True,it's a fact,if you want and can,buy a steering wheel otherwise accept this disadvantage and do the best you can
Simracing With A Gamepad
- Thread starter Davide Nativo
- Start date
Ok this turned into a long post. I think the issue here stems from 3 things:
1) a need/want/afford dilemma
2) a misunderstanding on both sides
3) fairness in multiplayer
1) need/want/afford:
COULD you play sims with a gamepad (or "do you NEED to play with a wheel")? This thread is proof enough that it's possible with a gamepad to varying degrees of success. Just like drivers with a wheel, some are bad, some are good and a few are aliens.
SHOULD you play sims with a gamepad (or "do you WANT to play with a wheel")? I believe this ultimately delves into whether you can meet all of the following conditions:
1) Money to afford a wheel and pedal setup
2) Physical space to put a racing rig
3) No social issues involved: wife/girlfriend disputes, worried about feeling judged by family/friends, etc.
Based on the comments in this thread, most that are pro-gamepad are so because at least one of these conditions can't be met. Many have stated that, if the opportunity presented itself, they'd choose the wheel over the gamepad...why all this hype over a wheel? My personal take on it:
If you've ever imagined being a race car driver, whether as a kid or an adult, most likely it wasn't posing with a gamepad/keyboard in hand...using a wheel fulfills that fantasy much more than a gamepad ever could: it gives you more of that adrenaline rush you craved in your dreams. Again, not saying you can't get that rush with a gamepad, but add in using both feet for the pedals (especially if you're heel-toe shifting in a H-pattern car) and it becomes a full body activity that's typically a more visceral experience than a gamepad. Force Feedback also plays a crucial role here. Feeling the car's inertia and interaction with the road further adds to that feeling, call it a rush, immersion, fantasy, whatever...but it makes you physically interact with the game in ways that pushing a small joystick or d-pad with your thumb could never do.
Reading what I said above might push some people on both sides emotionally, which lead into issue #2:
2) Misunderstanding:
Now don't get me wrong, there are legitimately elitist wheel owners out there...but for the most part (and from those I've encountered over the years), what gamepad users interpret as hostility and snobbery, is probably more like wheel users just trying to explain why a wheel works better, feels better and is more exciting in a racing sim. Most wheel users understand if you can't afford one right now...hell, many of us WERE avid gamepad/keyboard users in the past, who eventually saved up enough coin to buy a wheel and realized the benefits...I most certainly was: In years past I played Grand Prix 3, X-car, rFactor 1 and several other sim-racing titles on PC with a keyboard or a gamepad. Fast forward to today playing Automobilista (which is a heavily modified rFactor 1) on my current sim rig and there's no comparison...not that I wasn't having fun with a keyboard/gamepad...but it's an experience that's hard to describe if you haven't had it.
About 8 months ago, my wheel got ruined from water damage after 5 years of exclusive use, so I raced using a flightstick and a throttle for about 4 months. I managed to get pretty good at it (using a few assists) and enjoyed it after awhile, but then I got a new wheel and it reminded me again of what I was missing.There's a learning curve moving to a wheel just like with any new interface...but once you get into the groove, you'll understand what we mean.
3) Fairness in Multiplayer
Not gonna go into actual multiplayer races, as there are most times rules on the server on whether or not you can use ABS, TC, etc. However in global hotlapping, are you really the better driver when you're faster than the guy with a wheel, but need to use assists on a gamepad, when the car in question has no factory installed ABS or TC? In my opinion, global lap times are only legitimate if all competitors are playing on equal footing in terms of the car's actual limitations. For example: Having the fastest time because you're able to accelerate without wheelspin due to having TC assist on in a 70's Porsche, when some wheel users are driving the car as it is IRL with no assists, is not a fair assessment. It would be fair if it were a 2002 Formula 1 car which actually had TC installed, whether you used gamepad, keyboard, flightstick or wheel. Then again, the non-wheel options don't have FFB fighting them on turns so that's another argument for fairness.
In summary: Wheel users - live and let live. If, after trying to convince gamepad users, they still have no desire to switch, then that's their prerogative. As long as they're proficient enough to not wreck others in a race, fine by me. Gamepad users - most of us are not judging you; some of us just wanna spread the joy so that one day, if you have the means to, you might give it a go with a wheel.
1) a need/want/afford dilemma
2) a misunderstanding on both sides
3) fairness in multiplayer
1) need/want/afford:
COULD you play sims with a gamepad (or "do you NEED to play with a wheel")? This thread is proof enough that it's possible with a gamepad to varying degrees of success. Just like drivers with a wheel, some are bad, some are good and a few are aliens.
SHOULD you play sims with a gamepad (or "do you WANT to play with a wheel")? I believe this ultimately delves into whether you can meet all of the following conditions:
1) Money to afford a wheel and pedal setup
2) Physical space to put a racing rig
3) No social issues involved: wife/girlfriend disputes, worried about feeling judged by family/friends, etc.
Based on the comments in this thread, most that are pro-gamepad are so because at least one of these conditions can't be met. Many have stated that, if the opportunity presented itself, they'd choose the wheel over the gamepad...why all this hype over a wheel? My personal take on it:
If you've ever imagined being a race car driver, whether as a kid or an adult, most likely it wasn't posing with a gamepad/keyboard in hand...using a wheel fulfills that fantasy much more than a gamepad ever could: it gives you more of that adrenaline rush you craved in your dreams. Again, not saying you can't get that rush with a gamepad, but add in using both feet for the pedals (especially if you're heel-toe shifting in a H-pattern car) and it becomes a full body activity that's typically a more visceral experience than a gamepad. Force Feedback also plays a crucial role here. Feeling the car's inertia and interaction with the road further adds to that feeling, call it a rush, immersion, fantasy, whatever...but it makes you physically interact with the game in ways that pushing a small joystick or d-pad with your thumb could never do.
Reading what I said above might push some people on both sides emotionally, which lead into issue #2:
2) Misunderstanding:
Now don't get me wrong, there are legitimately elitist wheel owners out there...but for the most part (and from those I've encountered over the years), what gamepad users interpret as hostility and snobbery, is probably more like wheel users just trying to explain why a wheel works better, feels better and is more exciting in a racing sim. Most wheel users understand if you can't afford one right now...hell, many of us WERE avid gamepad/keyboard users in the past, who eventually saved up enough coin to buy a wheel and realized the benefits...I most certainly was: In years past I played Grand Prix 3, X-car, rFactor 1 and several other sim-racing titles on PC with a keyboard or a gamepad. Fast forward to today playing Automobilista (which is a heavily modified rFactor 1) on my current sim rig and there's no comparison...not that I wasn't having fun with a keyboard/gamepad...but it's an experience that's hard to describe if you haven't had it.
About 8 months ago, my wheel got ruined from water damage after 5 years of exclusive use, so I raced using a flightstick and a throttle for about 4 months. I managed to get pretty good at it (using a few assists) and enjoyed it after awhile, but then I got a new wheel and it reminded me again of what I was missing.There's a learning curve moving to a wheel just like with any new interface...but once you get into the groove, you'll understand what we mean.
3) Fairness in Multiplayer
Not gonna go into actual multiplayer races, as there are most times rules on the server on whether or not you can use ABS, TC, etc. However in global hotlapping, are you really the better driver when you're faster than the guy with a wheel, but need to use assists on a gamepad, when the car in question has no factory installed ABS or TC? In my opinion, global lap times are only legitimate if all competitors are playing on equal footing in terms of the car's actual limitations. For example: Having the fastest time because you're able to accelerate without wheelspin due to having TC assist on in a 70's Porsche, when some wheel users are driving the car as it is IRL with no assists, is not a fair assessment. It would be fair if it were a 2002 Formula 1 car which actually had TC installed, whether you used gamepad, keyboard, flightstick or wheel. Then again, the non-wheel options don't have FFB fighting them on turns so that's another argument for fairness.
In summary: Wheel users - live and let live. If, after trying to convince gamepad users, they still have no desire to switch, then that's their prerogative. As long as they're proficient enough to not wreck others in a race, fine by me. Gamepad users - most of us are not judging you; some of us just wanna spread the joy so that one day, if you have the means to, you might give it a go with a wheel.
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Andy_J
I hate Race cheats ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
You are a nasty piece of work and no mistake.Heh...Many words to say - gamepad players are simply stupid and have no imagination
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I'm not sure, is this supposed to be a joke?Heh...Many words to say - gamepad players are simply stupid and have no imagination
Heh...Many words to say - gamepad players are simply stupid and have no imagination
I never said or meant anything like that; you are not helping the discussion at all. Some of us have been trying to bridge the gap and all you seem to be interested in doing is trying to divide us even more. You are acting exactly like the elitist wheel users that gamepad users hate to be around.
Yusuf Macit
Lost but Won
Hey there,
I owned Assetto Corsa since 2014/2015 and i played the sim for really long hours with my gamepad (Logitech F310), about 600 hours of driving. And at the end of those 600 hours of driving, i was able to compete with drivers who owned wheel sets. And i was able to beat most of the grid in online servers. (Fair and square) I usually placed around p5. If not me, my time was at least around top 5.
However, long, endurance races were almost impossible to drive with little error. After one hour or so, my fingers felt like they were dying of pain. Occasionally in the race, i had the urge to release my index finger from the gas button so i can relax it a little bit. And that, obviously used to cost me time.
Even though i was merely driving with a gamepad, i had a ton of great moments and memories. To race with a gamepad is quite difficult in Assetto Corsa, takes a lot of time to get used to everything. But to cruise around, and by that i mean to go on a track day with friends or alone is a great joy.
I now own a DFGT, it is obviously totally different experience. And i've added another 400+ hours to my general Assetto Corsa experience. I would really like to have a wheel set with clutch and H shifter, which im thinking of getting soon, but thats another matter.
With the wheel set, i thought there would be an instant improvement in my laptimes, but thats not quite what happened. In fact, my laptimes had gone worse by plus 2 or 3 seconds. I was truly struggling to control the car. I could not save many of the slips, which i could save easily with my gamepad. It took me a few months to get used to the wheel.
However, when i did got used to it. It obviously felt much more enjoyable than the gamepad. I was almost feeling the car, almost. My gas and brake inputs were in complete harmony with the wheel and had become much better in time. And now, i really feel like im getting the most out of this sim after playing it for a thousand hours
This was a great topic to talk about. I have much more to share, but havent got enough time as i need to leave work for home. Thanks.
I owned Assetto Corsa since 2014/2015 and i played the sim for really long hours with my gamepad (Logitech F310), about 600 hours of driving. And at the end of those 600 hours of driving, i was able to compete with drivers who owned wheel sets. And i was able to beat most of the grid in online servers. (Fair and square) I usually placed around p5. If not me, my time was at least around top 5.
However, long, endurance races were almost impossible to drive with little error. After one hour or so, my fingers felt like they were dying of pain. Occasionally in the race, i had the urge to release my index finger from the gas button so i can relax it a little bit. And that, obviously used to cost me time.
Even though i was merely driving with a gamepad, i had a ton of great moments and memories. To race with a gamepad is quite difficult in Assetto Corsa, takes a lot of time to get used to everything. But to cruise around, and by that i mean to go on a track day with friends or alone is a great joy.
I now own a DFGT, it is obviously totally different experience. And i've added another 400+ hours to my general Assetto Corsa experience. I would really like to have a wheel set with clutch and H shifter, which im thinking of getting soon, but thats another matter.
With the wheel set, i thought there would be an instant improvement in my laptimes, but thats not quite what happened. In fact, my laptimes had gone worse by plus 2 or 3 seconds. I was truly struggling to control the car. I could not save many of the slips, which i could save easily with my gamepad. It took me a few months to get used to the wheel.
However, when i did got used to it. It obviously felt much more enjoyable than the gamepad. I was almost feeling the car, almost. My gas and brake inputs were in complete harmony with the wheel and had become much better in time. And now, i really feel like im getting the most out of this sim after playing it for a thousand hours
This was a great topic to talk about. I have much more to share, but havent got enough time as i need to leave work for home. Thanks.
FernandoAFM
The CP Driver
The wheel for me became a necessity when my parents realized I had troubles with the keyboard, mouse and gamepads. I have cerebral palsy and the fine movements those things require are simply too much for me lol
I’ve been playing with a wheel since I was 5 and today I drive an unadapted Mazda CX-5 to work every day. I’m pretty confident I wouldn’t be driving today if it weren’t for those years and years of practice. I don’t mean it in terms of physics, but rather in terms of teaching my body the essential driving movements.
Thanks sim racing, from the bottom of my heart.
I’ve been playing with a wheel since I was 5 and today I drive an unadapted Mazda CX-5 to work every day. I’m pretty confident I wouldn’t be driving today if it weren’t for those years and years of practice. I don’t mean it in terms of physics, but rather in terms of teaching my body the essential driving movements.
Thanks sim racing, from the bottom of my heart.
I'ts not My job to help anybody, but if You read all posts You see - here they are couple of people who after hours with gamepad try a wheel and they understand differences (in plus) and much more guys which have noi idea what wheel gives in simracing, beacouse the dont use it, but then know better what for simracing better is, and ofcourse they mean - gamepad is better beacouse ist cheaper and You can play other games with, so they mean - for simracing man need nothing more. And no one, no one can says - it is not true, beacous they know always better, what true is...I name that - stupidity. Sorry but it is. Sad but true.
You need nothing more than any form of controller for simracing or any game, it isn't stupidity. Some people choose to not spend upwards of 100€ for a device that can only be used in a pretty small selection of games. Some people just don't see the advantage of being, in some cases not even, faster than other people for that amount of money and space taken
1. Used G25 or thrustmaster T150 cost no more like 50-70 Euro.
2. They have space for PC and 40 inch monitor and no space for small wheel on the desk...Yeah...
3. If You dont wanna use right tool to right job You can wanna call You as simracer, do You?
It's like...I wanna be a dog trainer but...I don't have a dog... And yes, thinking like this - this is stupid
2. They have space for PC and 40 inch monitor and no space for small wheel on the desk...Yeah...
3. If You dont wanna use right tool to right job You can wanna call You as simracer, do You?
It's like...I wanna be a dog trainer but...I don't have a dog... And yes, thinking like this - this is stupid
Why don't you speak for your self? Not everybody has the same resources/space/money.1. Used G25 or thrustmaster T150 cost no more like 50-70 Euro.
2. They have space for PC and 40 inch monitor and no space for small wheel on the desk...Yeah...
3. If You dont wanna use right tool to right job You can wanna call You as simracer, do You?
It's like...I wanna be a dog trainer but...I don't have a dog... And yes, thinking like this - this is stupid
To 3. You are simulating a car driving on a circuit, so why don't you book a track day? Every simulation is just a more or less bad copy of life. At the VW showroom in Berlin is a 60.000€ simulator with motion rig, VR and everything else. Did I feel like driving a real car sitting in it? No, it was close but not the reality of course. Was it fun anyways? Hell yeah!
Everybody have other resources/space/money but...I write this couple days before - they have money for PC/konsole, gamepads, monitors (sometimes 2 or more) and dont have money/resources/space for tiny wheel...Nice joke
To3. From wher You know I don't drive track days? Or more. I don't know so, don't judge me on yourself
And yes, it's true, simulator is the only simulator. Couple thing to simulate but not everything, because for now it's immpossible.
Let's say this - more guys are only players, and they say always - You dont need more like gamepad to drive simracing. But it's not a simracing. it's just playng. Like I play Elite Dangerous without joystick iand throttle controler. It's like driving a car and...driving a car. Evryone whos' have driving licence can and doo driving a car. But if Your Mom try a 300HP car on track withot a speed limit to drive... She will be death sudenly probably
But is still a car driver as I'm...But I drive 300HP car everyday...Sometimes without speed limitation We are same type of drivers still? Or not? Not. Tht's the difference. Some guys are player some are simracers. First one need no more, just a gamepad. But can't say to everybody - You don't need more to be simracer! yes, You need a f..n wheel and pedals. Like Mom of yours need much more experience do drive fast with 300HP car to the limit! But I know - You dont agree I agree with some points of you but not with calling people who don't buy a wheel idiotsEverybody have other resources/space/money but...I write this couple days before - they have money for PC/konsole, gamepads, monitors (sometimes 2 or more) and dont have money/resources/space for tiny wheel...Nice joke
To3. From wher You know I don't drive track days? Or more. I don't know so, don't judge me on yourself
And yes, it's true, simulator is the only simulator. Couple thing to simulate but not everything, because for now it's immpossible.
Let's say this - more guys are only players, and they say always - You dont need more like gamepad to drive simracing. But it's not a simracing. it's just playng. Like I play Elite Dangerous without joystick iand throttle controler. It's like driving a car and...driving a car. Evryone whos' have driving licence can and doo driving a car. But if Your Mom try a 300HP car on track withot a speed limit to drive... She will be death sudenly probably
Andy_J
I hate Race cheats ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
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So, slooowly we reach an agreement
And I call - stupidity, not personaly a idiots. An idiot say - for simracing You don't even need a PC or console Stupid is to say you need no moro, only a PC (console) and gamepad to do exactly same thing as someone who have a wheel. Like Austin has to write - there are some guys, who are really fast on gamepad but it is exception, not a rule.All this thread and discusion remind me something other situation but in couple point very similar. A bike helmet quality discusion. Yes, some people says - just buy this for 100 Euro and it is good like 3 or 5 more expensive Arai or AGV...Yes, if You simply need a helmet beacouse regulations, not beacouse you think about your safety. Right?A good helmet is a necessity, a wheel notSo, slooowly we reach an agreement
For scooter? Don't think so, You need 300 Euro Arai Helmet
I've got 2 wheels, but i don't have the space to set them up in my current situation so i sim/game with a gamepad. Some of the comments in this topic are truly idiotic against pad users. Being quick with a pad is a skillset beyond the imagination of some, evidently.
Would an FPS with a rifle controller + pedals instantly make you a better player than someone using keyboard + mouse? Of course not, it depends on the player's circumstances and preferences. I think most people would suck using the "more realistic" layout in this case.
Besides, who's it hurting? Most racing leagues don't let you participate without a wheel + pedals and arguably nothing is a Sim if you're playing it on your own as all the competitors follow algorithms rather than human inconsistancy. So why the hatred toward those who choose to use a more convenient method, when you're all in the same boat of playing against bots?
Would an FPS with a rifle controller + pedals instantly make you a better player than someone using keyboard + mouse? Of course not, it depends on the player's circumstances and preferences. I think most people would suck using the "more realistic" layout in this case.
Besides, who's it hurting? Most racing leagues don't let you participate without a wheel + pedals and arguably nothing is a Sim if you're playing it on your own as all the competitors follow algorithms rather than human inconsistancy. So why the hatred toward those who choose to use a more convenient method, when you're all in the same boat of playing against bots?
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