involved hobby of 3D printing.

A commercial service screwed up my print order early in my SFX build (see below). At the price I charge (cheaper than any commercial service), I'm not really making any money, either. For those that prefer to print their own, I've already provided extensive guidance to a number of other builders, including several real-time chat sessions in which I've helped them tune prints and generate the proper G-code (for eliminating the Z-seam on the motor mount, for example).

Thank you for your concern.
 
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Wmacky

100RPM
Nov 10, 2018
248
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I'm just a user, but have to say I had already thought the same months ago. What would the difference between a print service that knows nothing of the SFX, and a print service that has built a SFX?


For a example. If the owner of a print service, that has been printing parts for a builders, were to learn about the SFX100, and decide to build one for himself, would he now be disqualified from offering parts?
 
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saxxon66

Micha
Premium
Nov 26, 2017
174
245
@diablo2112

You are not allowed to sell the printing parts as a kit. I got a notice you are selling them for 400 bucks.
This is forbidden by the license, it is free for all but for commercial use.
The license is very clear here I call it "Don't be a dig" license.
We are providing all this for free and do not want anyone to make money out of our work.

Please respect this license and our work.
 

diablo2112

100RPM
Premium
Dec 1, 2016
206
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This is from the official SFX-100 documentation (https://opensfx.com/3d-printing/#buy)

"Buy that printer
Unless you've got a really cheap place to print.

Some builders are lucky and have access to printing services cheap (friends) through to commercial quotes upto $900EUR to $1600AUD. You will need to make a “buy vs outsource” decision."

I'm not making money at my cost. And I'm certainly not selling parts as a "kit". I'm offering a print service.

You'll either need to remove these instructions from the build guide, or contact every 3D printing service, and tell them what special rules are required.

Thank you again. I'm happy to continue to provide a printing service to those that request it. I'm currently working off a backlog now.
 

wajdi

250RPM
Mar 5, 2012
406
294
43
@diablo2112

You are not allowed to sell the printing parts as a kit. I got a notice you are selling them for 400 bucks.
This is forbidden by the license, it is free for all but for commercial use.
The license is very clear here I call it "Don't be a dig" license.
We are providing all this for free and do not want anyone to make money out of our work.

Please respect this license and our work.
Why are you so rigid?
A lot of persons don’t have the 3D printer or don’t have the skill to do it or don’t want to buy one so why can’t they ask this service from someone else?
He doesn’t sell a complete SFX100 kit..., he only offer this service .
 
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RankBajin

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Aug 9, 2018
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I asked Diablo to print the necessary 3D parts for me.

I don't have a 3D printer and didn't want to go to the expense of buying a decent one, together with the hassle of learning to print (I know enough about 3D printing to know I'm not going to produce the necessary quality of parts in a hurry). The alternative would be either not build a SFX-100 rig or outsource the job to a printing service.

The reasons I asked Diablo to do them rather than some random 3D printing service is a) he is experienced in printing what is required, so I know they'll be correct and b) he's a member of the Sim community and not doing it for commercial gain, but simply covering his costs, which are a fraction of what a commercial service would charge. I'm sourcing everything else from the retailers listed in the shopping list so he's certainly not selling a kit.
 

sjb266

500RPM
Feb 13, 2016
687
496
I did a set of prints for @anton_Chez that totalled $100AUD in material cost... and $50 as a contribution to 3d printer cost as I had just purchased one for this project.. so I charged $150 AUD..

Charging $400 USD is taking the piss out of the licence agreement and a profit is 100% being made.

So for all you guys on @diablo2112 ‘s backlog for SFX100 prints.. you are being ripped off by a few hundred bucks if he tells you he’s “covering costs”...

You can make excuses all you want but the truth is you are trying to make a quick buck. This would be fine and even a good idea if it wasn’t prohibited by the licence agreement.

Have respect for the creator of this system guys.
 

anton_Chez

1000RPM
Jun 1, 2016
1,988
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I think we fail to account for the fact that the '400 bucks' value is not yet verified nor denied.

That said, I see no difference between parting with several hundred dollars for prints from a random service as opposed to the same amount from an experienced printer in this forum.

Simon printed my parts and his expertise has allowed my system to function without flaw for over 7 months. Clearly there is an advantage between using someone who knows that the prints are good enough for their intended use vs someone who prints them just to look OK, then end up forcing multiple rebuilds due to failure.

I understand the user license agreement, but have a problem with its interpretation and 'enforcement'. Does this mean that we can get prints from anywhere so long as someone using and SFX system doesn't make a single dollar (debatable considering the amount of time and wear and tear on the printer, potential failed prints, etc) from providing the same service?

I think that the feedback, level of interest and engagement from the community, the ability for experienced builders to help others while not asking a single thing from the creators directly in the process, is a pretty big advantage for the system to be able to flourish in the wild. Consider for a second that this thread had not existed, or in a much smaller scope. How many users have been helped and guided by others, just enthusiastic for the existence of the SFX-100 at all.

I would have expected a slightly more respectful response for each of our involvement in the success of this motion platform. Also, DM's exists and should be used for discreet grievances such as this one, apparently. If the need is felt to air the issue publicly, surely it deserves a private message as well.

Not trying to stir the pot, but let's look at this from a logical perspective. Respect works BOTH ways.
 

Lebois

10RPM
Jun 5, 2018
12
2
27
Hi ! Anyone could explain me how you can have surge and sway effects with this setup ?..
From my point of view, the 4 actuators can only provide roll pitch and heave...
 

metalnwood

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Premium
Sep 6, 2018
317
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Hi ! Anyone could explain me how you can have surge and sway effects with this setup ?..
From my point of view, the 4 actuators can only provide roll pitch and heave...
Correct, roll pitch and heave are all that can be provided but surge through this system is usually a change in pitch depending on the user how much they want to feel it.. So decelleration depending on how fast it is would be a pitch forward and accelleration a pitch backwards. It can feel convincing, although there is no G force for the latteral accelleration that would be happening in a real car.

Sway can also be convincing, I race in VR and I find sway more apparent than surge. It is simulated with a change in roll which will give you pressure in your seat on the sides as if you were going around a corner. It is very convincing to anyone that hops in and turns the wheel side to side like you are doing a warmup lap.

I have found a seatbelt tensioner with surge really good as well.
 

Rollux

10RPM
Apr 5, 2019
23
5
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In regard to the 3D printing, has anyone tried using a larger (0.6 or 0.8) nozzle? I am about start my prints, and as well as printing faster (2-4x) the thicker walls make the prints stronger so I was looking at using a larger nozzle, but thought I’d ask if anyone else has already done this and maybe a few setting tweaks they could offer?
 

diablo2112

100RPM
Premium
Dec 1, 2016
206
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I've done extensive testing of printing parts with a 0.6mm nozzle. I've blown through almost 3kg of filament fine tuning settings and making test parts. You need to change tons of settings to get decent results, about 50 of them in PruSlic3r.

Getting acceptable results depends a lot on your hotend, especially having a 40W heater (as opposed to 30W). Once you start trying to speed things up, other factors come into play, especially the limits on filament volumetric flow rate. Took quite some time to find the optimum here, and it's going to vary depending on your printer model. All results below are from a Prusa Mk3s. I have 2 of these printers, which helps a lot in tuning parameters.

Good stuff:
printing time reduced about a factor of 3 (matching stock SFX settings)
- 20% infill, 3mm top and bottoms, 2mm perimeters
printing time reduced about a factor of 2 (adjusted for increased strength)
- 30% infill, 3mm perimeters, 4mm top and bottoms

Bad stuff:
-Took forever to get decent settings and a lot of filament
-Part warping and bed adhesion a bigger problem; best results were still slightly bowed at the base
-Extraneous globs and ooze more prevalent. Retract settings much harder to tune.
-Cosmetic quality degrades considerably. z-seams and perimeter starts much more visible.

This last point is important. The cosmetics on these parts compared to a 0.4 nozzle suffer pretty dramatically. Here's a bunch of pics of the linear bearing mount comparing a 0.4 to 0.6 nozzle (both E3D nozzles) on a Prusa Mk3s printer. Ultimately, as a result of the cosmetic degradation, I abandoned trying to print faster with a 0.6 nozzle and am currently printing parts at 0.4mm

If you decide you'd still like to try a 0.6mm nozzle, I'll be happy to post the detailed settings required to get these results, and hopefully save you a few kg in filament and the week of time I spent tuning these.

Here's the comparison photos FYI:











 
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diablo2112

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Dec 1, 2016
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If you'd still like to try printing with a 0.6mm nozzle, here's a good compromise list of settings (using PruSlic3r and a Prusa i3 Mk3s printer). These parts print about 2.5x faster, have at least as thick exteriors as the standard settings, with some improved strength (mainly due to 30% infill and thicker interior walls).











 
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Wmacky

100RPM
Nov 10, 2018
248
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Ready to buy a seat for the P-1 - Hoping for some input from fellow P-1 / SFX builders..

Looking to buy a Corbeau FX1, either the standard or wide. I'm unfortunately a bigger guy at the moment, and leaning toward the wide version. I'm worried that it may be too wide for the P-1 and interfere with the rear actuators. Even with the outer seat dimensions listed it's hard to know not having the seat at hand. Making maters worse, my house / Sim room remodel is still 2 weeks from being finished, so the P-1 has not been assembled yet.

This makes it difficult to imagine how the various outer parts of the seat will interact with both the actuators and side mounted accessory's such as the shifter profile.mounts

I know the outside rear width of the P1 is 22". The regular FX1 is 22" at the widest, and the "Wide Fx1" is 24" at the lower widest. Now the bottom of the seat that attaches to the P-1 will be somewhat narrower, but it does not list that width?

Here are the seat ( outer) dimensions for both the regular, and wide FX-1 ( scroll to bottom) https://www.racing-seats-usa.com/corbeau-fx1.html?Wsm-section-filter=undefined#dimen


Any suggestions? If the wide seat if to big for the P-1, it would be very expensive to return, but it could be quite a while before the standard size FX1 would be usable for me. (dieting is slowwwwww)
 
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JohnnyV

100RPM
Premium
Jun 6, 2017
166
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@diablo2112 I also used a 0.6 mm nozzle for my parts.
But your layer height in that screenshot you shared is too large. You should never use a layer height larger than half your nozle size (so layer height <=0.3 for 0.6nozzle, <=0.2 for 0.4nozzle) if you want your part to be strong.
Strenght decreases rapidly when you're printing larger heights than half your nozzle, see

Furthermore, of course the bottom and top finish is going to look less pretty, but we dont see them in the sfx-100 parts, so it doesnt matter, we only see the sides and if you use 0.3 mm layers, it looks pretty (IMO)
 

diablo2112

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Dec 1, 2016
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@diablo2112 I also used a 0.6 mm nozzle for my parts.
But your layer height in that screenshot you shared is too large. You should never use a layer height larger than half your nozle size (so layer height <=0.3 for 0.6nozzle, <=0.2 for 0.4nozzle) if you want your part to be strong.
That's very, very old advice, from the beginning of 3D printing. Prusa recommends a layer height no more than 75% of nozzle diameter. Please note, the standard recommended 0.4mm nozzle at the recommended setting of a 0.25 layer height (and more than half) is about the same (62.5%) as printing a 0.4mm height with a 0.6mm nozzle (66%). The standard for fast printing with a 0.6mm nozzle is a 0.4mm layer height. Many, many printing guides, tutorials, and 3D print classes provide this recommendation.

Strength is not substantially impacted below a layer height of 75% of nozzle diameter. Adhesion between layers is a far more important factor in overall strength, and when printing with a larger diameter nozzle, many, many factors influence layer adhesion. Speed, hotend wattage, filament choice, fan speeds, print temperature, and bed temperature all have an impact on adhesion. Properly set, a good printer will print a 0.4mm layer with a 0.6mm nozzle with ease and no loss of strength.

And (a bit counter intuitively), the larger your extrusion diameter, the easier it is to insure good bed adhesion. The reason for this is the relatively less heat transfer from a larger diameter extrusion compared to a smaller diameter. Since larger extrusions cool more slowly, they have more time and more heat content to melt the previous layer and insure a good plastic braze (and thus, adhesion).

The total heat content in the extruded layer is a function of volume (which goes as the diameter squared), while the cooling rate is a function of extrusion surface area (which goes linearly with diameter). Cooling rate with time - which is a key factor in adhesion - decreases with increasing extrusion diameter, as the surface area/volume ratio increases as the extrusion diameter decreases. Hence, adhesion is a bit better with a larger nozzle all other things remaining similiar. FYI.
 
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saxxon66

Micha
Premium
Nov 26, 2017
174
245
@diablo2112

Also sowas ist bisher hier noch nie passiert, so viel Unverschämtheit und Respektlosigkeit. Ich bin Entsetzt.

Du selber hast von diesem Projekt stark profitiert und dir deinen eigenen Simulator bauen können und ausgerechnet aus dieser Möglichkeit versuchst du nun für dich selber Profit zu schlagen. Ohne uns wäre es dir überhaupt nicht möglich gewesen deinen Simulator zu bauen, denk mal darüber nach.
Da fehlen mir die Worte. Aber so ist die Welt nun mal …

Ich habe übrigens auch keine PM bekommen, in der von Dir um Erlaubnis gefragt wurde. Das nur neben bei.

Die Lizenz sagt ganz klar, dass die gewerblich Gebrauch der Informationen und Daten dieses Projektes nicht gestattet ist.
Gewerblich bedeutet, du bietest Dienstleistungen oder Teile an, die Daten oder Informationen aus dem Projekt verwenden und verlangst dafür Geld.

Egal wie spitzfindig man etwas auslegen möchte, ich danke das kann jeder verstehen. Die Frage ist nur, ob man es will.

Das ist ein Community-Projekt und wir wollen euch ermutigen euch selber einen 3D-Drucker zu kaufen und euren eigenen Simulator selber zu bauen. Es ist wirklich sehr einfach, die Teile sind nicht kompliziert zu drucken, die Drucker sind sehr günstig und bisher konnten wir jeden erfolgreich unterstützen seinen eigenen Simulator zu bauen.

Mittlerweile sind wir über 200 Leute über die ganze Welt verteilt.
Sollte euch es nicht möglich sein, die Teile selber zu drucken, so gibt es bestimmt jemanden aus unseren Community (zu der nicht diablo2112 gehört), der euch dabei unterstützt und euch die Teile druckt. Dabei gehe ich selbstverständlich davon aus, dass ihr denjenigen, der das für euch macht auch dafür großzügig belohnt und nicht nur die Materialkosten tragt.

Wenn ihr den Gedanken des Projektes weiter tragen wollt, dann geht nicht auf solche Angebote wie von diablo2112 ein, sondern fragt einfach hier nach Unterstützung.

Wir sind da um zu helfen!

**************************** English Version ***********************************

So this has never happened before, so much impudence and disrespect. I am horrified.

You yourself have profited a lot from this project and have been able to build your own simulator and from this very possibility you are now trying to make a profit for yourself. Without us you wouldn't have been able to build your own simulator at all, think about it.
I don't have the words. But that's the way the world is ...

I also didn't get a PM in which you asked for permission, by the way.

The license clearly states that the commercial use of the information and data of this project is not allowed.
Commercial means you offer services or parts that use data or information from the project and charge money for it.

No matter how subtly you want to interpret something, everyone can understand that. It's that simple.
The only question is whether you want it.


This is a community project and we want to encourage you to buy your own 3D printer and build your own simulator. It's really very easy, the parts are not complicated to print, the printers are very cheap and so far we could successfully support everyone to build their own simulator.

Meanwhile we have more than 200 people all over the world.
If it is not possible for you to print the parts yourself, there will certainly be someone from our community (which diablo2112 is not a member of) who will support you and print the parts for you. Of course I assume that you will reward those who do this for you generously and not only pay the material costs and some beers.

If you want to carry on the idea of the project, don't go into such offers as diablo2112, but simply ask for support here.

We are here to help!


Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator
 

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