Some comments regarding RBR pacenotes

[Warren Dawes]

Since we have had a few negative comments about the "accuracy" of the Pacenotes in our Rally Club events lately, I thought I would post my comments (some I have made before ) in defence of RSRBR.
It is well known that there are a few dodgy pacenotes, especially with the reverse default stages. However, we should bear in mind:

1. The default pacenotes were made for the default stages, not the reverse ones. However, if we only use the default stages and not the reverse ones, things would get very boring and we'd lose interest and variation. So the odd dodgy pacenote (eg. at Falstone II) is a price we pay to have so much more variation available to us. Mostly they are ok anyway I think, just put it down to some realism where co-drivers make occasional mistakes.

2. The above errors, mainly at Falstone II, is most noticeable with the 3D pacenotes. A couple of them are pointing the wrong direction, but the verbal pacenotes are correct. However, most of us don't use 3D Pacenotes anyway, it's not very realistic.

3. The distance callouts are sometimes not ideal to suit our driving style. You can adjust this though, in the Options menus.

4. We should all remember that the default pacenotes are made to suit the default RBR cars with default good weather, on normal surfaces. Of course they will not be ideal when the weather changes, or the track surface has been changed. Again, I see this as realistic, in any real rally, drivers must adapt their braking points and speeds to suit the prevailing conditions.
We also have to adapt to the car we are driving. Obviously a WRC car will need different pacenote calls to a FWD low powered car.

I think it may be possible to modify the pacenotes and to make custom ones, but that is a very difficult and time consuming task. Changing voices is not too demanding, but not sure how to adjust the actual call speed for a turn.

My approach is to just accept some inaccuracies in the pacenotes, and use them as a guide. We have all been damaged by the odd dodgy pacenote call ( I even manage to get lost due to lack of a co-driver call ), but that is part of the variability and risk of Rally driving.
It's a small price to pay for the huge amount of extra variables and content available through using RSRBR.

If someone does manage to come up with a set of custom pacenotes, that would be great, but it won't detract from my enjoyment of using RSRBR.

 

[Warren Dawes]

Sadly, WRC 2010 has promised a lot of things before it was released, but the final result didn't deliver. So, I'll continue to ignore premarketing hype and wait to see what it delivers.

 

[granthughes]

It's my way of saying that I am OK with crappy notes since it adds realism. The notes a real driver and co-driver make in recce are not free of mistakes.

Here in the US most rallies don't even have recce, you can either purchase the Jemba notes (computer generated) from the organizers, or buy notes from a team that have run the stages before. I imagine the RBR notes are more accurate than this system.

The Jemba notes are numeric but a based upon the degree of the corner not the gear.
So a 1 is pretty much a hairpin and a 6 is flat out. The same system is used at all events using Jemba in the US and it at least makes for consistency between events.
Recce is becoming more common in the US. Mostly though it's wasted time since only a few are really at a pace where they'll benefit from it. Really it mostly helps people keep from DNFing by letting them see some trickier sections or cautions to assess.
Nicky Grist said in an interview once during the Focus years that the pace notes used by McRae were based upon which gear to be in. I know for a fact that on the McRae games they were based upon the degree of the corner. Also don't believe from what I've seen of Colin in-car that they used gear based calls. Nicky is the Welsh Wizard though so it's quite possible he just wrote what Colin told him to and thought that was Colin's system?

I know the numeric notes I use in the game are simply replacements for the descriptive notes. Flat - 6, Fast - 5,... Etc. Not sure if I have those two descriptives right because I haven't played with descriptives in years. But they are degree of corner and not gear. And they are nowhere near perfect. It would be nice if there were a way to modify and record your own pacenotes. You can never commit to the notes until you've played the stage enough times to not even really need the notes...

 

[granthughes]

Sadly, WRC 2010 has promised a lot of things before it was released, but the final result didn't deliver. So, I'll continue to ignore premarketing hype and wait to see what it delivers.

My old roommate bought me Dirt 2. I played it maybe twice. I played the new Gran Turismo game the other day. Way lame. Compared to RBR, nothing else is really comparable.
The time when we'll be able to modify and/or create pacenotes will be once someone codes it for RBR.

 

[Aaron DeMarre]

RBRDll has a pacenotes editor, but I do not think it works for the reverse and custom stages. You can record your own audio, there is a tutorial on the rallyesim site somewhere.

 

[WorkerBee]

If you have the RBR FixUp patch plugin (rbr download-->misc) installed you should be able to edit the pace notes of all stages, including reversed and custom stages.

 

[Rick Bamford]

If you have the RBR FixUp patch plugin (rbr download-->misc) installed you should be able to edit the pace notes of all stages, including reversed and custom stages.

HOW?

 

[WorkerBee]

As Aaron said, with the RBRDLL pace note editor. FixUp simply fixes it to be able to edit custom stages.

 

[Rick Bamford]

So RBRDll is included in RSRBR? I gues I'll have to look into that now.

 

[Senad Subasic]

So RBRDll is included in RSRBR? I gues I'll have to look into that now.

Yup, that's how you capture slow motion footage, or pause the replay and get the camera where you want it.

 

[Pete Mull]

As Aaron said, with the RBRDLL pace note editor. FixUp simply fixes it to be able to edit custom stages.

Is this what people are talking about:

http://www.rallyesim.fr/forum_rlsm/viewtopic.php?t=483

Fourth post down

Pete

 

[Warren Dawes]

Is this what people are talking about:

http://www.rallyesim.fr/forum_rlsm/viewtopic.php?t=483

Fourth post down

Pete

Yes Pete.

We are hoping to get more info on this and start a post to help others to use the Pacenote Editor to improve some of the RBR Pacenotes.

 

[Pete Mull]

Thanks Warren, I would like to make my own numbered notes and am going to try the Pacenote Editor - once I've had a look at it I'll let you know, then if it would ease the pressure on you, I'll be happy to do a tutorial on how to do it.

Pete

 

[Aaron DeMarre]

If you have the RBR FixUp patch plugin (rbr download-->misc) installed you should be able to edit the pace notes of all stages, including reversed and custom stages.

I still don't think you can edit the pacenotes of the reverse stages in RSRBR tho, since they seem to reuse the slot of the original stage, so RBRDLL thinks you are editing the regular stage. Or I have not figured out how yet at least.

BTW, saw your plugin is shipping with RSRBR now, it is very nice!

 

[Warren Dawes]

Pete, it would be great to have someone write a tutorial for us on this. :thumb:

So far Rick has posted this info which is a good starting point:

There is a read me file in the Dll fixup program in the RBR download section. You don't event need RSRBR to use it.

In brief you launch the Dll game from RScenter, then once you start a stage you press App-N and it gives you the pacenote editor on screen. You then use the mouse & keyboard to move, delete, edit, modifiy the current pacenotes. Press save as you go to make sure the changes stay(remember RBR has a time limit of 30mins for each stage.). When you are finished, you need to get out of the game, return to RS center and open the stage again to see your notes working. The stage needs to re-load before it loads your new notes.

This is very brief and only meant for those that want to have a look and try it out. I will try and put something more meaningful together shortly.

I've had a brief look at it, and can get the editor running in-game, but I haven't fully understood how the actual editing part is done yet (it needs some time).

If someone writes a tutorial, the community would be very grateful. :wink:

 

[Pete Mull]

I've done a little more research on the whole subject of RBR Pacenotes and there are three areas of information out there that would seem to give a more fuller picture of this whole subject. As far as I can see the following exist:

• RBRdll notes/instructions including a section on the Pacenote Editor
• There is a thread on the Rallyesim forum that talks about recording
  notes and file and directory structures.
• Finally there is kegetys numeric pacenotes and installation files which
  explains a little more and will allow easy replacement of existing notes
  with numeric notes with little effort.

What I'm getting from the above is that I can well satisfy my needs for a personalized notes for the various stages and I'm going to start working on developing new notes and a tutorial and will post back a draft as soon as I have something to show you.

Pete

 

[Aaron DeMarre]

If someone writes a tutorial, the community would be very grateful. :wink:

Warren, my week is really tight since I have to get in Nations Cup this week before leaving for the weekend to work at Olympus Rally. I may be able to write something up next week if someone doesn't do it first.

I also have some info on how to edit the reverse stages/specials, but I haven't tried it yet.

Edit: Whoops I did not read Pete's post closely enough. Pete, let me figure out how to edit the reverse stages and I will supply that info for your tutorial.

 

[Pete Mull]

Edit: Whoops I did not read Pete's post closely enough. Pete, let me figure out how to edit the reverse stages and I will supply that info for your tutorial.

I'm all for a collective effort and would appreciate any input or feedback

Pete

 

[Alastair Walker]

I'm not sure if you are going to be changing / re-recording some of the voice calls of the notes as well as changing the number / severity call for each corner but as you mentioned you were looking for a collective effort I have attached to the end of this post the Pace Note Legend in PDF format we use when writing notes for our real rallies and hope it may be of some use for you with the project.

The legend includes all the symbols and descriptions we use on our rallies (will probably not be of much use other than for general info) as well as 1 to 6 and 1 to 10 pace note wheels (which will probably help speed up rewriting the notes).

The pace note wheels are used during recce to confirm the severity (number) of each corner. That info is relayed to the codriver who is writing the notes from my descriptions as I drive through the stage at normal road speed.

What is done is small pieces of tape are placed around the wheel as per the pace note wheel with the number written on it and then a strip of tape on the centre of the dash behind the wheel so that when you are doing recce and are in a corner it is very easy to see the severity of that corner. Then on the second pass through at a bit faster speed you can confirm or adjust the notes as needed.

Most teams find after a while they just know from experience what the corners are when doing recce but still have the tape in place as it is always nice to have the numbers to confirm it.

Some teams use 1 to 6 as they closely match the gear the car will be in for that corner. They use half calls (E.G. 5 1/2) for corners in between full numbers.

Some teams use 1 to 10 where from 3 up the half calls are full numbers 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 as it is more accurate at higher speed.

Some teams use words to replace the numbers like easy, medium and fast

Some teams reverse the numbers where a one is fast and a 6 a hairpin. I think Higgins, Meeke and Solberg use this method.

At the end of the day it is each to their own and most use what they were first exposed to but the majority would use a numbered system in conjunction with words for describing hazards, crests, tightens, opens etc.

In our pace notes and most other teams, certain words like "Into" "Then" and "And" have a distance associated with the word that you as a team just know what it is. For example

Into = 50 Metres or Less
Then = 50 to 100 Metres
And = Immediately Into and a comma is used to show it (EG: R5 , R6 would be read "Right 5 and Right 6")

Some people use Imm (Immediately Into) but saying "And" is a lot quicker than the Navigator having to read out "Immediately Into."

Again I'm not sure what use this will be to you if any or if you already have experience writing notes and know all this already but I hope it helps either way. If you would like any other info I may have or a sample of a proper stages notes we have written previously just let me know.

LINK to Pace Note Legend

Cheers Al

 

[Warren Dawes]

Just to add my perspective to this topic, and hopefully save some work / research.

This is my understanding of the pacenote System in RBR.

The Pacenote part of RBR is built around a number of pre-set calls ie. Turn warnings with 6 grades, and some additional warning calls etc. I believe the game has these hard coded, and it is not possible to edit them to add more calls (ie. don't think you can have 1-10 calls).

The voices are held in specific files that can be modified. You can download files to give numerical calls (ascending or descending), this is easily done. You can even create your own voice calls but I think you are still restricted to the set calls/warnings.

With the DLL Pacenote editor, you can edit some features of the hard coded calls ie. when they are called, change a "flat" call to "fast", or a "fast" call to "hairpin", change a "left" call to "right", etc. (for example).
This is the part I think is most useful to us, and the part that needs a good tutorial. Unfortunately, some of the calls in RBR are dodgy (to say the least) or plain wrong. Especially in some of the reverse Stages. Bisanne II is horrible.
If drivers were able to correct some of these dodgy pacenotes to suit themselves, it would be a huge improvement.

BTW, it's great to see people contributing to this topic, not only will we possibly improve RBR's Pacenotes, but we are learning a lot about what real rally Drivers are doing. :wink:

 

[Pete Mull]

Al, thanks for the notations - much the same as what I have used with minor changes - where bends where on top of one another I used to just read 6 Left 6 Right, used the into/and options with different drivers.

Warren - I had a quick look at the Editor last night and have some ideas about the way notes are named and whether it's possible just to change the audio say from descriptive to numeric and leave the naming of the note unchanged. Another thing I want to look at is the possibility of editing the note/stage files so you could do batch changes to all the stage notes without the task of individual editing. Have some more ideas but need to look at them from a practical point of view first.

If drivers were able to correct some of these dodgy pacenotes to suit themselves, it would be a huge improvement.

If you mean changing the note for one that already exists then that is possible/easy but it you need to change it to something that isn't already hard coded then that's going to need more thought. My initial reaction to the DLL PN Editor is that the options screen for notes is fixed, if it was presented in dropdown selections that were built from the pacenote files then you could add new audio notes to the folder and they would be automatically listed for the user to select.

Too many thoughts going round in my head at the moment - think we just need to do the Tutorial as is and then work on the development of a more flexible/custom system.

Pete