Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

@Mr Latte
https://www.thomannmusic.no/the_t.racks_dsp_4x4_mini.htm
Would this be any good for someone without dsp on there amps? I got nu1000 anf nu3000 without dsp

Andy, that product seems excellent price but do think it needs an additional 12V power supply. Even then, for adding DSP controls with features like PEQ and Crossover to a normal amp it seems a bargain. The question is if it enables different settings to be used for each input/output or if it is limited to only one active range of settings being applied over 1-4 channels? A user with our case scenarios may want different settings per channel depending on the role or model of unit being used on that channel.

I have mentioned/shared other DSP boxes from Dayton and Reckhorn in the past but they typically cost more. Seems as a 12V unit it is also designed to be used in cars. I think a brand called Mini DSP does a similar product but not with 1/4" jacks.

To be clear for others it's a processing box and not a 4x channel amp.

@boern69
The amp I recommend the most for the larger BK units is the Behringer NX3000D.
It's available around the £220 mark but can be bought without the DSP features for around £165. My advice is to spend the extra and get the DSP but also do a fan mod to make them much quieter. So by the time connectors/cables are purchased it's almost £600 (the amp will power another however). Thats quite a lot to spend and why I would recommend people persure the adoption of the chosen exciters and what multi-unit installation benefits bring first.


Heres amp price Example

The large BK do appear on ebay at times and its possible to get them cheap as currently in UK/Europe they are quite expensive new, at @ £310. Yet only $240 in USA.
 
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Hi Mr Latte et all,

I have been looking for a suggested DIY budget-ish (fit for purpose) bass shaker set-up in simhub, YouTube and this forum.

There is a lot of information available but I am missing a sort of summary or conclusion. Also this specific forum also exist allready out of 73 pages. And the comments made normally in those pages are massive. So, even though I am enjoying the read. I am at a point where I spend some days on reading allready and I am still not anywhere near a decision. Can you maybe help me with this? For a description of my rig. See latest "show your rig" forum part.

Also. I am working on a pc hardware requirement list and this is in need of a different brand sound card correct? Any other specifics maybe?

Thank you!
 
Hi, well its a general discussion thread for hardware/software so it has various aspects about tactile in it. The thread was never really aimed at being a guide/summary of exactly what to buy or go for and target specific budgets. I have used the thread to show much of my own interests or things experienced and learned about tactile with a goal to push things further. Often yes people ask things, share their own experiences and builds or seek advice.

If you ask different people they will all likely give you different advice on how/what to start with. Like everything its all down to what budget you want to spend at this time and if you are after mainly just engine based effects or much more.

Personally I have dealt with a lot of PMs in the past (some go for many pages) but it all becomes too time-consuming and can be stressful. Also responding to various people with different questions and I'm not getting that involved again with other peoples builds.

Tactile needs a person to spend time to experiment and learn aspects of how audio and frequences work, its not really a plug in and play option. It requires tweaking and tuning.

Discovery & Testing Of Exciters
Recently, I have tried to get people to buy into the multi-exciter approach (shared here) to form a fixed platform using 6 units on the back of a seat. I am working on effects for this (for my own build) but also have had some people keen to get involved for testing and also experiencing these effects. In my view and comparing to other approaches, this would be a very good way to start and get into enjoying tactile.

As stated before, these effects and the experimentation I am doing with this approach are intended only for this type of configuration, with the recommended units. It's my own personal work for my own build that is being shared with these. So if someone wants to follow on this path based on my own studies/researching and testing of the recommended tactile its part of an ongoing journey.

What I am not doing is giving out these specific effects for people with all different types of installations and hardware. It will overcomplicate things and will not work as intended which I also want to avoid. The effects I am developing have many hours put into them and are built with the configuration and hardware my own testing has led me to go with. The idea is to form a basis that each person can experience and test using the same hardware/installation to present their own opinions on the created effects and help improve them or adapt for their own preferences.

I think perhaps this is a good way to let people be able to have a configuration that can be installed and will have effects that are tried and tested for it. Yet I can't force people to jump on board with this idea or concept. If desired people can later add additional/larger units for more immersion with specific effects and then also to pedals etc.This again following my own research and examples that will be shared. So, if you want to buy into this concept/approach and be part of helping test effects, then you as others are welcome.

I have coming, a thread on my own seat/build using this approach as a basis. Also on how we can take it a further step beyond the exciters advancing things much, much further than typical builds and typical tactile installations.
 
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Hi, thank you for your response.

I am not sure. I did notice you mentioning to someone that it was wise to mount it to the bucket seat I think.

I think I also want some small tactiles at the front though. (In case of v3's, which I am considering, than I have them standard) But, I am open for your suggestion, but my budget for this is really something like 300 euros. Is that manageable?
 
Hi, thank you for your response.

I am not sure. I did notice you mentioning to someone that it was wise to mount it to the bucket seat I think.

I think I also want some small tactiles at the front though. (In case of v3's, which I am considering, than I have them standard) But, I am open for your suggestion, but my budget for this is really something like 300 euros. Is that manageable?

6 x shakers = 78€
https://www.pollin.de/p/bass-shaker-640338

1 x AV receiver 7.1/5.1 multi-channel in = 60~100€ (just make sure it supports 4Ohms and 5.1 or 7.1 multi-channel analog input)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Samsung-...353788?hash=item48d0f4ddbc:g:YUcAAOSwDyldYkZA
or
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/B1425-So...496638&hash=item3fc66f6d14:g:LDAAAOSwBPJdGm05

1 x Audigy FX 5.1 = 34€
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Creative...165970&hash=item41feafad8d:g:KFsAAOSwNnFcrCNF

1 x license Simhub (donation)
https://www.simhubdash.com/


PS: The above, is my entire system (with the first AV receiver I posted)
 
Thank you Dan,

Is this meant for the same "seat subdivision method" as referenced by Mr Latte?
How can these transducers be mounted to the bucket seat? The Dayton's can be pasted on.

Regards,
Justin
 
These are big 100w shakers. I recommend 2 screws per shaker. If you cant drill small holes in the bucket seat, i'd go for the small daytons + one big shaker under the seat to compensate.
 
@JustinSj you have to decide what you think is the best option for you. As I said different people can and will make their own recommendations based on what they themselves own or have tested.

I merely am sharing findings I have come across in testing lots of different installation possibilities and various tactile hardware over the last 2 years. All I can highlight to you, is I want the best possible immersion from tactile and using multiple effects. I have sought after a way to bring it unlike conventional installations and push the boundaries in what we can get from it. I tested 6 different options in small tactile units and exciters before choosing what seemed best.

Let me be clear, the exciters and doing a multi-channel configuration for additional body zone contact and the benefits they bring is a crucial element needed to achieve that goal.

They are cheap, they are easy to install, they allow a user to easily get into tactile
We can and as I will demonstrate then expand what these bring with the benefits of adding the more expensive large BK or Earthquake units at a later time. This to then fully and properly utilise the lowest bass frequencies and build effects specifically for these to work in concert with the exciters and to also expand the number of usable effects.

Frequency Range & Detailing
From the extensive testing I did, the 40w exciter will outperform other exciters and most of the budget tactile when it is directly mounted to the seat. I expect anyone will be surprised by the energy they have with limited wattage and being so tiny. It is important to purchase the correct model and it has been shared on the forums here several times.

A unit being bigger or higher wattage with 50w or 100w does not specifically mean it will be better and also when we take into account how/where they are installed and their primary energy gets to the user. Many of the popular budget tactile have quite restricted output in their operating frequency range. As stated above by owners with 55Hz or 80Hz limits. The best units for detailing of mid-high bass are the exciters and also the TST models yet these are quite expensive. BK units are better for low-mid punch but not for detail over 60Hz range they start to drop off.

Important Factors
The more operating range we have in a unit, then the more definition we can place into different effects or use the wider range to give different effects their own sensations to help separate them. I have demonstrated how harmonics operate and even effects with low Hz also generate detail from harmonics to much higher frequencies.

Someone with a unit that is less capable in frequency range will not get the full potential detailing we can with the exciters and that's before we even take into account factors of direct installation to a body zone and then combining zones. This compared to an often larger budget unit, having to transfer its energy over a further path and that energy also dispersing to other places.

Controlling the flow of tactile energy is another "crucial factor" to getting the best out of the units installed. This and the de-coupling of seat/pedal platforms with using isolation are important factors in a tactile/rig build.

Amps
This thread covers many amp options from budget mini amps like Knobsound / SMSL to larger amps, to multichannel amps to AV Receivers. The Behringer EPQ304 is a good amp, small and been selling for years, so is a stable option but it isn't as quiet as I would like and will see to reduce its fan noise. Might someone prefer 2x mini amps like Knobsound or SMSL, maybe. Some other 4 channel options are available but we start to get into higher money and high wattages to power units that need very little wattage. The AV Reciever option is great value but how many people want the big sized amp (again to drive tiny exciters) and then having to learn/deal with all its onscreen menu options to alter/control channel volumes etc

Effects Experience & Combined Efforts
The main difference with the options you have is that the one I am recommending, you can have access to effects I am creating. The same I will apply on my own high-end build by using specifically the same installation method and same units. Therefore installing them is going to ensure users will get very nice quality effects, to the benchmarks I seek to enjoy.

You can of course, buy 2 or 4 units now and do your own thing to get into tactile. It's optional if you want to take part in my own experimentation and effects testing.

Already a limited few people have started with installing the 6 channel installation needed to their seats. I am sharing these beta effects currently within the last couple of weeks. I send them updates of new samples as well, based on feedback and we share/discuss their own inputs or applied changes. Some others are seeking to join in and are waiting on getting the hardware to have it installed. So gradually it seems some people are taking interest in this concept or approach.

*Note, for my own effects, six channels are needed to properly experience and use the effects being created. Some effects go to specific channels and we use them to separate the effects. Some effects use multiple channels at once for the body zones. Different approaches are being tested and seeking peoples feedback. Four channels is not enough if wanting to participate and use my own experimental effects.

 
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Hey all, just informing a bit about tactile feedback.

Is it possible to run 4 shakers wired in series? 2 front and 2 rear taking up 2 channels on an amplifier. Will I be able to feel the difference between Front Left and Front Right or will the shaking be the same on both sides since they are attached in series?

Then in the future I would like to add a single shaker to the back of my seat (on a seperate channel) for gearshifts and a shaker underneath the pedals (also on a seperate channel) for ABS.

So 6 shakers on a 4 channel amplifier. Is that possible? Will I need Simvibe or will Simhub's Shake It be sufficient?

Thanks in advance. I'm just informing, because I have a few questions before I start the project.
 
Hey all, just informing a bit about tactile feedback.

Is it possible to run 4 shakers wired in series? 2 front and 2 rear taking up 2 channels on an amplifier. Will I be able to feel the difference between Front Left and Front Right or will the shaking be the same on both sides since they are attached in series?

Then in the future I would like to add a single shaker to the back of my seat (on a seperate channel) for gearshifts and a shaker underneath the pedals (also on a seperate channel) for ABS.

So 6 shakers on a 4 channel amplifier. Is that possible? Will I need Simvibe or will Simhub's Shake It be sufficient?

Thanks in advance. I'm just informing, because I have a few questions before I start the project.

I believe SimHub is becoming the preferred choice these days. It should do what you need.

If you have two shakers attached to the same output channel on your amp, you'll get the same vibrations out of both... minus any differences due to them being mounted in different places, which can impact what you actually feel. But, the same signal is going to both.
 
Hey all, just informing a bit about tactile feedback.

Is it possible to run 4 shakers wired in series? 2 front and 2 rear taking up 2 channels on an amplifier. Will I be able to feel the difference between Front Left and Front Right or will the shaking be the same on both sides since they are attached in series?

Then in the future I would like to add a single shaker to the back of my seat (on a seperate channel) for gearshifts and a shaker underneath the pedals (also on a seperate channel) for ABS.

So 6 shakers on a 4 channel amplifier. Is that possible? Will I need Simvibe or will Simhub's Shake It be sufficient?

Thanks in advance. I'm just informing, because I have a few questions before I start the project.

If its a two-channel amp then you can achieve dual stereo and you could use front stereo channels in Simhub like normal stereo, just that the same activity will be with the front and rear stereo sets.

What you need to take into account is the ohm ratings the amp you are using supports and what the ohm ratings the units you are using will require based on how you wire them.

Info Here

Personally I would say stick with 2 units and stereo until you have a 4 channel amp or 2 amps to give you the ability to use 4 independent channels.
 
Behringer EPQ 304 - 4 Channel Amplifier
In reference to replacing the noisy fans this amp ships with.
The amp in UK can be bought for under £130 so even taking into account the cost of replacing the fans. It's still not that much to spend on a great looking, slimline well-built unit to power 4 channels in one box solution.



Have ordered a pair of low noise Noctua NF-A4x20 FLX, Premium Quiet Fans with 15 dB(A) for £14 each. I could of bought Gelid’s Silent 4 series cheaper at only approx £6 each but the Noctua were the quietest and I know are a great reliable product.

Amp seems to only need some screws removed from lid and switch out the fans so should be an easy job.
 
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Thank you Alex and Mr Latte for the help. I'm already a bit wiser right now.

So for my needs (wanting to feel chassis movements on each wheel) I need a 4 channel Amp. Afterwards I can buy a secondary with a dual channel.

The Behringer EPQ 304 - 4 Channel Amplifier seems like a good deal indeed. Very slim so I can mount it on the 8020 chassis underneath the seat. Are cables included with the amplifier or do I need to buy them myself? I might need to buy some speaker twist adapters for the Behringer output channels then. But the total price is still pretty cheap.

For the chassis feedback I dropped my eyes on Reckhorn BS-200's. For the gear and ABS I thought of Dayton Audio DAEX32U-4 Ultra 32mm Exciter 20W 4 Ohm.

Thanks for the help already!
 
Thank you Alex and Mr Latte for the help. I'm already a bit wiser right now.

So for my needs (wanting to feel chassis movements on each wheel) I need a 4 channel Amp. Afterwards I can buy a secondary with a dual channel.

The Behringer EPQ 304 - 4 Channel Amplifier seems like a good deal indeed. Very slim so I can mount it on the 8020 chassis underneath the seat. Are cables included with the amplifier or do I need to buy them myself? I might need to buy some speaker twist adapters for the Behringer output channels then. But the total price is still pretty cheap.

For the chassis feedback I dropped my eyes on Reckhorn BS-200's. For the gear and ABS I thought of Dayton Audio DAEX32U-4 Ultra 32mm Exciter 20W 4 Ohm.

Thanks for the help already!

Cables needed are usually not with most amps, I have a cable guide linked at the start of this thread, or you can search for it. Although it doesn't cover everything it should be some help. The recommended exciter is not the one you mention above. Look for the 40w DAEX32EP-4 Thruster model.

Many effects for stereo give a similar response for front as they do rear. While a 4 channel installation has the potential for independent "per wheel" feedback with some effects it is not all.

I would say in having researched many options. 2 channels for a seat or rear section is quite limiting in what we can do not just in the number of effects but how well we feel them compared to the option I am promoting in using multiple exciters on the seat for additional bodyzone contact.
 
V2 of the tuned shakers - immense punch
+
profile mounting 8cm srews stable
less torque wood profile allows swinging

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@boern69
Interesting efforts man but seems a lot of work and materials to boost a budget unit that's frequency limited to 55Hz. Gotta say, I do like your enthusiasm to seek for better performance with what you are using, not convinced they are a good choice if wanting to take tactile immersion performance more serious.

Is the increasing of bass amplitude also possible with simpler means?
As shown before.... :)

Here is my weapon of preference as a possible option and for multiple channels. Using the hardware approach it enables more variable control, choose to have it on or off and apply it per individual unit if desired. Utilising the source as independent L or R mono, dual-mono or stereo

6SmyiqN.png


I believe what your achieving/doing is similar to what's happening below but without the ability to apply variable or on/off levels of control.

40Hz Test Tone - Peak Bass Comparison
*An increase of 3dB doubles the sound intensity


The problem you may find is, some effects you may want this but on others, you might not. It's well known when we begin to add more effects for a unit to produce. The more limited it becomes in feeling the variations in frequencies of each effect and this I would say even more so when we are boosting amplitude to seek for more punch. That does not bode well for some effects that need to feel different or natural over a range of frequencies.

When I looked at using the HA6000 bass controls I found it could be used effectively for a specific effect or source that we want to boost. So yes it was handy to boost a unit that maybe was being used for a specific role. When applied to a unit that was being given various effects to handle, for me it then felt more like one effect that didn't change much and individual detail was lost.

Adding additional amplitude was handy for boosting game audio-tactile as many games have really low bass audio hidden below 20Hz. This needs additional boost, combined with some EQ via a soundcard to improve dramatically what audio-tactile can offer. I also experimented in the past with sub-harmonic processors which were interesting. Still, have a couple laying around somewhere.

You or others may think the application approach you are doing is great (each to their own) but I much rather desire to have a method to control a boost or cut for frequencies than a fixed installed application or approach that applies such but cant be tuned or disabled. A term used would be "muffled bass" common with over boosting of midbass frequencies. It's general reasons I am not that convinced with this approach, for instance, how can a person tell if/what distortion is being caused by the applications boost and if it is causing any frequency peak or clipping issues?

All I am saying is, It seems a lot of effort to add to a build that a £100 or so bit of hardware may do similar and with more control. Maybe I should buy one of the units you have just in the interest of future testing and comparisons. From a hobby perspective, it's certainly kinda intriguing.
 
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If we seek to manipulate the sound/shape of an audio source then its best we do this with ways we can control it, not methods that just boost the source dynamic range with no way to determine what it does over it. For lowest bass only purposes, this is not so much an issue and a large bass-shaker that is limited by crossover control to only handle low bass, say below 30Hz.

I believe that's one reason why an "S" shaped bracket by tactile brand Earthquake is not so much a problem. While it energizes the output of the shaker with leverage in the bracket it is not intended to be used with mid-bass and harmonics which a small or budget tactile unit commonly will use.

Now, for me, someone with a budget tactile unit trying to use leverage or other approaches in attempting to bring lower bass extension to that unit is not the same thing at all. As this unit may not be intended for the lowest bass anyways and is not typically going to be controlled or limited via a crossover to only the lowest bass frequencies.

We may not want to extend the dB for midrange bass frequencies as they are already strong enough and do not suit being over-driven. A serious point to note is that different Hz suit having different levels of peak dB. So in an attempt to gain more low-end boost if it comes at the expense of over boosting mid-range as well, then it will not bring well-balanced bass output.

With effects using wider frequency ranges and if tactile units are given roles for mid or high bass, including harmonics. Then these specific roles may help define such effects better as intended. Thats what I found the exciters really good for. Rather than one tactile unit be set to try and do everything and from one single installation area. Having more control and not having control can make a difference just as one unit compared to multiple units are factors to consider for improved tactile. I would suggest testing this approach as putting so much focus on seeking to boost the output from what a single or small/basic unit offers.

Here is an excellent video that highlights via hardware usage of altering low bass, mid-bass and harmonical excitation in how they can not only add to the desired effect but also make a mess of the source being used. For optimal performance, we should look at bass, not just as one element but how low-mid-high bass can be better applied and controlled individually for tactile immersion on a cockpit.

Certainly, my own journey with tactile has taken me down paths I never thought I would go. What I have learned so far is that a single tactile unit is grossly inadequate for the challenges we place on them with multiple effects and for cockpits. Yet we may want multiple effects operation, we may want superb detailing and super deep bass.

These are factors my own build attempt to demonstrate based on quite a lot of experimentation. No question for me in concluding that combining different models of shakers/exciters for specific usage or roles and incorporating them with the approach of additional body-zones brings very good immersion.

Not everyone will, of course, seek to go to such lengths (nor did I originally) but my own approach is to discover worthwhile benefits I can experience with such experimentation or interesting findings and developments from dabbling with continued testing. Soon I will be able to experience the new build for the seat and combine different options.
 
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Hi, new to the group here, I have searched through pretty much all of the previous pages but cannot find a straight forward answer so need advice, sorry if this has already been asked and I missed it. I am looking to add a Buttkicker LFE and a ADX Maximus to my rig, I am torn between buying a NX1000D or a NX3000D, I really just need to know will 1 NX1000D be capable of running 1 LFE and 1 ADX Maximus? if I ever wanted to expand I would buy another amp but for now this is my entry point so don't want to overspend if I can help it. thanks in advance.
 

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