Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software
- Thread starter Mr Latte
- Start date
Mr Latte
Premium
Both of those models were covered in this thread. The output character is a bit different for each (one with slightly better mid bass and the other better high frequency output) but the DAEX32EP-4 Thruster model is a bit better construction. Also with its 40W users are less likely to blow them with amps that have much more power. I considered it best to recommend to people just one unit to keep things simple.
Guys, listen.....
Do take care with volumes, you should not need much power from the amps, especially if you run your soundcard at max output and have these mounted direct to the seat. Having a 100w amp but using only about 20-30w of that is good for the longevity of the amp as well.
Heat
I think someone previously asked about these heating up, I found the Dayton Pucs to get warmer than these but I never tried them enclosed in a seat type cushion. It may be possible for someone to try these on "Correx Board" to form some sort of panel for a seat if they cannot stick exciters to the seat exterior.
Having spent another day reading even more of this thread and watching some YouTube videos I’m not sure the mini LFE is a good option for me to start out with , with the panging and cut outs without a dsp I think I’ll struggle .
back to the drawing board ..... I was evengoing to say sod it and just get the bigger LFE but 2 things stopped me ..... it’s out of stock literally everywhere ( new version inbound or just too popular ? ) and I need to be conscious of others in the house unfortunately , I fear the large BK will be too intrusive for everyone else ?
back to the drawing board ..... I was evengoing to say sod it and just get the bigger LFE but 2 things stopped me ..... it’s out of stock literally everywhere ( new version inbound or just too popular ? ) and I need to be conscious of others in the house unfortunately , I fear the large BK will be too intrusive for everyone else ?
Mr Latte
Premium
Simple point to make....
Their are many budget amps people can buy, none of these are made with "Tactile Usage" in mind or to be more accurate, are amps designed to constantly output low frequencies like a subwoofer or large cabinet driver. Ideally, we want amps that are well suited for that purpose as the demands tactile can place with constantly low Hz output are more than typical audio sources like music, games or video.
Wattage ratings also do not determine if an amp is necessarily better than another although having more wattage capability means on constant usage an amp can be running well below its max capacity. So for example, like using a 100w amp to power only 40W exciters. Not a 50w amp to power 40w exciters, one amp has clear headroom.
I recommended the Nobsound model, based on seeing several comparison videos of small affordable amps and they were getting good reviews. They have released several small amps in the last 5 or so years but I opted to recommend the newer model with more power and has a higher voltage power supply (not just 9V or 12V). Small amplifiers with (19V or 24V) power supplies could likely be able to power Buttkicker Mini lfe (4ohm) units as well.
Example:
Nobsound 24V (6 amp) Power Supply
It would be good to get a BK Mini lfe owner to confirm how well the NS20G with either 19V or perhaps better to then use the upgraded 24V power supply. The BK units need a sustained/minimum wattage to push the weight of the internal piston they have so additional power input to the amp is recommended.
Even on the Discord channel these may be factors people are not considering when buying a budget amp. Many of the cheap amps may not be that good for bass frequencies as audio itself is usually given from 20Hz - 20KHz. Tactile will drive your amp hard as well.
You do not need an amp with a "sub output" like a 2.1 model or one with bass/treble controls as on cheap amps they may not be that good anyways.
As an alternative but kinda overkill for the exciters but an amp that HAS been used for years by members in the community to power typical 50w-100w transducers and even the BK Mini lfe units.
Is the SMSL SA-98E that offers 160w with a 36V Power Supply.
Here
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Mr Latte
Premium
BK have been making these for years and years, its not changed and I dont see a new model replacing it.
I purchased several of mine from ebay and saved a small fortune. Either the BK Concert (2ohm) or the BK LFE (4ohm) can be found at times and still in good condition in many cases.
Shop around also online for your area as some places will charge more than others.
In UK & Europe they are also sold as "Fischer Amps"
If you are seeking to get the best effects immersion, then I would recommend to many people to consider enjoying the benefits of multi-channel exciters for a while on their own. As what, these can offer is excellent immersion and to consider, holding off a little while to spend a bit more to get the largest BK models with the recommended DSP based NXD amps.
Keep in mind regards tactile immersion, that 1x Large BK unit can be better than 4x BK Mini Lfe.
More depth and power to mono bumps or high energy/impact effects we seek to have are more impressive on a more capable single unit that 4 less capable and smaller units.
People have to look at it no different to moving up to a DD wheel or a professional set of pedals. Yes, it costs more but with it comes more enjoyment and higher level of performance.
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Thanks @Mr Latte that really helps put things into perspective....i think ill go your suggested route to start and go with 4-6 Exciters to get started....and then add something bigger/heavier as I progress on this journey ;-)
Or would it be any benefit adding something like one of the Rockwood BS301-L's or a Dayton BST-1 to expand my range a bit now ?
Or would it be any benefit adding something like one of the Rockwood BS301-L's or a Dayton BST-1 to expand my range a bit now ?
Mr Latte
Premium
All we need is a small group of people that have bought the exciters and stuck to the recommended amp/exciter combination that also have applied direct seat installation.
If we do that, we have something that tactile installations in the past NEVER usually have and that is a fixed hardware/installation configuration. By having this THEN we can test effects and know that everyone is going to feel pretty much the same sensations.
We can build the effects to suit this hardware and installation but do something that appears to be missing on the Discord channel. This is having a group discussion and people working together to give their own feedback and feel free to share if they want their own effects settings or examples.
I hope by the end of January to be in a position I am re-installing my own exciters and start a thread (assuming we have a small group of owners) that are willing and ready to participate themselves in a group discussion/tests.
It is hoped that this will be possible. Once others see the feedback early adopters have then I assume it being much easier decision for more people to try this concept. To be able to easily buy into affordable tactile hardware that already has high-quality effects pre-made but tested with members of the community.
How Many Units For Back Of Seat?
Ideally the back of the seat works very well with 3 stereo layers (shoulders/sides/lower spine)
A single pair or two pairs works fine but I think someone that starts with less than 3 may likely seek to quickly upgrade to more. 4x stereo sets is possible on the back. What it does is help immerse the user with more effects going into the seat using individual units/body regions. So we are reducing the number of effects each unit may be using for greater clarity and giving certain units their own roles.
What is possible with this, is we then combine effects into these channels in a clever way. This would be pairing effects that are not constantly operating at the same time. So again we reduce the tactile muddle when multiple effects are trying to be output on a single unit together.
Furthermore, the benefit of having 2,3,4 stereo pairs lets a user have increasing or decreasing positional effects. I have done some experimentation with effects that can have an effect start at the bottom of the seat, then gradually move up as the intensity increases. We can craft settings that help control this and such could be combined with pedals as well.
Possible usage scenarios would be feeling, acceleration or braking energy move through the seat and up/down the back of the seat as the braking or acceleration force increases. Yet with each pair of channels we can even have varation in the felt output (this does not have to be static or just duplicated from channel - channel).
Exploration
Underneath the seat base is also something that some can and likely will experiment with. I can't do that with my own seat (with exciters) but keep in mind how a "GS5" seat or "Tactile Seat Pad" uses channels in the seat base and back regions.
Example:
It is very easy for us to duplicate this with tactile feedback using Shakeit placing whatever effects we want to whatever channels and each with their own volume/output controls.
As said many times, we have much more flexibility and creative options for controlling/delivering effects with this "Concept" than with any other tactile solution.
If we do that, we have something that tactile installations in the past NEVER usually have and that is a fixed hardware/installation configuration. By having this THEN we can test effects and know that everyone is going to feel pretty much the same sensations.
We can build the effects to suit this hardware and installation but do something that appears to be missing on the Discord channel. This is having a group discussion and people working together to give their own feedback and feel free to share if they want their own effects settings or examples.
I hope by the end of January to be in a position I am re-installing my own exciters and start a thread (assuming we have a small group of owners) that are willing and ready to participate themselves in a group discussion/tests.
It is hoped that this will be possible. Once others see the feedback early adopters have then I assume it being much easier decision for more people to try this concept. To be able to easily buy into affordable tactile hardware that already has high-quality effects pre-made but tested with members of the community.
How Many Units For Back Of Seat?
Ideally the back of the seat works very well with 3 stereo layers (shoulders/sides/lower spine)
A single pair or two pairs works fine but I think someone that starts with less than 3 may likely seek to quickly upgrade to more. 4x stereo sets is possible on the back. What it does is help immerse the user with more effects going into the seat using individual units/body regions. So we are reducing the number of effects each unit may be using for greater clarity and giving certain units their own roles.
What is possible with this, is we then combine effects into these channels in a clever way. This would be pairing effects that are not constantly operating at the same time. So again we reduce the tactile muddle when multiple effects are trying to be output on a single unit together.
Furthermore, the benefit of having 2,3,4 stereo pairs lets a user have increasing or decreasing positional effects. I have done some experimentation with effects that can have an effect start at the bottom of the seat, then gradually move up as the intensity increases. We can craft settings that help control this and such could be combined with pedals as well.
Possible usage scenarios would be feeling, acceleration or braking energy move through the seat and up/down the back of the seat as the braking or acceleration force increases. Yet with each pair of channels we can even have varation in the felt output (this does not have to be static or just duplicated from channel - channel).
Exploration
Underneath the seat base is also something that some can and likely will experiment with. I can't do that with my own seat (with exciters) but keep in mind how a "GS5" seat or "Tactile Seat Pad" uses channels in the seat base and back regions.
Example:
It is very easy for us to duplicate this with tactile feedback using Shakeit placing whatever effects we want to whatever channels and each with their own volume/output controls.
As said many times, we have much more flexibility and creative options for controlling/delivering effects with this "Concept" than with any other tactile solution.
Mr Latte
Premium
You can get a benefit with the Mini lfe now and use it for increased bass/energy for various effects. It is something that is very easily sold or incorporated to a shifter or other region of the rig if you want.
The Mini lfe has more punch than ADX/Reckhorn/Rockwood/Monacor units and you should have better control of its piston pang if you are using less effects for it (as we are doing with this concept anyways). Then keeping the output/intensity of those effects you do use it for below the point that it causes the piston pang.
Yes by all means if a user seeks more (fine tuning) and control of their tactile then DSP is a major benefit.
It is possible to bring this to a standard amp very affordably and you can check out the free to use software from this link example below.
Similar hardware is used often in (car audio installation) and may be available in different regions. Lots of people also use a combination of microphone room analysis software with DSP controls to fine-tune audio to their room acoustics and speaker/subs used.
Link Additional DSP Option
Different models are available but the software link is on that page.
Another is the Mini DSP as an alternative but prices start to rise and it illustrates why the Behringer iNuke and now NXD amps are such good value with their own included DSP controls buit in. It is also really more beneficial to higher-end users getting into the larger BK units as with these when well-tuned and with well-crafted effects they REALLY do perform sooooo, much better.
The truth is, the vast majority of owners with even the largest BK units installed to their rigs are not properly controlling or using them in such ways. Anyone serious about "Home Cinema" and subwoofer performance wll control their subs in such ways. Why then should a user seeking a high quality tactile/racing cockpit not do likewise with the bass control for their tactile?
Let me say, tuning and control are important if you seek the best immersion.
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Ok im completely happy to get involved in this.....i could get to 4 stereo pairs , 2 on the back and 2 on the bottom which should give us opportunity to replicate the diagram you posted ? Do you think that would be useful / worth starting with for this ?
That r.racks mini looks interesting also......would i need just one of those for 4 stereo pairs ?
Im still building my rig/ordering parts so I wont be fully ready to end of January anyway.
That r.racks mini looks interesting also......would i need just one of those for 4 stereo pairs ?
Im still building my rig/ordering parts so I wont be fully ready to end of January anyway.
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All we need is a small group of people that have bought the exciters and stuck to the recommended amp/exciter combination that also have applied direct seat installation.
If we do that, we have something that tactile installations in the past NEVER usually have and that is a fixed hardware/installation configuration. By having this THEN we can test effects and know that everyone is going to feel pretty much the same sensations.
We can build the effects to suit this hardware and installation but do something that appears to be missing on the Discord channel. This is having a group discussion and people working together to give their own feedback and feel free to share if they want their own effects settings or examples.
I hope by the end of January to be in a position I am re-installing my own exciters and start a thread (assuming we have a small group of owners) that are willing and ready to participate themselves in a group discussion/tests.
It is hoped that this will be possible. Once others see the feedback early adopters have then I assume it being much easier decision for more people to try this concept. To be able to easily buy into affordable tactile hardware that already has high-quality effects pre-made but tested with members of the community.
How Many Units For Back Of Seat?
Ideally the back of the seat works very well with 3 stereo layers (shoulders/sides/lower spine)
A single pair or two pairs works fine but I think someone that starts with less than 3 may likely seek to quickly upgrade to more. 4x stereo sets is possible on the back. What it does is help immerse the user with more effects going into the seat using individual units/body regions. So we are reducing the number of effects each unit may be using for greater clarity and giving certain units their own roles.
What is possible with this, is we then combine effects into these channels in a clever way. This would be pairing effects that are not constantly operating at the same time. So again we reduce the tactile muddle when multiple effects are trying to be output on a single unit together.
Furthermore, the benefit of having 2,3,4 stereo pairs lets a user have increasing or decreasing positional effects. I have done some experimentation with effects that can have an effect start at the bottom of the seat, then gradually move up as the intensity increases. We can craft settings that help control this and such could be combined with pedals as well.
Possible usage scenarios would be feeling, acceleration or braking energy move through the seat and up/down the back of the seat as the braking or acceleration force increases. Yet with each pair of channels we can even have varation in the felt output (this does not have to be static or just duplicated from channel - channel).
Exploration
Underneath the seat base is also something that some can and likely will experiment with. I can't do that with my own seat (with exciters) but keep in mind how a "GS5" seat or "Tactile Seat Pad" uses channels in the seat base and back regions.
Example:
It is very easy for us to duplicate this with tactile feedback using Shakeit placing whatever effects we want to whatever channels and each with their own volume/output controls.
As said many times, we have much more flexibility and creative options for controlling/delivering effects with this "Concept" than with any other tactile solution.
Building a 3 layer setup will change the cost dramatically.
In my head, as the first step im planning to buy very simple parts as I mentioned in the previous reply - two 32mm tactile and a small amplifier
Such setup won't be enough to bring more life to the simulator?
Mr Latte
Premium
I can't tell you where you may prefer to install the units you get.
What I can say is that I am likely going to end up with 3x stereo pairs on the back of my own seat and 1 pair sending tactile to under my knees/legs. The base of the seat is where we introduce the BK units and as they are outputting lower Hz with higher wattages and more bandwidth their energy travels more over the whole seat. Regardless if the seat uses seat rails or seat risers.
Keep in mind, most seat riser supports transmit their energy only by 4x bolts that connect the seat to the actual seat risers. So what happens if a user installs 2x or 4x exciters to underneath the seat base on a bucket type tub seat? It gives them the control to apply specific effects to a "body region" or to combine an effect to operate in more than one "body region" at a time for more immersive spread of that effect with a maintained volume. Kinda in the same way/example given as a "GS5" seat if you want a specific effect to operate over the whole seat, for example, say "large bumps".
You should be able to detect better various effects over your sides/shoulders/spine than those in your buttocks. Also as the legs are often raised above the end of the seat, (note my rig will have special under knee supports) to let me experiment with trying different effects to this region. In previous tests with body regions, I did find it useful as it is a sensitive area. Two may be enough for the bottom of the seat but Im keen to hear of anyone experimenting with bucket seats.
DSP Limitation
Ahh, you have to realise the DSP works from only 2 input channels even though it can be output to 4. It supports 4 outputs as a user could tune Hz for a sub and standard speaker. You could use this to tune a BK and an Exciter also but in the sense of a "Channel" in the same effects are going to both the exciter and BK unit but the DSP filtering what Hz from the effects on this channel being routed to each unit. It uses the same principle I use for "Dual Role" in combining/controlling a BK to work with a TST unit.
I am using Behringer DSP via my amps for all TST & BK units my rig will use but I am not using DSP on the exciters. We can place the exciters all on its own soundcard and then use the soundcards EQ to output only low Hz and this should be fine for most people. If desired, the HA6000 does bring more potential to increase the sensation of felt bass in effects with its easily adjusted Bass controls. Excellent to just adjust on the fly to your preference for different sims and in the moment tweaking without having to go in and adjust slider settings in the software.
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Mr Latte
Premium
Such can be done over time if the user feels they will want to.
Tactile even via a single unit if it uses nice effects is ALWAYS a great addition to immersion over having a rig with none. It brings your rig alive to feel effects "you want" represented. Be this engine rpm or bumps or wheelslip as examples.
Lots of people started with a single Buttkicker or other units which also can cost a lot more than the recommended hardware or the concept being shared.
I can say with confidence that those that spent a fair amount of money on 4x BK Mini lfe or other units for a Simvibe based CM configuration, which wastes much of its energy. This "Concept" can bring more efficient and better tactile immersion for less money.
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Nearly any tactile you add brings more life to a simulator, for sure. I have the Mini LFE's and the exciters and using the new big unit profiles posted in Discord, it still feels pretty good. Little more grainy and deep than the other profiles I've been using for ages from Mr Latte. I've not changed back yet.
Mr Latte
Premium
Personally I would add to the sides to start with.
This way the 2 units are positioned to let energy disperse to shoulders and spine and then the bottom of the seat.
ebay/amazon will have 3M or velcro sticky pads that would allow you to apply/remove and re-stick somewhere else. With the standard 3M application once you remove them a couple of times they may need replacement sticky pad added.
Thanks @Mr Latte for your answer.
Another 2 questions :
1 - Have you tested the dayton DAEX32EP-4 under the seat cushions or simply placed outside the seat?
2 - I have 4 buttkicker gamer 2 placed on the 4 corners of my cockpit. Knowing that they work under 2 ohms, which amplifier would be the best adapted ?
- t.amp TSA 4-700 (https://www.thomann.de/fr/the_tamp_tsa_4_700_b_stock_2.htm)
- Behringer NX3000D (https://www.thomann.de/fr/behringer_nx3000d.htm)
- Behringer NX1000D (https://www.thomann.de/fr/behringer_nx1000d.htm)
.. or any of them!
Thanks in advance again for your reply.
Another 2 questions :
1 - Have you tested the dayton DAEX32EP-4 under the seat cushions or simply placed outside the seat?
2 - I have 4 buttkicker gamer 2 placed on the 4 corners of my cockpit. Knowing that they work under 2 ohms, which amplifier would be the best adapted ?
- t.amp TSA 4-700 (https://www.thomann.de/fr/the_tamp_tsa_4_700_b_stock_2.htm)
- Behringer NX3000D (https://www.thomann.de/fr/behringer_nx3000d.htm)
- Behringer NX1000D (https://www.thomann.de/fr/behringer_nx1000d.htm)
.. or any of them!
Thanks in advance again for your reply.
Mr Latte
Premium
I will get the BK Gamer attached at some point to let me build effects suited to the smaller BK units.
The problem with using the effects for the large units is you will be feeling the effects from the harmonics about an octave higher. Not so much the fundamental frequency used.
These dont feel the same, so we have to discover what the Hz limits are for best bass with the smaller BK mini units. What do users find?
Mr Latte
Premium
The tactile need something solid for the vibrations to work well with.
A cushion with a loose unit and then the body just sitting on this, I cant say how well that works.
Sometime ago SRG reviewed a product like this I thought looked rather unprofessional in quality terms (for its price) but it seemed to perform okay and it only used Dayton Pucs, not these better exciters. You can get seat pads with motors but these are greatly inferior in the Hz range they can output compared to the recommended exciters. SSW as the software is also limited and inferior in the options and level of control it offers to us for the effects while it can still give a user enjoyable tactile, we can do much more.
Some form of rigid/board or thin aluminium may be best and this under the seat cushioning and it supported with some isolators to help ensure the casing of the units are not being pressed with the users weight.
The Behringer amps with DSP will support 2,4,6,8 ohm units no problems.
The NX1000D will be fine but it is maybe asking a bit much for it to power the largest BK units. Though short term I have tried and it can be used. There is very little price difference in the 1000 Vs 3000 series. The 6000 series is overkill.
Of the older iNuke DSP series I have:
4x 1000 (8x TST units)
5x 3000 (10x Large BK units)
1x 6000 (reserve)
A long way to go with my own build yet, I need to get 8020 frame to begin the installation of my isolation solution and then bolting on the new tubing already purchased to get my seat fully installed and up and running.
Q.
Where in the UK or good EU supplier can I get BLACK 8020 as the same used for Simlabs cockpits?
I need a direct link, I haven't a clue regards all the variations of 8020 profile and also one that is suitable to add the SFX 100 which I want to do.
P.S I need cut to custom sizes
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