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Tactile Immersion - General Discussion - Hardware & Software

Discussion in 'Sim Racing Hardware' started by Mr Latte, Jun 29, 2017.

  1. Alvaro de la Orden

    Alvaro de la Orden

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    I will check SimHub Discord then, thanks
     
  2. Alvaro de la Orden

    Alvaro de la Orden

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    any particular reason you are only using 40% Master volume? @Mr Latte
     
  3. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte
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    Multi Exciters Installation:

    Point to highlight, users that I tried to encourage to go with the same installation that I was currently testing/using in the seat. Was to ensure they could experience the effects I have been working on as they are intended. Look guys I am doing what's best for my own build and immersion I can achieve with the experimentation that I do. Its not always successful. I can freely offer to share this and other findings and let others give feedback on the experimentations being done but I am not building specialist effects for a specific configuration only for people to use on installations that they won't work properly on. This due to delay and other settings incorporated in how these effects use individual channels. I get a bit defensive when I work hard on the time it takes to build/test such effects and have them operate or feel to a set way. For then to have someone use them in an entirely different manner to come back to me or tell me they don't feel right. Ok look, on a finished rig, thats fine, people can do what they want on their own builds.

    Right now at this point, its not constructive when seeking to build and during ongoing tests with the experimentation of the effects. If and often they are developed to operate in a specifc manner or with other effects and different channels. It makes sense to do such testing with others that are quite happy to run with the recommended installation.

    With Simhubs controls, we can now do things better with more control than we could before.
    We dont have to stick to the same effect set to various channels method. Sure we can do this for base layers but we can now generate effects to transfer their activity and energy over multiple channels. Effects can have multiple contributing layers for specific detailing. Now with being able to place effects tidly into their own folders, we can have multiple layers for an effect only visible when needed.

    Current SIM Trend- Its All About The G's
    I see people with SFX and seat belt tensioners and even G-Seats bringing more and more physical interaction with the cockpit dipping under loads. Yet I also see something they are missing in immersion.Tactile is not about trying to replicate body pressure like a g-seat or replicate motion, its about creating felt sensations, detailing to bring its own "character" via frequencies and how different frequencies can be used for many types of felt sensations.

    Being Creative With Effects
    We have control of the force, we have control of the feel for the sensation desired. We now have the possibility to better control channels.

    So, does anyone want tactile brake surge that is G-Force related and not % brake pedal depression. What about if it is not just operated in the pedal regions. It actually moves as the intensity of the G-Force values increase, transferring from front-back. So from pedals to their buttocks, to the spine and sides of the seat and then finally to the shoulders. Doing all this by utilising a controlled delay and different intensities or combined frequencies to each channel.

    You get my thinking?

    So maybe youd want another effect layer to work with that, which adds a judder sensation but only as the effect is peaking. Maybe this go only to the side channels and pedals, mmmmmm?????. Yep we could do that and we can try loads of things for added immersion. Bringing felt details and sensations for "G" based effects that motion nor a G Seat deliver yet have these tactile sensations complement what they already do offer. We could combine additional layers that still uses brake pedal depression too, but have this only as a central force to the spine for a snap sensation perhaps?

    Maybe you'd like to be able to adapt the feel as well wouldn't you? Sure why not, we can have multiple versions of this transitioning effect but they use different frequencies and you as the user choose the one you prefer. It's now so easy to copy even complexed multi-layer effects into a new folder and let you mess about with your own frequencies or delays. Make a mess, just delete it and revert back to a pre-configured one. These are all real possibilities we can explore in the way SimHub has advanced over this past year.

    My Own Rig Vision:
    So my aim is to have for seats, a fixed configuration for multi-channel tactile. Or one that resembles accurate representation for the effects as possible and bring much greater positional placement for individual effects and or effects that transition between channels.

    I know full well what the capabilities are with a rig using the best high-end tactile units. I can say with confidence this new approach in several ways adds to the immersion that a typical install even with the biggest badass tactile cant bring.

    What I cant do is build multichannel effects that work for everyone's build and the hardware each may have. I can, however, bring effects that use custom features and they move over a seat to use the various body regions and channels. For people to enjoy these if they go with the same recommended hardware and installation.

    Not all seats will be suitable neither but the effects my rig will use and I spend hundreds of hours on. So if others want the fruit of that labour (and the effects to work as intended) then it's up to them to go with the same recommended installation for at least the seat. That way the custom effects I work on for them should work on theirs well too.

    Im going to do my own thing for my own build but this is the direction it is going regards custom multichannel effects and taking tactile much further.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019
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  4. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte
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    I use other external hardware between the soundcard and amps. (Behringer HA6000)
    It can be used for pre-amplification, tone controls and showing the activity and dB for each channel.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019
  5. Jerfish

    Jerfish

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    option 1.jpg option 4.jpg option 5.jpg option 3.jpg front mount 1.jpg Having a question on this - just bought 4 mini LFE's from buttkicker to place on my next level racing GTultimate V2 with the V3 motion platform. Trying to determine the best mounting options for the seat area. aside from wild brackets, I think the best way is to attach them directly to the chair. Other option would be to the plate holding the rig, but that must transmit through plate/frame/motion platform/motion plaform arms/seat assembly - and likely would muddy directions? I figure for the front mounting them right under the pedals is the best option? Any thoughts there/ideas on the best option for these four? option 1.jpg option 4.jpg option 5.jpg
     
  6. Jivesauce

    Jivesauce
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    I've read this thread (and others) for a long time now and I decided to finally take the plunge and buy a couple transducers. I bought a Buttkicker Advance for under my seat and an Aura AST-2B-4 Pro for under my pedal plate. Despite having read this thread, I'm afraid my knowledge of audio equipment is so low that I have some much more basic questions than the things I see discussed here generally, but hopefully someone doesn't mind answering them for me.

    First, I should say, I don't have my brackets fabbed up yet, so my brief testing has been done with them just sitting in my lap. So first, I'm using a Behringer NX1000D as my amp and the shaking wasn't as strong as I expected so I cranked the gain on both channels up to near the max. Now the green "limit" lights are coming on somewhat regularly. My understanding is that these are to indicate clipping on that channel, and that there is a yellow and red light that can come on as well. I have never seen one of those light, so does that mean I'm ok but nearing the max, or should I back it down a little to where even the green one doesn't come on?

    And speaking of "max power," the BK says it takes 75w minimum and 400w max, but the Aura says 50w RMS and 100w max. Is there a way to control how much power is being sent to each of these individually, or does the amp somehow handle this automatically? I have no idea what I'm doing... On the advice I've seen in this thread and elsewhere, I did put a filter on the amp to roll off any frequency much above 100 Hz.

    On to the SimHub software: I've found a few recommended settings, but it looks like SimHub updated everything related to bass shakers recently and the options look different to anything I've seen posted. There also appear to be a lot of automatic settings now, which Wotever said on the Discord should do a pretty good job setting everything up. So do I just let those do their thing and not mess with individual effect settings much?

    And also, is the ability to adjust the Hz range of specific effects just a way to make different effects more discernible from each other, or is that intended for something else?

    Sorry to bombard everyone with all these questions, I thought I was more prepared after my research but find I'm actually pretty clueless when it comes to the details. For what it's worth, everything is hooked up and does shake correctly when I drive, so that's a start! :D
     
  7. boern69

    boern69

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    jivesauce
    there are different modes in simhub basshaker ->
    imo what u are looking for /mr latte makes some layers for complex sounds there is
    advanced/extended mode
    but u can experiment with HZ in every mode an its woth the time
    to figure out what frequnezies ur shaker likes and feels best on ur seat

    pos of shaker
    volume
    dampening of rig
    pos of dampers
    weight of rig
    upholstery of seat
    piston mass of shaker

    these are things that effect ur immersion and u can play with them
    so good luck

    ------------
    @Mr Latte
    I found a supplier who offered me powersoft movers -price is
    • PF000670: Mover DD - 4 Ohm € 630,00
    • PF000671: Mover DD - 100V € 630,00
    • PF000672: Mover ID - 4 Ohm € 585,00
    • PF000673: Mover ID - 100 V € 585,00
    no vat
    only corporate customer (but no problem)

    What do u think ? I it worth testing ?
     
  8. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte
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    @boern69
    Not heard or seen anything more about the Powersoft to determine how good they are. I would only purchase if you can compare with BK LFE and return if it does not meet the expectations.

    Based on its weight I am not certain it will outperform the heavier BK models but would be interesting to find out. Buttkicker installs the mid-size BK Advance into many cinemas and is I believe used on commercial installs too. It may be Powersoft are offering their "Mover" as a competing product to that.

    For sim racing however, if motion rigs can supply very powerful low end energy for chassis based effects. Something like the SFX seems hard to beat and it bring motion as well. We then can take this further with what Simhub offers in its effects creation and controls over other tactile.

    @Jivesauce
    See the manual and using the DSP software you can download.
    The crossover section controls not just the crossover (if using one) but also the gain levels for the amps input and output. As buying the "D" based model you can also set the digital wattage limiter to suit the max wattage the unit you are using recommends. Ensure you do this with the typical 50/100w tactile. Balance the input level and output level. WIth a good balance (keep an eye on your peak meters) the amps volume knobs should be in somewhere in the 12 oclock - 2 o'clock positions. Therefore a long way from being maxed out.

    Soundcard volume out - amp input gain level - amp output level control - amp volume knob position
     
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  9. Jivesauce

    Jivesauce
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    Thank you. I'm just using an 80/20 rig from Sim-Lab, so it may not be dampened well, we will find out! It is at least on rubber feet, so hopefully it doesn't transfer vibration to the ground too badly. I will experiment with the Hz settings.

    Thank you for your help! Yes I only knew to buy the DSP model from seeing your very clear, repeated recommendations in these threads :D I did read the amp manual and install the software before posting, but unfortunately the manual does not go into much detail about specific crossover controls, and if the software has a manual I haven't been able to find it. It's also possible the manual covers it and it was just beyond my understanding.

    Also, it hadn't occurred to me that I needed to set the volume level of the soundcard SimHub is using since it isn't my primary audio source, which sounds dumb now that I say it, but I'll figure out how to do it. I promise I'm not stupid, I'm capable of learning, this is just totally outside my realm of experience.

    I'm not at home so I'm going to use some screenshots from a bad YouTube video, sorry for the quality. So this is the main configuration screen of the software, and I may have just had a revelation.

    [​IMG]

    Should I be in "Bi-Amp mode" as shown in this screenshot rather than Stereo as I am currently? I ask, because in Stereo I only get one set of controls for both A + B, but it looks like I can control them individually in Bi-Amp mode. So this is where I set the wattage limiter, correct? I would set my load in the box for each of the channels (my shakers are both 4 ohm), the turn the Peak Limiter down until the correct max wattage for each shaker is shown in the "W" box? I think I should be in Bi-Amp 1, it looks like Bi-Amp 2 does the same thing except it crosses back over before output to A + B, which I don't understand at all.

    Once that is done, I would go to the crossover page, which looks like this:

    [​IMG]

    And set my Hz ranges on each channel to match the capabilities of the respective shaker, right? Is the gain knob on this screen the output gain then? You mentioned being able to control both input and output gain on the crossover screen, but I only see the one control.

    If I have all this mostly correct, then the only thing I'm still a little confused on is the signal strength flowchart you gave me at the end of your post. My amp only has one gain knob for each channel on the outside, which the manual says is input gain, and no volume knob.

    So going down the flowchart:
    soundcard volume: I can do this
    amp input gain: this is the knob on the outside of the unit?
    amp output level control: the gain control in the crossover?
    volume knob: I don't think I have one of these...

    Once I figure out which of those controls does what, I want to watch the input and output meters shown in the right side of the software in my screenshots, and balance my soundcard volume and input gain to where the input meter is mostly being filled but rarely if ever peaking to the point of clipping, ideally with the input gain knobs roughly in the range of the 12-2 position, then adjust my output gain until the output meter behaves similarly?

    I'm so sorry to belabor this so much, I know I'm being tedious, I just want to make sure I'm doing this right and don't destroy my equipment. I really appreciate the help from everyone!
     
  10. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte
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    @Jivesauce

    Several threads or posts I have covered this before if you use the search feature/
    One example Here
    Not much difference I believe in the old software and the new, to correct myself the INPUT level is controlled in the Crossover screen. The OUTPUT is controlled by the amps front knobs. What you have for
    A) Soundcard Volume (Simhub Main Volume)
    B) Amps Input Gain Level
    C)Amps Output via front knobs

    = Output to tactile
    Individual effect layers can have their own volumes, the primary volume at the top of Simhub controls the soundcard level.
     
  11. Jivesauce

    Jivesauce
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    Thank you, I had searched, and also followed many of these threads for a long time, but I was having trouble finding what I was looking for. The linked thread is helpful. After thinking further after my previous post I realized I was probably wrong about using Bi-Amp mode because, if I'm understanding correctly, that would take one signal and separate it to the different channels based on my crossover settings, which means I would lose my individual front/back separation. I think I understand the crossover settings in that post, I feel like I'm getting close to getting to where I know what to do here.

    So, back to Stereo mode and one single limiter control which, based on the screen shot in the thread you linked me, is correct. So I guess I would set the limiter to the lower max of my two shakers then? Set it to 100W for the Aura, and not worry about the Buttkicker Advance accepting up to 400W?

    It makes sense to me that the knobs on the front of the amp would control output gain, and in fact that's originally what I had written in my post before I went and checked the manual again, and it says:
    [​IMG]
    (3) are the knobs on the front of the amp and (4) are the meters above the knobs. Am I misunderstanding something?
     
  12. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte
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    Okay, Bi-Amp is used more for speakers.
    Typically to control individually a subwoofer and main driver or main driver and tweeter.
    Using the crossover settings and possible EQ to tune how/what each driver performs.

    The Crossover screen shows INPUT and OUTPUT Meters, you can use these to confirm.
    Adding gain to the INPUT source determines the signal level it comes in at. If this is higher then its also increasing the volume output for whatever level the volume knob is at.
     
  13. Jivesauce

    Jivesauce
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    Yes, as a guitar player I do at least understand the relationship between gain on the input and output, but that's about all I understand! :D I was just trying to wrap my head around both the gain controls in the crossover tab and the gain controls on the front of the amp being for the input. I think I'm to the point where I can start to experiment with all these settings and get it balanced out well enough. I just didn't want to damage my equipment, and I think setting the peak limiter to 100W should take care of that. Thanks again for all your help!
     
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  14. boern69

    boern69

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  15. leeroy605

    leeroy605
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    What's the preferred Dayton exciter for seat based effects? The 20w ultra or the 40w thruster? Trying to decide which ones to buy!
     
  16. anton_Chez

    anton_Chez
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    I'd get the 40W. The difference in build and output is astounding considering they cost nearly the same. Also any amp that can handle a 20W unit should be able to handle a 40W unit. They are low power units after all.

    I have both and I leave the 20W ones on just because I already bought them first. I am not totally sure if they give a different feel due to being built slightly different but I think the 20W ones don't produce enough power for me to notice. I think Mr Latte will agree that the way around this (and the way it's been recommended to use) is to use 4 - 6 units to give a better overall feel on the seat.
     
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  17. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte
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    With my own testing, I found the 20w model could give a tad better lower Hz response but it was more prone to bottoming. The 40w Thruster performs better with higher frequencies and yes seems a stronger construction.

    The pin connectors they use are a pain in getting the correct size crimps for them. Soldering to these may be best. I personally want a disconnect feature, maybe 24" or so further down on the cable from the exciter which can be installed to the rig frame or close to under the seat area.

    Just an idea....
    [​IMG]

    With these being so small banana plugs may be ideal. Heres an 8 channel (7.1) AV wall plate which could act as a nice possible solution. I shared this before for main/larger tactile but SpeakON terminals are more robust for that.

    [​IMG]
    Some of these will let you connect plugs at each end, so may not require any soldering at this point for all the individual channels. The underneath set can link back to the amps and the front sets go to the individual exciters. Simple if a unit ever needs to be replaced or if you want to just disconnect.


    Lots of videos on soldering can be found

    @boern69
    Behringers own DSP on their amps seems better and by the time most people buy a decent amp to then go out and buy an additional DSP module, it could cost more. I shared on this thread a similar unit from Dayton and other brands make them too with PC software.

    The problem with these DSP boxes is that they mostly are 2 inputs, each then needs to be configured and on its own for the tactile, it will be controlling. Yes, it can help to tune your configuration and avoid bad reverb or issues with certain frequencies and some materials.

    The route I eventually went as shared before was via multichannel USB interface, professional DAW tools and plugins. I will have full control of 18 channels at my fingertips and be able to apply any type of common audio tool that professionals use in DAWs to any single channel. Its far beyond what we need but their is no better way to have so much control and of so many channels at one time.

    For iPad AUM is incredible software that enables this and with the interface being able to also use professional monitoring tools. This part of my own build is beyond what anyone else I have seen do with a sim rig. I guess with me having a hobby interest in the audio/tactile this is where I differ to most people.

    Sim Tactile = Very Demanding
    Home cinema via movies does not use below 15Hz or even 10Hz that often in soundtracks. Sure some scenes will but its not constant. We can be using it constantly depending on the frequencies used for effects and also the number of effects we place on each channel for say a large BK to output.

    Adding tactile can be a bit of work, sometimes rigs themselves need rubber washers or other dampening to ensure being tightened down. Generally to try and ensure we dont get bad rattling or pinging in metal materials.

    The Simpit in a recent video makes an excellent example of a rig making a lot of noise with what appears as a poor installation. Yet it seems Shawn maybe thinks this is okay or puts up with it (lol). Well, he certainly does not address the issue on how to improve it or even attempts to improve it. Just listen to the friggin racket this makes. :redface:

     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019 at 11:08
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  18. leeroy605

    leeroy605
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    Thank you gents, 40w it is. Excited to get these up and running, seem to be really good and easy to install which is good for me.
     
  19. CC

    CC
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    Any of you guys got any advice here,
    I just placed my 3rd amp today in my server case looks fantastic,
    [​IMG]

    I think the main issue I am having I purchased 2x Xonar DGX 5.1 Cards for my PC obviously using the same driver I imagine, but after playing around with the settings for more than 1hr or so,
    just cant seem to get them all working at once or them bugging out and going crazy,

    Using SimHub, 3X Behringer NX1000D and 6x Buttkicker LFE Mini, 2x Xonar DGX 5.1
     
  20. CC

    CC
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    Anyways that was a total nightmare I uninstalled and reinstalled the drivers and started from 0,
    for some reason it then worked after another 1hr playing around with it,
    so excited to try this out now + I got my Jetseat from Andre yesterday so now 12 motors rocking my seat! :D:D:rolleyes:
    [​IMG]
    once all adjusting and fine tuning its all default but works thats what is important here !
    [​IMG]
     
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