Simlab GT1 - Buttkickers

Discussion in 'Sim Racing Hardware' started by Joao Bastos, Jun 4, 2018.

  1. Joao Bastos

    Joao Bastos

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    hello.. i have a simlab GT1 cockpit and i like to add some buttkickers /transducers..

    maybe 4 transducers on chassis mode for start.. i hope you can help me better..
    i have about 300 euros to spend for now.. maybe i can upgrade in the future..
    i woul like to have on on the shifter too..(maybe a small one i think)

    i need advice on:
    -sound card
    -transducer
    - amplifier/es( i saw a lot of them with two channels i could buy 2 but if i want onther upgrade o woul need to buy another.. maybe a amp. with 3 or four channels?

    Wheeldeck-V5-15-600x600.jpg
     
  2. Joao Bastos

    Joao Bastos

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    @Mr Latte hope you can help me with your wisdom :)
     
  3. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte

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    Hi,

    My position is as such, like building a good PC for a longterm level of performance/compatibility.

    Look upon the audio amplifier used as a Motherboard or CPU. In that, rather than buy a cheap option to suit now. It's wise to consider spending more to have greater compatibility & performance including future upgradeability. Basically, put the money into an iNuke DSP 1000 amp as it will power larger and more upmarket tactile units on the market.

    You can then start your tactile journey with units like the Reckhorn or ADX which are not that expensive. Consider either stereo L/R in seat only or mono in seat and pedals. Easy to swap around with 80/20.

    Its then possible to get the most out of tactile you use or fine tune via the DSP options the amp has and this can be covered with help from other owners or myself.

    Starter Combo:
    (Will be above your budget)

    1) Asus DGX Soundcard & SSW
    2) Behringer iNuke DSP 1000 Amp
    3) Reckhorn or ADX tactile (ref budget)
    4) Required Cables & Speaker Cable
    5) Isolation & Vibration Control Materials* (*user pref but often important)
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2018
  4. Joao Bastos

    Joao Bastos

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    thanks.. that amp will alow to conect how many transducers? it has to be good is a lot o money :)
     
  5. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte

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    I dont know what region you live?

    It is a 2 channel amp (powering 2 tactile) but even with recent price hikes in the last 18 months (UK/EU) I would very much recommend you buy it over an amp like the SMSL 98 at about 1/2 the price. Even if it meant waiting a further month to have the funds.

    Once going tactile though, your rig will feel lifeless without it.
    So often people want to extend or upgrade over time.
     
  6. Joao Bastos

    Joao Bastos

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    i am from Portugal.. it cost 158€ so in order to use 4 or 6 transducers i will need 2 or 3 amp..thats a lot of money..i belive you..but its seams a bit too mutch.. it is not too mutch power? do you recomend how many transducers? for best experience..
     
  7. Hiro Abe

    Hiro Abe
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    I can say, from personal experience, a 1000DSP amp driving two ADX transducers is a nice combo.

    You don't have to buy everything at once. I was running a two transducer set up for a bit (seat/pedal) and it provided a nice experience. Like anything with this crazy hobby, you can go nuts on tactile alone. :D
     
  8. Joao Bastos

    Joao Bastos

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    for 2 transduceres do we need so mutch amp?
     
  9. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte

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    The amp is the most versatile in the market that it will power 2ohm, 4ohm or 8ohm units.
    Yes, you can wire 4x units to operate like 2x sets of stereo (4x 4ohm units, wired as 2x 8ohm channels). The amp will power these fine, but this is not the same as having 4x independent channels. Which would require a 4 channel amp or two by stereo amps.

    I raise a point often, as there is a misconception with tactile that more in "quantity" is the better route to go than the actual alternative path of placing "quality/performance" of the units used as more important and then expand this. My own experience relates to confirming for myself the best experiences with tactile can come from units that can reproduce the lowest bass frequencies. Unit performance for me is more important than numbers installed.

    Small and most common units do not achieve this, regardless of how many are installed. When it comes to reproducing effects it makes all the difference but to fully appreciate frequencies below say 30Hz also requires having tactile models like the BK Advance or larger.

    When you see posts of people stating how strong their tactile is yet using the common sub £100/$100 units. Or any sim company selling tactile packages of cheap amps/transducers.

    Let me be clear in stating, they are not feeling half the energy or the best energy many effects can have as simply they are not capable of reproducing those lowest frequencies with sufficient power. When you move up to the bigger more capable units you then realise the major differences or added sense of involvement, enjoyment and depth they can bring.

    Cheap tactile can be enjoyable, to experience it actually working can be a big add-on and for some it is enough however for many they then want to gradually grow and expand the enjoyment it brings.

    Amps can be added in time, you can grow a tactile installation in time or just buy cheap.
    The choice is yours. Yet the experience of having one really good capable unit under a seat compared to 4x cheap units are very different..
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2018
  10. Joao Bastos

    Joao Bastos

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    well.. cant argue with that.. i prefer better.. and upgrade in the future.. so my question is:
    2 transducer its out of the question.. minimum 4 and then maybe one or two more..
    so should i keep with the iNuke DSP 1000? and buy two? or is another model with 4 outputs etc? for me if its possible i woul like to keep the minimum hardware.. if i could use only one amp better
     
  11. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte

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    They never made a 4 channel version with the DSP.
    I would focus on discovering what tactile suit your own needs or level of performance that would satisfy you. Yes its possible to spend 1500 Euro or more on a mid-high performance tactile rig with 4x operational channels and the amps etc needed to do such. However tactile unlike many other areas of immersion does not evolve so much. The best models have been around for well over 10 years.

    I would advise you to get 1x amp, buy a single Reckhorn unit.I don't see the ADX being much better but such can cost quite a bit more on this side of the Atlantic. The BK Mini are quite good but really the BK Advance is so, so much better for the more serious or performance seeking user at about 2x the price.

    The main issue is that over here UK/EU regions the BK Advance model is much harder to obtain. So quite often people import it from PartsExpress.com or via ebay with international shipping and no added import/tax/duties.

    Look, I continue to learn more on this subject, plodding about with different things. Usually as in the past much is by my own self-learning and experiences. I'm not what I class myself as an expert/guru as some refer, or deem my views to be always the best advice, fully correct or anything special. Although I do have a lot of experience with tactile, the various models and general messing about with such.

     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2018
  12. Joao Bastos

    Joao Bastos

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    i understand.. and your experience on a aluminium cocpkit.. what do you think? i will start with the DSP1000.. maybe with 4 transducer.. left and right) what do you think?
    for the transducer you do not mention aura? you do not recomend?
     
  13. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte

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    ADX is the new Aura Pro but I see limited potential differences in the low-end bass abilities of this unit over the much cheaper available Reckhorn BS-200i model. A full comparison test would be needed but one maybe has a slightly larger/more powerful magnet than the other. One may bring stronger mid-range (40Hz) or increased detail in higher (60+ Hz) too.

    If it was me I would get the amp and compare these two models first before determining buying multiples. Always easy to return one or sell it on. The BK Mini has much more punch than these units but really I try to recommend users discover for themselves how each feels as I once done from general curiosity or hobbyist perspective. As this way you yourself then know which is the unit to consider buying multiples of.

    I do not have experience with 8020 personally.
     
  14. Joao Bastos

    Joao Bastos

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    one more question.. the lower HZ is limited by the amp?whats the diference in 20Hz and 150hz for example.. and if i have a transducer cabable of 10hz to 150hz could my amp not be able to give the necessary HZ to the transducer? hope you understand.. just for curiosity..
     
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  15. Andrew_WOT

    Andrew_WOT

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  16. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte

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    Its required by both the amp and the unit.
    Amps that are best for tactile generally are amps used for powering large bass drivers or subwoofers. As these, unlike typical stereo amps, are focused on low Hz capabilities.

    With tactile you wont feel much above 90Hz-100Hz it depends on your installation, the materials but really frequencies at this level are more like a phones vibration in energy/strength. Strong bass starts to drop off around 50Hz.

    The iNuke DSP range is manufactured for this, it is also proven as a very capable performing range for subwoofers in home cinema as well as music professionals using large subs.

    The audio hearing range is measured from 20Hz - 20Khz
    Some amps will only even start to deliver good energy closer to 30Hz or 40Hz as noted earlier. Yes they may be rated as supporting from 20Hz but that does not mean they will sufficiently deliver strong energy at such or with no stress. Speakers and music or general audio, unlike tactile effects, do not constantly use low frequencies or those below 20Hz. Please keep that in mind as tactile can stress an amplifier a lot more than typical audio.

    A reason for amps not needing to deliver a lot of energy under 40Hz is that many cheap amps will likely be used with speakers that may not even go below 40Hz range. For example a speaker rated from 75Hz - 20,000 Hz, it does not need an amp with good energy below 30Hz or 20Hz. Yet a speaker is not a tactile unit. Tactile have a specific purpose working within a very limited freqwuency range. Sure, some units may also be rated with specs of operating from as low as 5Hz or 10Hz but I can 100% assure you that most common models under the $100 / £100 struggle to maintain composure or bring strong energy below 35Hz. They are at their best in the 35-50Hz range with decent bass upto to 60Hz and then finer detailing above this.

    If you only seek entry level or common tactile then cheaper amps may suffice, however if you want an amp that can handle more professional or capable units in the future then thats a decision to consider getting the iNuke DSP model.

    I show this image of a frequency chart as a guide.
    [​IMG]

    Look at the size of the squares/grid for the frequencies, at the moment ignore the coloured lines.
    This helps determine the energy bandwidth they hold and therefore require MUCH greater levels of energy to be reproduced sufficiently. Compare the size of the strongest region for most common units in the 40-50Hz range to the size of 10-20Hz. Do you see how much more this is.

    Compare also the distance of 10Hz to 30Hz to say 40Hz - 100Hz. One is only 20Hz variation the other is 3x that with 60Hz. Yet look again at the size/bandwidth differences.

    Having an amplifier that can deliver such benefits in power/energy with these lowest frequencies do not generally come cheap. That is why such amps or higher end tactile that can properly deliver these frequencies are desired but generally also cost more.

    As a perspective of my own experiences and collecting feedback from other people having done frequency tests with various models over several years. Here are points to compare for popular units and their lowest Hz capabilities/performances

    Lines:
    Green = ADX / Reckhorn
    Blue = BK Mini lfe
    Yellow = BK Advance
    Red = BK LFE

    So i hope you see how far off the general units are from the strongest BK LFE or even the very capable BK Advance models. It's really upto you as the user to determine what performance level you want to attain and buy 1 better unit to start with that will still vibrate the whole rig or go with a lower spec unit and install 4 of them with two budget amps.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2018
  17. Joao Bastos

    Joao Bastos

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    Hello..Should i use simvibe? I play diferente games so i assume i will need diferent profiles.
     
  18. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte

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    Best for Simvibe users like Andrew or others to answer this or that use it more often than I do across different sims. I just waffle on with long posts and talk crap about hardware or general things tactile related to help get my day in.

    He could perhaps advise you how to get around the piston pang issues with using Simvibe and the Mini lfe when powered with the SMSL he once used. If you want the most punch for limited money then that's what the Mini lfe models bring compared to ADX or Reckhorn. Or he can tell you all about the Crown amp he keeps reminding me of, that he deems is better than the iNuke DSP models and show/explain why it is.

    Im sure though, with him using these for so long he has an excellent understanding of Simvibes settings and their operation. Being able to offer you plenty of advice for superduper performance and different profiles in various sims or individual cars. Maybe he or someone else would be glad to even share these with you and all here?



    Your welcome btw for the time and effort put into the detailed responses previously given.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2018
  19. Andrew_WOT

    Andrew_WOT

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    Dude, seriously, what is your problem, did I step on your toes somewhere?:O_o:
     
  20. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte

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    Come now, dont be shy...
    You have in the past plenty yes. So feel free to share and offer your own expertise here or personal experiences. I am interested to learn more of your Simvibe settings and recommendations. I also want to hear all about your Crown amp you bring up in several iNuke threads I post in but you give little details on why it's so good.

    Whats the problem, you are a longtem Simvibe and tactile user.

    .
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2018
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