Porsche 911 Singer

Cars Porsche 911 Singer 0.964

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I probably should make some tools to generate curves for AC's format. I'm curious, are you using an app to look @ the tire grip or just calculated it?

PS: Z06 doesn't have load curves in the folder, but the other cars do. :p I guess that's Jason's matter.
I think that got fixed, but maybe not @aphidgod

And I just calculated it. In practice, it’ll be more than that since your front tires freeze themselves, but it’s still definitely the reason for (or anyway a major contributor to) the handling discrepancies.
 

aphidgod

1000RPM
Yeah, that was a cut/paste that was supposed to be a copy/paste... fixed on this end. Copy the LUTs over from the GS in the meantime, they're the same tires. :thumbsup:
 

Robin_NL

100RPM
I googled 964 Turbo Assetto Corsa and on images I found this car: 1993 964 Turbo S Leichtbau

My own ingame picture:


Going to try it out tonight if it behaves like the car in the YT video on the previous page.

Cheers
Robin
 

jonelsorel

250RPM
You're looking at the wrong thing. The right side is the averaged out value. It's only really good for going in a straight line and getting an alright average over a longer period of time.

If you pause, at any given time in the above vid, there's more load in the rear. It's possible that momentarily it could shift around into a strange arrangement when in transient, because of how ARBs, dampers etc. work to shift the load around. However, everywhere I paused, it was still as you'd expect.

The tire load shift is almost assuredly just from the camber of the road changing. Pay attention to it as the tires start to slip noticeably around 11sec.

Nothing weird here, really. Still in complete broscience territory that doesn't really provide anything meaningful, apart from "I don't like how the car handles here and I think it's wrong".

Actually, the hunch i had in the Black County clips about the aero seems to have a basis. Load does increase more at the front than at the rear with speed. This is not a question of momentary jumps in load from one milisecond to the next, since the values on the right are averaged, not instant. Anyone can test this.

These shots were taken while coasting at the respective speed. No road camber or inclination in question. Straight and level.

150 km/h, with aero
150 - aero.jpg


300 km/h, with aero
300 - aero.jpg


Betwen 150 and 300 km/h front average load increases by 49.04 kg, while rear average load increases by 31.89 kg. So at 300 km/h vs 150 km/h the front gets pressed with 17 kg more worth of downforce compared to the rear, if I'm right.

Don't know what the real world aero data should be, but the test shows that the car's front has a tendency to grip more with speed than does its rear, i.e. the rear is more sensitive to mechanical grip - which can explain at least in part the Black Cat County behavior (and probably other tracks). The other part might be due to the rear tires' very small difference in grip compared to the front, despite the 4cm width difference (as was mentioned earlier). Haven't checked myself. But at least we're getting some clues.
 
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Kyuubeey

500RPM
Don't coast, hold close to 0 longitudinal G at least.

I don't think the aero is very weird. The wings themselves are super front biased, with rear making lift and front making downforce, but drag also transfers load at speed, so it evens out. Working as intended, really.

I did calculate my tires a bit and the 0.964 public branch values are too close together. The videos earlier aren't running on that build.

I think I have them at an alright spot right now though, in my own private build. A tad higher rear/front grip distribution compared to the videos I posted earlier. I'm inclined to maybe switch to custom curves just for this car because Ben is involved as well, but I don't feel like converting over 50~ pairs of tires for my own stuff. Well either way, it can be made to work fine just with notepad tweaks. Just don't put big aero on it. :rolleyes:

I'll try and see if I can get the heating a bit better too, but no promises with AC's vanilla system.
 

Terry Rock

2000RPM
Real Porsche rear-engined cars are a lot of fun to drive fast.
I'll never forget my first time driving the 930T at speed.
People complain about how scary the car is but I absolutely loved the over-steer, slide and the power correction.
It probably has a lot to do with the fact that I started out with my first two cars being extremely fast modified Volkswagen.
I've only driven three corners with the Singer in game but it feels too softly sprung and not very pointed.
Admittedly, the two cars are completely different in underpinnings but they're from the same stable.
I can't imagine a company would take the original and make it handle worst, while charging three times as much.
The 930T is extremely pointed and you command it with throttle and very minor steering inputs to put it where you need it.
I'll probably need to play with setup to get the virtual car where I need it to be.
 

Robin_NL

100RPM
It probably has a lot to do with the fact that I started out with my first two cars being extremely fast modified Volkswagen.
Nice, what type op VW? Beetle/Karmann Ghia?


I can't imagine a company would take the original and make it handle worst, while charging three times as much.
Well tbh I now can:)
My guess is Singer are a group of super enthusiastic guys with eye for detail and stuff, but without a chassis/racecar engineering background. And with no fast 'testdriver' to point out what's wrong or right(or do they?)
But that's guessing because of Statements /info I read here.

RUF had testdriver Stefan Roser to do testing stuff on Nordschleife. Just saying.

You need to have engineers who can drive pretty fast and feel what's right or wrong or fast drivers who understand engineering just a bit.

Singer afaik does not have those guys around atm I guess?

Cheers
Robin
 
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Terry Rock

2000RPM
Below there's some interestig clips, speaking of loss of grip. First (thanks, CobraCat) illustrates that fuzzy moment when tires are overcome by load, stuff that most of us miss, driving from a still seat. One should always (smoothly) transfer just enough weight to do the cornering, not more. I can't remember which 40's or 50's F1 driver could tell with amazing precision how much weight he had on the wheels at any time, but what's certain is that the best drivers can be fastest and wear their tires least at the same time (Jim Clark, Hamilton, etc). Second clip should explain the first. The bench simulates how Nordschleife acts on a E39 M5 driven fast. Those racing in slow motion clips also help visualize the amazing forces acting on these pieces of rubber filled with air.

It's all about the tires and understanding them.


`Good recovery but the issue started two corners back from the slide as he positioned the car after the third right turn.
First corner was spot on. Second was a tad early but again okay.
Third right-hander needed to give up a bit of apex to keep the car a bit more straight for the fourth.
The slide came about because he was then chasing the back to compensate for the weight-shift to the right...compounded by the reduction in throttle angle.
Sometimes you need to not focus solely on apex.
@Robin ....Beetles.
 
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Robin_NL

100RPM
`Good recovery but the issue started two corners back from the slide as he positioned the car after the third right turn.
First corner was spot on. Second was a tad early but again okay.
Third right-hander needed to give up a bit of apex to keep the car a bit more straight for the fourth.
The slide came about because he was then chasing the back to compensate for the weight-shift to the right...compounded by the reduction in throttle angle.
Sometimes you need to not focus solely on apex.
That's Niels at my hometown track Assen Moto GP.
I several times got my ex 1M into a slide @ Ramshoek where he had his moment there. Dry and PS2 tyres(I admit a bit worn at the back lol)

Niels is a super sim enthusiast and very fast online etc, but irl he really needs to get more selfconfidence and confidence in the 130i by practising practising and practising.....

Edit, the isue starts @23s and nowhere else:)

Cheers
Robin
 

CobraCat

500RPM
Nice, what type op VW? Beetle/Karmann Ghia?




Well tbh I now can:)
My guess is Singer are a group of super enthusiastic guys with eye for detail and stuff, but without a chassis/racecar engineering background. And with no fast 'testdriver' to point out what's wrong or right(or do they?)
But that's guessing because of Statements /info I read here.

RUF had testdriver Stefan Roser to do testing stuff on Nordschleife. Just saying.

You need to have engineers who can drive pretty fast and feel what's right or wrong or fast drivers who understand engineering just a bit.

Singer afaik does not have those guys around atm I guess?

Cheers
Robin
Race driver Marino Franchitti (winner of the 12 hrs of Sebring) is the test driver for Singer :thumbsup:
 

jonelsorel

250RPM
My guess is Singer are a group of super enthusiastic guys with eye for detail and stuff, but without a chassis/racecar engineering background. And with no fast 'testdriver' to point out what's wrong or right(or do they?)
But that's guessing because of Statements /info I read here.

RUF had testdriver Stefan Roser to do testing stuff on Nordschleife. Just saying.

You need to have engineers who can drive pretty fast and feel what's right or wrong or fast drivers who understand engineering just a bit.

Singer afaik does not have those guys around atm I guess?

Cheers
Robin
Do they? :)

Just thinking that a firm with 35 employees can afford to ask for and get paid 600k a pop on average without having any engineering background is mindboggling. 1 year waiting list aside.

"The suspension, lower and generally stiffer than a 964's, features adjustable Öhlins or KW dampers and a host of modifcations. It was dialed in by a gentleman who has asked to remain anonymous, because his 9-to-5 is working as a chassis engineer for a major carmaker. (Many Singer employees have big-league backgrounds; for example, the firm's tech director, Chris Walrod, spent 17 years at race-car manufacturer Swift Engineering.)"

 

Robin_NL

100RPM
Race driver Marino Franchitti (winner of the 12 hrs of Sebring) is the test driver for Singer :thumbsup:
Then I stand corrected and is probably the real Singer just very good for what a 964 chassis can do and needs this mod a little work:)

Cheers
Robin
 

CobraCat

500RPM
Then I stand corrected and is probably the real Singer just very good for what a 964 chassis can do and needs this mod a little work:)

Cheers
Robin
Not even remotely fair to compare this mod to the real thing because we lack specific data on how Singer sets up their chassis as well as other bit and bobs and of course limitations of AC.

I trust it will be as good as it can be.That’s all we can hope for.
 

Robin_NL

100RPM
Not even remotely fair to compare this mod to the real thing because we lack specific data on how Singer sets up their chassis as well as other bit and bobs and of course limitations of AC.

I trust it will be as good as it can be.That’s all we can hope for.


I'm hoping for it, in the meantime I drive it with @Avo77 version 7 tyre data.acd and I feel fine.

And I'm also glad Arch is eventually indirectly sort of admitting this car's setup/chassis still needs some work after all.

Cheers
Robin
 

Terry Rock

2000RPM
While I applaud modders for their effort, they can sometimes go a bit overboard over-exaggerating issues.
Older...and most road-going cars is a classic example of this in simulation.
They handle like boats and wallow all over the place with the excuse being, 'tires and suspensions were worst for that era'.
They even do it with stopping.
The DRM mod is a classic example of that with brakes.
There, you have cars with little to no brakes unless you do at least two laps.
A great mod otherwise but that aspect....unrealistic.
This simulated car is good in most areas but over-steering at very, very low speed and even trying to swap ends while low-speed braking is not something I've ever experienced in Porsche cars.
I can't imagine Singer cars would have that dramatic a change.
 

Robin_NL

100RPM
This simulated car is good in most areas but over-steering at very, very low speed and even trying to swap ends while low-speed braking is not something I've ever experienced in Porsche cars.
I can't imagine Singer cars would have that dramatic a change.
This is exactly what I was trying to point out for days here...

Just having trust in the capabilities of an enthusiastic and rather experienced modder is one thing, but comparing this mod one on one with the real thing with still a lot of data missing and some real life videos is mindboggling.

But I think now we're getting somewhere! Eventually....

Cheers
Robin
 

Kyuubeey

500RPM
For one, no one knows what set(s) of springs Singer runs. It doesn't seem to be much more sprung than maybe 2.5hz. Right now it's 2.0 and 2.1hz, so stiffer than anything Ruf ever put out in terms of BTR or CTR and stiffer than all but the most hardcore of Porsches IIRC.

Terry, you would probably like a front-biased spring setup. I'm starting to consider it myself as well for the default setup; maybe some flat ride isn't very good in these cars. Hell, stock C2 comes out 1.7hz and 1.3hz (!), very front biased. Rear biased springs in 911s (and cars in general IMO) feel somewhat disconnected in simulators, and you'd maybe want to run an understeery spring bias anyway because the rear is a trailing arm. I think the reason they provide so much flat ride in the aftermarket sets is because everyone puts a 30mm rollbar in the front or something, and you need to balance it out somehow. That's not what we're doing here, the ARBs are basically M030 spec in the default setup.

If someone thinks they can get me some info on what Singer actually runs, be my quest. Would sure eliminate a lot of guesswork.

The stock cars are quite handled though. In fact I would like them to oversteer a bit more under power sometimes; but that probably has more to do with the fact that SV90's are basically 90's semis, not 90's road tires IMO.
 
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