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SimHub Shakeit Bass Shaker V3 BETA - Discussion

Discussion in 'Sim Racing Hardware' started by Mr Latte, Apr 10, 2019.

  1. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte
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    Just an attempt in doing a thread to start discussing the controls, the setup for creating effects for the new Shakeit V3 Beta. Wotever (developer) has provided links to this in the Discord channel. Please note that this is not in any way an official thread for help from the developer or a place to use to contact him. :)

    I do not attempt, to take away from the developer but if anything this thread may help alleviate some common questions he may get. Curious to see if people want to chat about or share different attempts at creating effects.

    What I would like to share is the testing I am doing with the new tactile exciters I recently purchased and discovering how 6 of these could be used on the back of the seat. Ideally as this software makes it easy to control placing effects to the different channels.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019
  2. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte
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    I will post some early settings that I am messing about with.

    For now, I am sharing simple images of my own settings. These are being done on the (Dayton Exciters) that I recently discussed in the "General Tactile Thread" and testing. So I cannot be certain how they will feel on other units or models of tactile. You may need to fine-tune and discover your own volume settings that you like.

    The objective is we can share, discuss and seek to improve settings that may work well.

    6 Channel Configuration Test
    I have an ASUS DGX soundcard configured for 6 channels and have the software using the "Sound Output" controls to enable "Per Effect" volume. In this screen, you can test units and then place effects on different channels.

    You can enjoy this software with only a single tactile unit but this is an experiment I am doing for fun to see what can be achieved with these budget tactile when we get creative. I love the idea and possibilities to place specific effects to individual units. While it is possible to have an effect output overall units, we can have a clearer representation of some effects when we limit how many or what effects we combine onto channels.

    [​IMG]
    While the software is going to enable saving of profiles, I am not sure if this works fully yet or if the Beta has issues with different setup and channel configurations people will have.

    If you have an effect you want on specific channels (assuming you have multiple units installed) it is very simple to grasp. None of the Simvibe CM/EM nonsense or back/forth over screens.

    You can if you wish, set different volume settings for the "per effect" control here.

    [​IMG]
    SOUND OUTPUT: Example of the controls.
    Here we can set an effect to work on specific channels and with its own volume control.



    I will try to offer some help along the way and maybe update this thread at a later time to improve it and make it easier for people to start enjoying this awesome software.

    If you enjoy tactile, I can only encourage you to try this and to kindly reward the developer with a donation.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019
  3. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte
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    *Early test/settings, these may not be ideal for everyone.
    These are the first batch of settings I came up with after only a few hours messing around. I am certain better can be achieved but its maybe help to some to get started with.

    Assetto Corsa was used for these tests...


    Tip:
    Test each effect individually with no other effects operating.
    Later when you have multiple effects running you can balance the volumes of each to your own preference.

    Please note that you may need very different "Volume Settings" however the frequencies used should work on most budget/basic tactile hardware.

    I will place some notes with each effect and will update this post with improved settings or indeed settings that people share and rate as working well. This means if the thread grows this will be an easy place to find settings for effects that people are enjoying on the hardware they have.

    GEAR SHIFT:
    [​IMG]
    I am trying two layers, the second acting as a harmonic of the first to smooth off its sensation.
    You can try this effect working on multiple channels. Use more volume on the channels you want for its primary force and reduce its volume on additional channels if you want. This can give a wider dispersion of the effect being felt without having to crank the volume high.



    ACCELERATION G-FORCE:
    [​IMG]
    I am attempting here to use two layers for this effect to give a feeling of inertia and then a second layer for longer operation. This effect is good for feeling coming out of corners. What I believe works well for this effect is using very low Hz.

    The problem is different units will vary in what the limits are for the lowest frequencies they can generate. My advice with this effect is to find the lowest Hz your unit can just about generate and then increase the volume to max. You should get a sensation that can be felt but not that strong as the unit is struggling to produce a low frequency with much energy. You want to use low frequencies on purpose as these will have their own felt character and help ensure this effect does not just feel like RPM or SPEED.



    SPEED:

    Updated 10/04/19
    [​IMG]
    Improved my effect, (alter the speed you want the effect to start from) then determine what % from the max speed it reaches its peak. You don't want this effect to be too strong, and it can be good to complement engine RPM with a nice sensation as the car is reaching max velocity. I used low Hz that the tactile could just about generate for this update but will look at other possibilities. I prefer to keep SPEED effect separated from RPM and place it on different channels as this can be quite an active effect depending on settings used.

    ENGINE RPM 1-2:
    Updated 10/04/19
    [​IMG]



    ENGINE RPM 3-4:

    Updated 10/04/19
    [​IMG]
    I am testing multiple layers to try and add specific sensations. This effect will be one of the more time-consuming effects. Being able to add layers now means we have much greater control for specific RPM ranges.

    I strongly advise placing "Engine RPM" onto channels that are more engine/gear based. Keep these separate from other effects to enable the units on them to deliver more detail.



    ROAD IMPACTS:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    Currently trying 3 layers in an attempt to achieve good depth but also an edginess for curb feedback. This is an effect that can help to enhance stereo placement of the wheels but may need care not to be set too high as could become annoying.


    ROAD VIBRATION:
    [​IMG]

    Have this currently with 2 layers using different frequencies, this allows us to adjust the volume of one compared to the other to help alter the sensation generated.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
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  4. sdubbin

    sdubbin
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    Question with the frequency’s base and high effect is that a new feature eg to limit the exciters to specific ranges
     
  5. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte
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    I believe it is used for the (start-end) or (low-high) center frequency values.
    You may find some of the early effects above not properly configured as like most people I was messing around quite a bit to start with. Will be replacing some effects with newer or better settings as I get more time to progress with it.

    Updates Added
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
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  6. Tomas Reinicke

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    Which effect(s) goes to which of the six units?
     
  7. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte
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    You can place effects to any channel or multiple channels that you wish.

    One of the benefits of this is being able to reduce the number of effects any single unit has to generate. We can then avoid having two very constant effects on the same transducers. For example not having the primary bumps/suspension on the same units/channels as RPM effect.

    Doing this will help distinguish the sensations of these effects and avoid placing too many demands on the individual transducers. It all comes down to preference and trying combinations of grouped effects.
     
  8. Tomas Reinicke

    Tomas Reinicke
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    Yes, I understand but I was curious about how you have set it up, regarding which effects you have combined and where they are placed on the seat
     
  9. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte
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    The beta is quite new, it has brought some new features and the ability to have for example additional layers. So as yet I have not had time to try all the possibilities that I would like to try...
    I do think some of it will be down to personal preference but there is no question that separating the most active effects can improve the immersion.

    The main two advantages in having 6 units used rather than say 2 is being able to reduce the workload on the transducers. So by giving units specific roles using effects separation but also being able to spread some effects sensations over more than just 2 channels. These having their own independent volumes can improve the feeling of the effect. So, one pair of units at a high volume is not the same sensation as 4-6 units with the same effect using lower volumes.

    I will share more from actual testing and help give a report on my own preferences or what effects I think combine well over the different units.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
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  10. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte
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    Not had a great deal of time with this yet but have been learning more towards finding suitable sensations and settings for some effects. Will update some later today as progress is being made. Getting to grips more with the controls.

    Starting to achieve very nice tactile immersion from the 6 units on the back of the seat. I have to say decent low bass is possible. This would blow a newcomer to tactile away if properly configured but really enjoying the ability to have an effect displaced how we want it.

    What do I mean, well so it is placed on whatever units we want and to be able to control the volume of each individual effect to the individual channels/units it operates on. For example, "Wheelslide" and "Speed" based effects having more presence/volume in the upper shoulder regions and with "RPM" and "Acceleration G" effects giving more presence in the mid/lower spine and back regions.

    Having this helps you detect better the individual effects, its actually quite cool to play around with.

    I am curious if any of you have found nice effects sensations you want to share?
    Maybe any problems or issues you are having. Or your thoughts on the Beta V3 so far?
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019 at 10:51
  11. anton_Chez

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    Is it normal for the little pucks to constantly buzz when the amp is powering them, but no signal is being received? Also, mine run pretty hot, they haven't shut off in the time I tested them but they were pretty warm. You sort of need to run a decent gain on them to actually get the feeling out of them.

    I also tried them with the audio tactile, i wasn't a fan at all of it. They are SO loud in actual game noise. I can understand the benefits and I can feel that very unique output that the audio gives but I don't think for me it's worth the hassle with only 2 units AND using a different output to the sound card for game audio. Too much hassle.

    On topic, I tried your settings, Rod, and actually went back to the standard Shake It with my old settings. I didn't find them useful at all. Truth be told, I don't think I'm going to bother with the new effects, at least not for now.
     
  12. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte
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    Much Patience?
    Ahhh but did you follow the advice and set a Crossover of 200Hz or even 150Hz, especially when audio-tactile is being used? That would greatly reduce the noise they create. These frequencies are audible so if we want to feel them (which can add to RPM and other effects detailing) they will also be accompanied with sound. The solution is to wear headphones or have game audio via speakers louder than the transducers. Also if directly mounted to a seat they don't need to be cranked that hard.

    What we don't want is the frequencies above the 200Hz crossover limit or harmonics from effects above this frequency also being generated and heard. That brings much more sound and making the exciter like a speaker. So as shared before if not using "specialist software to do this" if its "too much bother" for the soundcard being used for "audio-tactile" then set an EQ like something below.

    [​IMG]
    Note: This thread was not about combining "audio tactile" but simply looking at using the SBS V3 Beta and playing around with it.... The V3 Beta has a 200Hz limit for a Crossover that can be selected in the advanced controls for the soundcard.

    Some of the videos or examples I shared in the "General Tactile" thread feel pretty awesome with the "audio-tactile" and if they are well configured and with suitable volume output. They have impressed me quite a lot for the price they are. Focus here though should not be on audio-tactile mixing with telemetry based tactile. It clearly has some hurdles for folk to find good solutions for that have been discussed in the main tactile discussion thread.


    Heat Issues
    Don't think my units get hot will check sometime but I've had them running at times for several hours with no issues. Although I have been using the iNuke amps and set a 20W limit and ensure they are not being sent too much wattage.

    V3 Beta - Cant Be Arsed Or Not Bothered?
    Come on, as for settings with the V3 Beta they were as described based on only an hour or so use.
    They are not meant to be final or amazing. If anything, sharing them was to help get others to test and improve or start a discussion on this excellent software's ability and options. Also for others, not to worry about sharing their own settings, or feeling they were not good enough to share to help encourage more people to start to get involved.


    Practice Makes........
    I have improvements for some effects as since then have spent more time with them and playing around with options. The new controls need some learning curve after all and experimenting. Although looking so far, it's hardly worthwhile going to the bother of sharing when to this point, the thread itself has so little input from others. I may as well just focus on my own rig and not give myself any extra bother. Will give the thread a bit more time but well the situation is what it is....


    Tactile Control - New Possibilities?
    I have just recently taken ownership of a 2018 iPad Pro and seeking to get it connected to the audio interface. It has some amazing audio tools and not only for monitoring the audio frequencies effects are generating. This would be very useful to use to help understand and see what settings within SBS is doing, to then have effects generate an output we may desire and have multiple effects be better defined to work together. That's the level I am going to (via self-research/testing) to ensure the effects that do end up being used are indeed excellent and using frequencies or software settings that get the most of the tactile hardware installed.


    Exciting - Awesome - Simple
    One app alone I discovered for the iPad and audio interface makes it possible to apply basically anything to any channel (via audio interface) This could be an EQ / Crossover / Spectrum Analyser etc etc etc. So simple to use as well, select a channel and select the app tools you want to use on it. Then configure the tools as needed. So I can see me using this in the future to control my own rather complexed tactile installation. Multiple channels from 2 soundcards would be no problem, easily 14 or more channels all controlled/configured and ability to monitor their output but with simple ease.

    As these are professional audio tools/plugins they are far, far beyond some of the software solutions discussed in the main tactile thread, like VirtualBannana, iNuke DSP or others. Here with this solution/approach, is the beauty of using the iPads touch controls and zero impact on the PC CPU/GPU as well. Not so much relevant here but is a breakthrough for my own tactile rig build and continued learning...
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019 at 16:10
  13. anton_Chez

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    My point was simply that the new effects I copy and pasted into a new profile, with slight adjustments to cater for my specific units, were significantly worse than the one I was using pre V3 beta, that's all. It was meant as more of a realisation that simply having access to new effects won't just magically make everything better. They will take a lot of time and testing to actually find out what the graphs and different values do and how they effect the output of the tactile.

    The little pucks do a decent job of rounding out the feeling of engine on the actual seat rather than on the chassis which is nice. I might need to move them a little though to get the feeling better.

    Anyway I won't go too much more into it here, might make another post on the tactile thread. My initial impression of the V3 beta is that it needs a) A LOT of messing about to find out what does what, or b) a manual explaining it all, which will still need testing and trial and error to make sense of it all. Same as the regular Shake It effects, only now we have to learn some new things.
     
  14. cfischer9009

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    Mr Latte, I have been following your progress with your experiments with great interest. I am in the very slow process of building my own rig and very much so look forward to implementing your findings with my setup. The main reason I am building a motion sim is for immersion and I agree with your emphasis on tactile. Thanks you, keep up the great work, and please keep posting about it as I and probably many other lurkers are reading with interest.
     
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  15. Mr Latte

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    The purpose of this thread was to discuss such and cover such things, based on testing and people sharing their own feedback or experiences. Just to clarify, V3 is BETA it is not final nor will it come with a manual. However, I don't know many developers of software for the community as helpful as @Wotever and if you ask he will help with things. Use the Discord channel as he always responds to people there.

    The impression you gave (me at least/hence my slight annoyance) is that you had a go with it and as some things are different or not certain how/what they do. So assumingly after a short while, you decided not to bother going back to the current version and hadn't even tried to have any discussion here about it. I think that's being a bit harsh mate is all...

    Some things could also likely be improved or changed based on feedback that the developer gets.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019 at 19:49
  16. anton_Chez

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    Nah man, no harm or ill will meant by it. Sorry if it came across poorly, it was my attempt at actually providing feedback. The problem is that I have very little time currently to actually dive into it and learn a little bit about improving it. I just wanted to get it out there that it felt very different from what I was used to with the old values I've been using (that you yourself helped me with) and more work will be needed on my end to get it to feel even comparable, let alone provide a better experience.

    I may try copy pasting the values from the old one into the V3 and see if I can get a good starting point to work from. Then hopefully I will be able to see how the changes I make affect the output.

    Sorry again if I came across a little harsh.
     
  17. anton_Chez

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    OK so I've just gone back and retried the engine effects listed above Rod, and now they seem to be WAY better than before. Perhaps I had a rogue effect (Acc G or Speed maybe?) giving me some sort of bad feedback. I've only enabled the 4 engine effects and there is a nice seperation of low and high RPM's that really add a sense of speed especially running motion in VR. I really like it. I'll have to go back and find that effect and either leave it out, or tune it accordingly. Not sure what happened in the first test, but I've been driving for 30 minutes with it with the new pucks on the seat, too, and it feels really good. Might just turn the overall gain slider down slightly but yeah.
     
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  18. Mr Latte

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    V3 BETA ISSUE

    Discovered a problem that was affecting the effects I was feeling with the V3 Beta.
    The non beta version of SBS even if it has no effects enabled, its master volume output slider will also affect the master volume output for the V3 Beta. They will conflict if both are active.

    Scenario:
    My V3 beta was running "Speed Effect" only I had the volume set to 100%
    I could see in testing the monitoring, all the effects frequencies, their gain would rise/fall @3dB and this made the effect feel it was looping/repetitively from lower-higher volume.

    I went back to the previous version and sure enough its master volume as set to only 50%. This was causing an issue with the 100% setting in the V3 Beta I had. So I recommend people don't just do what I had done and turn off the effects of the previous build/versions effects. Instead, go and disable/de-select the sound card for it via the advanced options.

    This way it wont be causing an issue/conflict with both the V3 and previous non beta version both being live at the same time.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2019 at 13:13
  19. Mr Latte

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    Tactile Tuning Test
    With many tactile and including these small exciters a crucial element with them is finding suitable volumes for specific frequencies (Hz). If you have different effect layers for controlling effects with specific ranges of frequencies used in each layer. Then you need to test each layer to find what a suitable volume is for each layers frequencies.

    Often it is easy to make a hash of things and overburden your tactile. Not only can this be done with too many effects operating at once but as I invite you to try for yourself here. Problems can arise from bad settings and a single effect.

    It can be easy to cause a knocking/thumbing sensation from effects and with this bring operational noises to the tactile units. This can be if they are being overdriven with too much amplitude/gain for specific frequency ranges or the master output gain level and amplifier levels are too high.

    Seems lots of people are cranking effects levels willy nilly on the fly with the concept that higher is always better or hoping to find by chance a magical setting. Using high volumes should be taken with more care if you want to have a better-tuned output and response.

    Distracting Annoyances
    For me personally, I don't like hearing the tactile operating. So if doing tests with no game sounds, or if they are too low, for me it breaks the immersion and enjoyment. I strongly believe that immersion is better when combined with other senses and they work together.


    IMPORTANT
    Custom Channel Mapping & Multiple Tactile Units For Individual Volumes
    If like in the current test configuration I am using you have multiple tactile on different channels then please remember to assign "Per Effect" volumes to your individual channels. For example, you may have different brands/models of tactile that differ with the output they generate or want an effect going out over 2 pairs of units but these have their own volume ratios.


    2019 TACTILE RPM TEST
    Using Shakeit Engine Layer Comparisons With Different Frequencies



    Objective:

    To help people learn and discover how with your own tactile and hardware what settings define achieving a good balance between gain/volume and frequencies being used.

    This will vary with the hardware you have and tactile being used and possibly your installation. Yet the question lots of you cant I believe answer.... Is knowing/understanding how your own tactile and hardware can perform or how it even performs with specific frequency bands. What are good settings to use for your hardware and installation? This is crucial to know if tuning your own hardware.


    PEAK / HIGHEST / LOWEST
    Frequencies you need to learn what frequency output your own tactile transducers can handle and output well. What they feel good with and what they don't seem to do much with.

    We are going to use RPM to highlight this. A simple and easy to follow approach.

    Join Me? / Factors to begin this test are:
    Assetto Corsa / Porsche 911 RSR / Engine Only Effect Operating

    Let's begin to go over some things....

    Shake It Bass Shaker V3 Beta

    MASTER VOLUME
    [​IMG]
    I have set to 60%
    Different Sims may have a stronger/weaker output so a user can then increase the MASTER VOLUME beyond 60% to compensate for titles with lower output gain. Also If we keep the sound card volume (This is what the MASTER volume is) below its 100% we then also prevent any increased distortion being added from the soundcard used.



    EFFECT VOLUME
    [​IMG]
    I purposely have selected the effect to use 25Hz and 40Hz as this will give a good operating range for this RPM test on most units.

    Additionally for many budget tactile @40Hz is a peak strength frequency their units will achieve. So it is ideal to use to get the balance between your own Soundcard / Amplifier / Effect volume settings.



    PEAK Frequency Test:
    • Effect Volume 100%
    • OUTPUT (selected)
    • Low-Frequency 25Hz & High-Frequency 40Hz (selected)
    • Modulation (off)

    RPM Response Curve
    [​IMG]
    Create a curve like this to use for the test


    Your Amplifier Volume
    What you want to do is test the above with the settings being shared.

    Ensure the MASTER volume is at 60% and EFFECT volume at 100%
    Try the RPM of the car in (N) and gradually adjust your amplifier volume. When you reach a peak you want and think is high enough for the sensation of this effect then decide to keep this volume level on your amp to work in connection with the above settings.

    If you have this done then you should have achieved a balance for the peak Hz your tactile may generate. If a different sim has lower strengths, then I recommend to increase the MASTER volume and NOT your amplifier volume. This way you are NOT constantly changing your amplifiers levels and as many amps do not give actual readings to what output the amp is set to this is a better way to configure things.





    [​IMG]
    Now lets look deeper
    :)
    Output Monitoring:
    FAB Filter Pro Q2 Via iPad Pro & AUM Software From Focusrite 18i8 Audio Interface:

    Here we see exactly what frequencies and harmonics are produced with the frequencies (used in above settings). Notice that while it has a peak at 40Hz much more frequencies are involved. With these settings, my tactile exciters with (RPM at MAX) are just about on the comfort level limits with the 100% effect gain being applied and only a 60% MASTER volume setting. I can feel them starting to strain and be a tad overbearing even at this level with 40Hz. With Assetto Corsa and my own amp volumes, I could even enjoy 50% Shakeit master/soundcard volume.

    Keep in perspective that different tactile units will have their own output character to how strong certain frequencies they generate may feel. So two units with the same software settings and even same amplification may feel different.

    Using a (12dB) chart option in this example I only begin to feel tactile at about -5dB so anything shown below this value (even the spike at 2K from soundcard) is not felt.


    @6000 RPM
    [​IMG]
    Here is the spectrum analysis of the above = @ 6K RPM. With these settings and my amp volume, I am just starting to feel the RPM in the tactile. I don't feel the lower RPM with these settings and these units I am using to test with. You may get something different as different tactile will have a response with lower frequencies depending on the units own performance abilities and character output.


    Max RPM
    [​IMG]
    Here is the spectrum analysis of the above = @ MAX RPM

    So take a moment to pay attention, see how @20Hz - 90Hz are at 0dB from this test with these settings (via my own configuration). It highlights, we have to take into account that much more than just the Hz used for effects (center values) are generated. This will, of course, vary with different effects and settings.


    MAX RPM With Shakeit MASTER Volume 100%
    [​IMG]
    Here is spectrum analysis when I crank the Shakeit (MASTER) gain level also to 100%

    This really is an overbearing feeling from the tactile being driven too hard. It is not a nice sensation. As not only is the signal so strong it is clipping but now notice how from as low as 1Hz upwards is at about +1.5dB. We also see that 20Hz is over +3dB and 40Hz PEAK is 5dB and this continuing all the way up to 100Hz now above 0dB.

    In this example, when we increase the gain, we will feel tactile at a lower RPM beginning to kick in. Not because we are changing the parameters of the response curve. Just that when the gain levels are increased the dB level hits the point we start feeling the sensation sooner.

    Does It Make Things Any Clearer?
    So hopefully sharing this highlights how excessive gain levels can be a HUGE factor to your tactile working well and them being abused/overdriven with poor settings, even with just a single effect operating.

    Ask if you are not sure about something or have a query...
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2019 at 23:22
  20. Mr Latte

    Mr Latte
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    Reserved:

    Keeping the same RPM response curve and other settings.
    Now we will only alter the frequencies used.


    Highest Frequency Test

    Lowest Frequency Test
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2019 at 15:14
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