Maybe I can help someone with this.
rFactor Setups (Merged)
- Thread starter Jens Piskorsch
- Start date
So, basically, I am down to the advanced stuff in setups to understand. My cars drive well enough for a mediocre dude, but then sometimes I get setups from some other folks that make mine look like child's play, i.e. faster.
So I will ask a few questions in this thread from time to time - anyone feel free to help, if anyone wants to
I will be asking 99% F1 mod questions. Maybe this thread will help a few others with some of their setup issues as well - that is my hope...
The following question is on the 1994 F1 mod.
My biggest issue is tyre temperature. I can manage to get my setups so that my rear tyres are close to 104 deg Celsius on Compound A, but the fronts are then at like 94-100, at most, while the handling is good.
Now as far as I understand the setup guides, softer suspension at either end of your car, will increase cornering grip, i.e. less understeer out of corners if front suspension is softened, opposite if rear is softened.
So then I set my front suspension softer, for more oversteer in corners, but this seems to be causing tyre temperature issues - being too low that is, and scraping the suspension.
Now, to avoid the ride height in Motec showing minus values, I understand I have to increase packers.
But then I need to set the packers so high it's not even believable, and this makes me think that it kind of negates having a soft suspension in the first place, as my suspension travel is very limited then.
So my question is probably related to balancing out all these factors, so that each one is at optimum levels, as opposed to my current system of compromising one part to negate the bad settings on the other parts, which makes me go
!!!
Now, I really do not want to rely on other people's setups in order to go fast any more - as much as I appreciate it, this is a sim, and in real life, colleagues don't always share setups...
So, ANY advice would be appreciated! I know this awesome forum will help me once again, like always
Thanks guys.
So I will ask a few questions in this thread from time to time - anyone feel free to help, if anyone wants to
I will be asking 99% F1 mod questions. Maybe this thread will help a few others with some of their setup issues as well - that is my hope...
The following question is on the 1994 F1 mod.
My biggest issue is tyre temperature. I can manage to get my setups so that my rear tyres are close to 104 deg Celsius on Compound A, but the fronts are then at like 94-100, at most, while the handling is good.
Now as far as I understand the setup guides, softer suspension at either end of your car, will increase cornering grip, i.e. less understeer out of corners if front suspension is softened, opposite if rear is softened.
So then I set my front suspension softer, for more oversteer in corners, but this seems to be causing tyre temperature issues - being too low that is, and scraping the suspension.
Now, to avoid the ride height in Motec showing minus values, I understand I have to increase packers.
But then I need to set the packers so high it's not even believable, and this makes me think that it kind of negates having a soft suspension in the first place, as my suspension travel is very limited then.
So my question is probably related to balancing out all these factors, so that each one is at optimum levels, as opposed to my current system of compromising one part to negate the bad settings on the other parts, which makes me go
!!!
Now, I really do not want to rely on other people's setups in order to go fast any more - as much as I appreciate it, this is a sim, and in real life, colleagues don't always share setups...
So, ANY advice would be appreciated! I know this awesome forum will help me once again, like always
Thanks guys.
OK so I've figured out some stuff on my own.
If you want to heat up your front tyres more , you can
- Move weight distribution forward.
- Set brake balance forward
- Set slow bumps higher at the front to speed up weight transfer to the front during cornering, also stabilising the rear as a result.
If anyone else has questions about setups, please feel free to post them here I am learning a lot about setups currently, but any other help is appreciated!
If you want to heat up your front tyres more , you can
- Move weight distribution forward.
- Set brake balance forward
- Set slow bumps higher at the front to speed up weight transfer to the front during cornering, also stabilising the rear as a result.
If anyone else has questions about setups, please feel free to post them here
I am learning a lot about setups currently, but any other help is appreciated!
As i read it you seem to understand what most things do on a car but i am not sure if you are using them correctly.
What i read here is that your trying to change a lot of the cars handling with mechanical grip by softening the car. Usually that is a good thing, but as F1 cars balance are mainly based on downforce i should do most of the work there.
Besides, the best thing you could do on F1 cars is run them as stiff as you can unless you are on a track like Monaco where you need a lot of mechanical grip in the slower corners. The stiffer the car is, the less it will bottom out, the lower ride height you can use and the less tire heat it will do.
When you are unhappy with a cars balance always ask yourself these questions:
On what type of corner am i having these problems?
In general: is it a slow,medium or fast corner?
In the fast corners your main problem could be solved with the aerodynamics/ride.
In the medium corners, its a mix of mechanical (suspension) and aerodynaics.
In the slow, its most probably your mechanical grip.
Another important question you should be asking yourself is this:
Where in the corner am i having this problem?
Is it on turn in or on the exit?
If its on turn in, the problem is most likely with the front of the car as that is the part that is doing all the work.
On the exit its the other way around and you should probably work on the rear.
Personally, i prefer the car to be very stiff and not damped so much. As a soft car/damped car takes a way a bit of feedback of what the car is actually doing.
I hope this helps
What i read here is that your trying to change a lot of the cars handling with mechanical grip by softening the car. Usually that is a good thing, but as F1 cars balance are mainly based on downforce i should do most of the work there.
Besides, the best thing you could do on F1 cars is run them as stiff as you can unless you are on a track like Monaco where you need a lot of mechanical grip in the slower corners. The stiffer the car is, the less it will bottom out, the lower ride height you can use and the less tire heat it will do.
When you are unhappy with a cars balance always ask yourself these questions:
On what type of corner am i having these problems?
In general: is it a slow,medium or fast corner?
In the fast corners your main problem could be solved with the aerodynamics/ride.
In the medium corners, its a mix of mechanical (suspension) and aerodynaics.
In the slow, its most probably your mechanical grip.
Another important question you should be asking yourself is this:
Where in the corner am i having this problem?
Is it on turn in or on the exit?
If its on turn in, the problem is most likely with the front of the car as that is the part that is doing all the work.
On the exit its the other way around and you should probably work on the rear.
Personally, i prefer the car to be very stiff and not damped so much. As a soft car/damped car takes a way a bit of feedback of what the car is actually doing.
I hope this helps
David O'Reilly
A bad quali means I can go forwards in the race.
Can I ask how to check tyre temps other than the HUD graphic is there a place to see temps across the tyre?
Thanks
Thanks
I do to. Motec is great, it shows basically everything rfactor records. I base my strategies on the data i collect with motec.
As i read it you seem to understand what most things do on a car but i am not sure if you are using them correctly.
What i read here is that your trying to change a lot of the cars handling with mechanical grip by softening the car. Usually that is a good thing, but as F1 cars balance are mainly based on downforce i should do most of the work there.
Besides, the best thing you could do on F1 cars is run them as stiff as you can unless you are on a track like Monaco where you need a lot of mechanical grip in the slower corners. The stiffer the car is, the less it will bottom out, the lower ride height you can use and the less tire heat it will do.
When you are unhappy with a cars balance always ask yourself these questions:
On what type of corner am i having these problems?
In general: is it a slow,medium or fast corner?
In the fast corners your main problem could be solved with the aerodynamics/ride.
In the medium corners, its a mix of mechanical (suspension) and aerodynaics.
In the slow, its most probably your mechanical grip.
Another important question you should be asking yourself is this:
Where in the corner am i having this problem?
Is it on turn in or on the exit?
If its on turn in, the problem is most likely with the front of the car as that is the part that is doing all the work.
On the exit its the other way around and you should probably work on the rear.
Personally, i prefer the car to be very stiff and not damped so much. As a soft car/damped car takes a way a bit of feedback of what the car is actually doing.
I hope this helps
Yes your initial thoughts sum this up correctly. I understand it, but my application is screwed. The one thing that pushes me more toward softer suspension is that a stiffer car feels too 'jumpy' - when exiting corners, for example, the back end steps out so fast that I cannot ever correct it, except when using softer springs etc.
I also tend to make my slow rebound and bumps at the rear considerably softer than at the front, as this assists corner exiting stability.
Also, with the GP2 mod for example, it feels to me that the car loses grip faster in downshifts with stiffer suspension than with softer suspension.
Also, as far as tyre temps go, is softer supposed to mean warmer tyres, all other things being equal? This is how I understand it, because of the supposedly increased contact time with the tarmac. And I never get even the softest tyres up to recommended temperatures, or very rarely, thus I lean towards softer suspension as well.
And then I get confused as to what my packers must be, I know it must be more, but how much is too much?
I feel like I'm in a maze with this sometimes, but I really WANT to become a setup expert...
So to sum up what I understand:
1. Suspension
- Stiffer: more responsive, less cornering grip, less tyre temperature
- Softer: less responsive, more cornering grip, more tyre temperature
- Higher: less downforce, less grip
- Lower: more downforce, more grip
- Less Packers: more suspension travel, less stability
- More Packers: less suspension travel, more stability
2. Aerodynamics
- More wing: more grip, more stability, faster cornering, less speed
- Less wing: less grip. less stability, slower cornering, more speed
3. Wheel Angles
- More Forward Caster: more responsive, what other effects?
- Less Forward Caster: less responsive, what other effects?
- More Inward Camber: worse acceleration(rear), more tyre heat, more cornering grip - the last 2 only works up to a point.
- Less Inward Camber: better acceleration(rear), less tyre heat, less cornering grip
- More Front Toe-In: more responsive, less grip, less stability
- Less Front Toe-In: less responsive, more grip, more stability - the last 2 only up to 0.0.
tbc...
Am I understanding the above correct so far? Any advice is always appreciated
1. Suspension
- Stiffer: more responsive, less cornering grip, less tyre temperature
- Softer: less responsive, more cornering grip, more tyre temperature
- Higher: less downforce, less grip
- Lower: more downforce, more grip
- Less Packers: more suspension travel, less stability
- More Packers: less suspension travel, more stability
2. Aerodynamics
- More wing: more grip, more stability, faster cornering, less speed
- Less wing: less grip. less stability, slower cornering, more speed
3. Wheel Angles
- More Forward Caster: more responsive, what other effects?
- Less Forward Caster: less responsive, what other effects?
- More Inward Camber: worse acceleration(rear), more tyre heat, more cornering grip - the last 2 only works up to a point.
- Less Inward Camber: better acceleration(rear), less tyre heat, less cornering grip
- More Front Toe-In: more responsive, less grip, less stability
- Less Front Toe-In: less responsive, more grip, more stability - the last 2 only up to 0.0.
tbc...
Am I understanding the above correct so far? Any advice is always appreciated
1. Suspension
- Less Packers: more suspension travel, less stability
- More Packers: less suspension travel, more stability
You are somehow correct about packers. But less suspension travel means less grip as well. The ideal thing is to get a lot of suspension travel, but in a very quick way. That way you have the maximum amount of grip available and the car is very direct.
I should only touch packers when you can't resolve the car from bottoming out or really have big issues with the stability. It really is a final tool to help you
3. Wheel Angles
- More Forward Caster: more responsive, better braking, more front camber/grip.more stability under braking.
- Less Forward Caster: less responsive, worse braking, less front camber/grip. less stability under braking.
The caster is a vertical spring that can be tilted a little bit towards the rear of the car when increasing it with a positive number. This helps a lot with stability issues under braking, but it also creates a little bit of static camber once your turning the wheel. I inserted a picture of a motorbike so you can get the picture of whats happening the wheel while turned.
- More Inward Camber: worse acceleration(rear), more tyre heat, more cornering grip -
- Less Inward Camber: better acceleration(rear), less tyre heat, less cornering grip
I leaned toward using Caster instead of Camber for a time, but the my driving style changed and i rarely use caster nowadays. Its one of the few things that just gives a little bit of help if your having a little understeer.
- More Front Toe-In: more responsive, more grip , less stability Better turn in
- Less Front Toe-In: less responsive, less grip, more stability -
- More Rear Toe-Out: less responsive , more grip , more stability Better traction out of corners
- Less Rear Toe-Out : more responsive, less grip, less stability - Worse traction out of corners
Now about a softer rear - i imagine why you do this, and this seems to match your driving style.
I like my rear stiffer because i use my rear tires a lot more than i use my front.
So basically that also tells you that i like my setups to be a little oversteery.
Also, as far as tyre temps go, is softer supposed to mean warmer tyres, all other things being equal? This is how I understand it, because of the supposedly increased contact time with the tarmac. And I never get even the softest tyres up to recommended temperatures, or very rarely, thus I lean towards softer suspension as well.
Yes you are correct, but on the other hand, if you under-drive your tire your not getting the full potential out them them either.
- Less Packers: more suspension travel, less stability
- More Packers: less suspension travel, more stability
You are somehow correct about packers. But less suspension travel means less grip as well. The ideal thing is to get a lot of suspension travel, but in a very quick way. That way you have the maximum amount of grip available and the car is very direct.
I should only touch packers when you can't resolve the car from bottoming out or really have big issues with the stability. It really is a final tool to help you
3. Wheel Angles
- More Forward Caster: more responsive, better braking, more front camber/grip.more stability under braking.
- Less Forward Caster: less responsive, worse braking, less front camber/grip. less stability under braking.
The caster is a vertical spring that can be tilted a little bit towards the rear of the car when increasing it with a positive number. This helps a lot with stability issues under braking, but it also creates a little bit of static camber once your turning the wheel. I inserted a picture of a motorbike so you can get the picture of whats happening the wheel while turned.
- More Inward Camber: worse acceleration(rear), more tyre heat, more cornering grip -
- Less Inward Camber: better acceleration(rear), less tyre heat, less cornering grip
I leaned toward using Caster instead of Camber for a time, but the my driving style changed and i rarely use caster nowadays. Its one of the few things that just gives a little bit of help if your having a little understeer.
- More Front Toe-In: more responsive, more grip , less stability Better turn in
- Less Front Toe-In: less responsive, less grip, more stability -
- More Rear Toe-Out: less responsive , more grip , more stability Better traction out of corners
- Less Rear Toe-Out : more responsive, less grip, less stability - Worse traction out of corners
Now about a softer rear - i imagine why you do this, and this seems to match your driving style.
I like my rear stiffer because i use my rear tires a lot more than i use my front.
So basically that also tells you that i like my setups to be a little oversteery.
Also, as far as tyre temps go, is softer supposed to mean warmer tyres, all other things being equal? This is how I understand it, because of the supposedly increased contact time with the tarmac. And I never get even the softest tyres up to recommended temperatures, or very rarely, thus I lean towards softer suspension as well.
Yes you are correct, but on the other hand, if you under-drive your tire your not getting the full potential out them them either.
How do you guys tackle the gear ratio's? Its confusing me
How do you guys tackle the gear ratio's? Its confusing me
Final Gear must just hit the limiter on the end of the longest straight, and 2nd/1st(depending on the corner) must give you optimal acceleration out of the slowest corner without being to low. The other gears I combine with engine braking so that I can brake and turn optimally through all corners, i.e. it might feel like 3rd gear corners are to understeery, but if my engine braking is already down to 4, then I lower the gear ratio for that gear 1 or 2 notches.
But I am sure someone else might have a better way of doing it
that's just the way I like to do it.Also, NEVER be afraid to use 1st gear throughout the lap. That's a gear that I use wherever possible. I have seen some guys that are a lot faster than me who are afraid of using 1st.
I am only about 3 months into my own setting up and driving without assists, so I am still learning a lot, but I love the challenge of setting up a car and testing gear rations and feel of the car for myself now. It's an addiction.
EDIT: I'm sure @Boy van de Laar will have even more excellent tips for you on gear ratios
I use 1st alot in wtm, But not (rarely) in gp2 2011. Thanks for the tips i'm writing them all down in my notebook so that i can refer to them whilst testing. I'm sure i will gain some time.Final Gear must just hit the limiter on the end of the longest straight, and 2nd/1st(depending on the corner) must give you optimal acceleration out of the slowest corner without being to low. The other gears I combine with engine braking so that I can brake and turn optimally through all corners, i.e. it might feel like 3rd gear corners are to understeery, but if my engine braking is already down to 4, then I lower the gear ratio for that gear 1 or 2 notches.
But I am sure someone else might have a better way of doing it
Also, NEVER be afraid to use 1st gear throughout the lap. That's a gear that I use wherever possible. I have seen some guys that are a lot faster than me who are afraid of using 1st.
I am only about 3 months into my own setting up and driving without assists, so I am still learning a lot, but I love the challenge of setting up a car and testing gear rations and feel of the car for myself now. It's an addiction.
EDIT: I'm sure @Boy van de Laar will have even more excellent tips for you on gear ratios
I use 1st alot in wtm, But not (rarely) in gp2 2011. Thanks for the tips i'm writing them all down in my notebook so that i can refer to them whilst testing. I'm sure i will gain some time.
As I said, we can have a casual session sometime soon. No racing, just practice. Because races are not the place to learn about setups
I do like doing a few races to get consistent on tracks that I'm bad at though...And with GP2 you can also use 1st a lot! Which track would you like to practice on? Guessing we'll go with GP2 2011. I do not have the tin top mods you mentioned...
Well i'm ok at bathurst but i need to be "ok" everywhere so i'm good for you to choose mate. I'm free most nights apart from sundays at 8 i have to be at my league race.As I said, we can have a casual session sometime soon. No racing, just practice. Because races are not the place to learn about setups
And with GP2 you can also use 1st a lot! Which track would you like to practice on? Guessing we'll go with GP2 2011. I do not have the tin top mods you mentioned...
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbarnett/SetupMatrix.html#Engine Brake Mapping
This has all the info i will need i think
This has all the info i will need i think
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