DiRT 4 So, first impressions? Where does it stand versus DR?

[Helmut Skrdla]

Title says it all. It's available now, so for those with much more skill than me, how does it fare? Especially compared to Dirt Rally?

 

[Eckhart von Glan]

well, but are they the exact same cars? i would doubt that in real life. i mean, what you want from a rallyx car is significantly different to what you want from a rally car, isn't it? but then again, i am far from a technical expert, have no clue to be honest.

 

[Father Cool]

That's a fair comment, but the one in the video was the same car set up the same way. So should be the same car I would say. I may be wrong.

 

[Case_]

well, but are they the exact same cars? i would doubt that in real life. i mean, what you want from a rallyx car is significantly different to what you want from a rally car, isn't it? but then again, i am far from a technical expert, have no clue to be honest.

That is a fair question, of course, and something I've been wondering about as well. But as far as I can tell, they seem to be identical - the specs are identical and I've set up the rally car exactly the same as the one in rallycross. So same weight, same power, same chassis, same setup...it's the closest I can get to describing it as the same car.

BTW, I've tried the same thing day before with Fiesta RX and Fiesta R5 - but didn't use the footage in the end because the cars are just too different. The RX Fiesta is a fair bit lighter and the setup options are quite different, so you can't match the setup. The same handling issues manifested, but since I really want to be as fair and objective as possible and the cars were too different in specs and setup, I didn't use the footage and went with the S4 the next day.

Why do you think(what is the reason) that there is a different model for RX v Rally? It makes no sense to me because it would mean a whole new set of physics for exactly the same cars. Would need to be 100% intentional to make them different.

Supposedly, from what I've gathered, they're using a different tyre model for RX and for rally, with the RX one being much more refined since they've had more time with the actual RX drivers, as opposed to rally. Though I still feel like there might be more to this, perhaps even a bug or something like that.

 

[Ole Marius Myrvold]

well, but are they the exact same cars? i would doubt that in real life. i mean, what you want from a rallyx car is significantly different to what you want from a rally car, isn't it? but then again, i am far from a technical expert, have no clue to be honest.

The Gr.B RX cars in the game are not the Gr.B RX cars that was used by Schanche, Alamäki, Gollop etc. Those Gr.B monsters was further developed.

• MG Metro 6r4 was a N/A V6 engine, that was somewhat inspired from the Cosworth DFV, and had 410 HP. The RX-Metros was very often converted to a Bi-Turbo(especially from 88/89 and onwards), but even more important, Gollop built it down to a 2.3lBi-Turbo, to get lower weight as well. Reportedly they had bench-tested the engine and got just over 800 hp from it, but they went with a "low" 650 HP to keep it reliable for RX.
• Ford RS200 (Ford RS200E). Now, this is a slightly special case as well, because Ford had begun work on a RS200 Evolution before Gr.B was cancelled in rally. Reportedly a few cars were converted before it was all cancelled. Some of them had only the evo-engine, some had new aero as well. One of those cars went to Norway and to Martin Schanche. Remember that Schanche as well was known for making much own parts for the cars (he is credited in large parts for the Xtrac 4WD system, and his transmission design for RX cars, were used by Xtrac in F1 in to the mid 90's). That car was also said to be running at "at least" 650HP in race spec, but also, with Xtrac/Schanche parts. To add to the Schanche/Xtrac story. Back in 84 they developed a torque-split system, which made it possible for Schanche to manually adjust the torque split while driving, it was a hydraulic system with stepless power change. At least Schanche, Rantanen, Pat Doran and Holm had Xtrac transmission in their cars.
• Peugeot 205T16 This might be the car that was changed the least from it's rallying origin. The Peugeots were extremely well prepared as Peugeot Talbot Sport themselves managed the RX programme. For the 88 season, they decided to take their Pikes Peak car, decrease the displacement down to 1750ccm due to weight rules. That car produced around 540-560 HP and with 890/960kg it had a low HP/ton compared to the 6r4 and RS200E, but as it was in effect a factory car, and not "homebuilt" as many of the cars were (The Gollop Metro was prepared and built by his own company), it was a very effective car. They also removed the top gear from the Pikes Peak version, as they felt there was no need for that in RX.
• Audi S1 E2 Not a very popular RX car, and thus, less is known about it. Mostly used by Olle Arnesson, a couple of "less good" Swedes and the late Herbert Breiteneder. There is also not quite known what cars are the real S1 E2, and which are the old ones, but converted. Regardless, as the RX "horsepower wars" went on in the late 80's and early 90's, it is assumed that the ones that managed to run the S1 fairly competitively near the end, were pushing out somewhere in between of 700 and 800 HP. The car was large and a bit heavier than the rest, and thus there were no issues in putting in a bigger engine in those cars. (The rules back then,- and now to a certain degree - set the car minimum weight depending on how large the engine was in ccm. Bigger engine = more weight).
• Lancia Delta S4 Even rarer in the European Champ, but quite a few was used in France. The car was very expensive compared to the rest and twitchy and hard to drive on bumpy terrain. This was certainly proved by a struggling Matti Alamäki in 1987. However, many wanted to try it due to it being supercharged and turbocharged, making the turbo-lag almost non-existing and more power at low revs. The most RX S4's were given many funny looking aero parts to try to make it easier and more stable to drive, and Bruno Saby's S4 RX had only 450 hp, at least officially. It was said that other teams were pushing out closer to 600HP from the cars, and it was even reported that at the end of the Gr.B era, that some were pushing 800HP, something I am not too sure about.

This was a very long answer, more directed to people with special interests - but as the cars in D4 are not "RX-Specials". I would expect them to only be a bit lighter, and that's the only difference, if there are any difference at all.
You might also see that I am a fan of RX...

Couldn't leave it alone, so one more video - the same car with the exact same setup handles very differently in rallycross and in free roam/rally:

Supposedly, from what I've gathered, they're using a different tyre model for RX and for rally, with the RX one being much more refined since they've had more time with the actual RX drivers, as opposed to rally. Though I still feel like there might be more to this, perhaps even a bug or something like that.

You should also remember that a tyre for RX is made to work fine on gravel and fine on tarmac, not great on any of them. While the rally tyre is made for being very good at the surface you are racing on.

This is an aspect I think many forgets when looking at clips from the old days, and then try to replicate it in D4. I would think that in D4 we have a tyre for gravel, one for tarmac and one for snow (or maybe even one for each of the gravel events). Then we have an RX tyre as well. However, regardless of driving a 60's car, or an R5, you will have the modern tyres on the car. And the progression of tyre technology will also be a part of how the cars react.
I am fairly sure that the Gr.A cars don't have own tyres in D4, that is supposed to be the correct tyres from that era, they will be equipped with modern tyres, just like they would be in real life.

 

[Dennis May]

At least RX delivers good fun in multiplayer But yeah, I also feel that there is a huge handling difference between Rally and RX

 

[UMC 22]

You should also remember that a tyre for RX is made to work fine on gravel and fine on tarmac, not great on any of them. While the rally tyre is made for being very good at the surface you are racing on.

This is an aspect I think many forgets when looking at clips from the old days, and then try to replicate it in D4. I would think that in D4 we have a tyre for gravel, one for tarmac and one for snow (or maybe even one for each of the gravel events). Then we have an RX tyre as well. However, regardless of driving a 60's car, or an R5, you will have the modern tyres on the car. And the progression of tyre technology will also be a part of how the cars react.
I am fairly sure that the Gr.A cars don't have own tyres in D4, that is supposed to be the correct tyres from that era, they will be equipped with modern tyres, just like they would be in real life.

And this would explain why people are saying the handling is different between Dirtfish and rally... given the different surfaces in Dirtfish, you're probably on the RX tyres or rally multi-surface equivalents, not dedicated gravel or tarmac tyres.

One thing I don't get is all the DR comparisons. I mean, most of the discussions I bothered to read about DR physics claimed they weren't all that realistic, and the game was pretty much a sim-cade. (Albeit great fun regardless.) Yet loads of posts about D4 make direct comparisons as if DR had it bang on, and is the benchmark for rally sims.

I also wonder how many physics detractors have actually driven a real, fully fledged rally car in anger on a real rally course. That's the only way you can really make a direct and educated opinion about what's "realistic" and what's not. No offense, but comparing a game replay to real footage and crying foul because they don't look the same is pretty laughable.

Regardless, I don't really care about all this anyway. Fact is that I'm having great fun in D4 and am getting more than my £28 worth of entertainment out of it. Loving the enhanced career mode and team management, the stage generator works much better than I expected, and I like the random stuff, damage and reliability issues that occur during events. There are a few bugs I'd like to see fixed, but overall I think they've done a good job and have produced a very fun game.

 

[Case_]

Edited. Sorry. I'll shut up now. If a mod can delete this, please do.

 

[Case_]

Edited. Sorry. I'll shut up now. If a mod can delete this, please do.

 

[dcully]

I fail to see the benefit of the stage generator, ive seen the same part of stages 3, 4 even 5 times on some stages.
RallyX is good fun but rallying is just so bland compared to DR.

 

[Thomas Lambaerts]

Holy cow, did anyone else do the daily today? Don't know how long it still runs. But 13km long australia stage with the sierra cosworth. That thing breaks rear traction in 3rd gear.
My first encounter with rwd in D4. The sierra was a handfull in DR, but in D4 dear god. The added weight slinging that rear around is brutal. Understeer all day until you touch the loud pedal... It needs high revs though.

 

[Eckhart von Glan]

yesterday was a handful, too, longish australia stage, lots of rain. one could hardly see the road. i never made it to the end ... seems like they are very confident in their product, because these are not the kind of events to tantalize the casual gamer, i'd say.

 

[Matthew Allington]

I done the last 2 dailys myself. I thought that the Focus had far too much grip - more than once I basically rotated 135 degrees under braking but still managed to recover it. The Sierra, on the other hand, was an absolute joy!

The experience seems to vary wildly from car to car even within the same class - the Beemer is far more stable than I ever found it to be in DR, for example.

 

[Jan Larsen]

Right, 4 hours in. The game is well done, but when you discover stage parts being re-used several times on the same stages. Thats called jumping over the fence at the lowest point possible to save time and cash and not good enough Codemasters.
What I've noted thus far; Dirt Rally is better in physics and stages, but Dirt 4 has better career, graphics, cars. Both have dodgy menus. Testing continues.

 

[Ole Marius Myrvold]

I done the last 2 dailys myself. I thought that the Focus had far too much grip - more than once I basically rotated 135 degrees under braking but still managed to recover it.

I find the Focus to be extremely hard to drive in D4. In DR I could throw that car round just like I wanted at all times. There was no issues, the grip was amazing, the way it just pointed itself to a corner and stuck was a wow experience.
In D4, it's very hard to drive.

I really think driving styles also causes us to feel differently between different cars.

Right, 4 hours in. The game is well done, but when you discover stage parts being re-used several times on the same stages. Thats called jumping over the fence at the lowest point possible to save time and cash and not good enough Codemasters.
What I've noted thus far; Dirt Rally is better in physics and stages, but Dirt 4 has better career, graphics, cars. Both have dodgy menus. Testing continues.

I think that is somewhat down to the way the co-driver is done as well. There seems to be a triggerpoint for the pacenotes to come, that triggerpoint shows the end of the last "stage-bit" (what I call it), and start of the next. The way I see it, is that it is done this way to minimize the risk of bugs and issues when generating stages. Hopefully they will be able to add in new bits along the way to make for more variations. Of course, there has to be some sort of equation to figure out what bits fit with the previous one and so on as well. It is a quite complicated process.
This is also the reason why the pacenotes at the end of long straights comes to late. You hit the triggerpoint, but the "stage-bit" isn't any bigger than any other, and you suddenly have way to little time to prepare for the corner.
At least, this is my theory.

The stages in DR would logically be better and more detailed, as they were made completely by copying real stages. That is much more work... And, something they were asked (or told) by the FIA, not to do. Which is why they have not been able to recreate DR stages in D4 either.

 

[Akra]

I'm finding the stage generator varies massively per country too. Spain seems the worst. Very recognisable sections. The little town in the Spanish stages looks awful too. Like it was textured by the new guy. Very odd and low quality. Michigan not much better - long fast sweeping corner that's identical to the last. Wales seems the best so far, with Australia second. All stages need more variation. Not just in corners/sections, but in scenery. It's very very bland out there.

What I am finding is there's basically no jumps or 'extreme' sections anymore. When it says big jump, it's barely a jump. When it says jump, it isn't a jump. A crest is a tiny bump. Bumps are peddles. Narrow is losing a couple of cms off the side of the road.

Stage generator is a brilliant concept. Needs more sections, needs to unlink scenery to the sections, and needs more extreme sections. And needs to bin Spain - it's bloody terrible!

 

[Case_]

What I am finding is there's basically no jumps or 'extreme' sections anymore. When it says big jump, it's barely a jump. When it says jump, it isn't a jump. A crest is a tiny bump. Bumps are peddles. Narrow is losing a couple of cms off the side of the road.

To be fair, I still prefer this over the Airline Dirt we had going in Finland in DR.

 

[Eckhart von Glan]

Right, 4 hours in. The game is well done, but when you discover stage parts being re-used several times on the same stages. Thats called jumping over the fence at the lowest point possible to save time and cash and not good enough Codemasters.
What I've noted thus far; Dirt Rally is better in physics and stages, but Dirt 4 has better career, graphics, cars. Both have dodgy menus. Testing continues.

sums up my ideas so far nicely. What I really liked so far: you need to get a new co-driver to get your proper country translation (plus: the German one is dead ugly, but has a nice accent, lol) and his name appears on your side window.
I loved the Spanish rally, driving through villages is back, hooray!
The fog is brilliant, as is the whole job of repairing your car, love it.
Also nice: If you saved a rally somewhere between stages, you cannout use that car in any other rally because it is supposed to be engaged in the rally you saved. little trick to stop you from saving mid-rally but rather go on and on and on.
Furthermore, the damage model seems to be more complex than in DR.
Like Ole and others, I also find the variation from car to car between the two games "interesting" one keeps wondering which one is closer to home.
Not well done: The rain on the windows is really too distracting, at least in my real life car and living area, visibility in heavy rain is far far better with wipers on than what i experienced in virtual australia and/or wales.

 

[Ole Marius Myrvold]

he little town in the Spanish stages looks awful too. Like it was textured by the new guy. Very odd and low quality.
When it says big jump, it's barely a jump. When it says jump, it isn't a jump. A crest is a tiny bump. Bumps are peddles.

I feel the fun factor of having a little town with narrow sharp corners give more plus than the strange towns pulls it down. But that's just me
That I agree with, it seems like there is little air.

Also nice: If you saved a rally somewhere between stages, you cannout use that car in any other rally because it is supposed to be engaged in the rally you saved. little trick to stop you from saving mid-rally but rather go on and on and on.

Oooh. Nice little detail! Me likey!

 

[Eckhart von Glan]

just had my stage do me a wales stage mid-length at highest complexity, midday sun. awesome! i could hardly see the track in the shadows and had forgotten where i had mapped my light to, lol. Imagining this was just generated on the spot, still dumbfounds me. I still haven't figured out "my stage". I saved this one and downloaded two from the dirt4 homepage. Where do i find them / in which part of the game can i use them again? i might also dip into the online rallying one of these days or we should set up sth. informal here. Anyone yet done one of the online events with 8 players which start every 15 minutes and which are set up by codemasters?

 

[Ole Marius Myrvold]

just had my stage do me a wales stage mid-length at highest complexity, midday sun. awesome! i could hardly see the track in the shadows and had forgotten where i had mapped my light to, lol. Imagining this was just generated on the spot, still dumbfounds me. I still haven't figured out "my stage". I saved this one and downloaded two from the dirt4 homepage. Where do i find them / in which part of the game can i use them again? i might also dip into the online rallying one of these days or we should set up sth. informal here. Anyone yet done one of the online events with 8 players which start every 15 minutes and which are set up by codemasters?

I think I should make a sticky "FAQ" post in the coming week.

The competetive-thing, with "pro-tour" are events that starts at intervals as long as there are more than 4 driver in the session. This is the "esports" of DiRT 4, with divisions and tiers, where you get plus points for good results, and minus points for bad results. Community-Events are the daily, weekly and monthly as we know from DiRT Rally.
Multiplayer, or "Jam-Session" is the PvP sessions you can set up with friends or randoms. Max 8 players, no scoring or anything, though you will earn money and RP towards the career stuff. You can set up rally, landrush, RX or Historic Rally there. All starts at the same time in rallying. But, again - max 8 players.

The "max 8 player" thing is what makes it hard to make any informal RD event (like a rally club). It would've been awesome to have it like RSRBR where we decided to meet up at e.g 19:00 GMT on a Tuesday, and do a rally or two with 25-30 drivers. But this is not a possibility atm.
We are 6 Norwegian friends that own the game, and just in our "gang" we are filling 75% of a session...

Hope that answered a bit?