Porsche 911 Singer

Cars Porsche 911 Singer 0.964

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Kyuubeey

500RPM

A lap with the new SMs. I'm okay with the direction they are going, it makes sense no matter what angle you look at it from. My only real issue with the car also got fixed by this. There's still some wiggle room to play with grip if need be.

It's just too bad there's not any real footage of the Singer being driven hard on these tires. Only the slicks. Well, not like the base 964 has hundreds of hours of video like some cars, but BM has a bunch of footage of them pushing various versions. Of course, that'd be almost worthless without the wealth of actual hard data that exists on the car.
 

Robin_NL

100RPM
Stock semislick setup, Tyre version 7 by @Avo77 still pretty oversteery at very high speed. But controllable with a flick of the wrist. IRL very dangerous....


From the outside not so spectacular.


Staying (partly)on throttle is also in real life the remedy(if where you're heading and traffic etc allows it off course) and the thing is straight again.


I'd prefer irl it to be a tad more not oversteery but understeery at that speed:)

Cheers
Robin
 

dud

500RPM
Premium
I'm not sure we have a problem here.

If real world lateral Gs without specific setup is 0.93 and game lateral Gs is 1.00 with tinkering I'd say that is a pretty damn good hit.

As I said earlier, I disagree that this car should have any downforce (more than lift) at all.
 

Kyuubeey

500RPM
I'm not sure we have a problem here.

If real world lateral Gs without specific setup is 0.93 and game lateral Gs is 1.00 with tinkering I'd say that is a pretty damn good hit.

As I said earlier, I disagree that this car should have any downforce (more than lift) at all.
There's some unclear things about the car, like if they lock out Weissach or not. If they don't, for sure that will influence the coast + cornering stability by providing potentially more toe-in than my system currently does. We can't really do it correctly, but I still have some tricks up my sleeve.

I can get my C2 to pull exactly whatever G is specified IRL, be it 0.83g or 0.86g, by tweaking tire grip up or down slightly or wearing the tires more or less. When it's so close it comes down to things like that. I think right now, it pulls about 0.82 - 0.83g holding a 60km/h turn. Mind you that a 1990's RS on 1990's tires pulls 0.90 - 0.91g.

With that in mind I find the 0.93g very hard to believe with modern tires. Put semis onto a stock C2 and it'll pull more than that, and the balance and LLD is way worse. We don't know enough; they could have pulled the skidpad G after overheating and wearing the tires down after all the other testing. It could be an old set to begin with. We just don't know enough. If I had more reliable info, I could make better guesses on the tires; but everything I could find about the set describes it as a very grippy set, and I've put mine on the low end here, not high end. The ballpark has more room up than down.

Look, you'll go into "more downforce than lift" territory by just lowering the car 50mm. Eliminating some of the flow from going under the car and funneling it over will probably net you a little bit of downforce total from the front aero elements; and this is with the stock aero implements, although they are quite good. I don't have data specifically on a 911 with front spook, but the rear spoiler is more aggressive for one, and I've never seen wind tunnel/CFD readings with a spook where lift didn't turn into downforce. Although those were always somewhat larger implements.

If you have some actual basis to back up your idea, like empiric data which supports it, please post it so you can help me. If you have some 911 wind tunnel readings with spooks, I'd REALLY want to see them. Thanks.
 

aphidgod

1000RPM
Don't bend over backwards trying to match the skidpad Gs to the hundredth. You won't ever know the exact condition of the car or the atmosphere or the tarmac from a given test, and that'll throw things off significantly in some cases. Different magazines testing the same car get different numbers and so can we.

A lot of "little" details like that are lost on people who don't do this, they think that kind of data is gospel. Sometimes it's accurate, sometimes it's actively unhelpful. (0.86g for the McLaren F1, anyone buying that?)
 

Kyuubeey

500RPM
Don't bend over backwards trying to match the skidpad Gs to the hundredth. You won't ever know the exact condition of the car or the atmosphere or the tarmac from a given test, and that'll throw things off significantly in some cases. Different magazines testing the same car get different numbers and so can we.

A lot of "little" details like that are lost on people who don't do this, they think that kind of data is gospel. Sometimes it's accurate, sometimes it's actively unhelpful. (0.86g for the McLaren F1, anyone buying that?)
Yep, it's more coincidence than not that the stock 964 even lines up. Besides, I should probably go back up on the grip to get closer to those 0.86g values. There's many of those so I think it's somewhat indicative of the tire grip level. It's easy to make your tires grip less, but a bit hard to make them grip more. :rolleyes:

You gotta use your head on these. If the stock 964 was pulling 1g and data says 0.8g, you get a bit worried. If the Singer pulls 1g and data says 0.93g, you're not gonna make your modern semislicks grip like a 90's tire to achieve that. Gonna be a hard sell.

Same reason you don't go matching 0-100 times or whatever too much. The 4.0L engine makes anywhere from 390 to 425bhp claimed, which is worth any time discrepancy there might be.
 

jonelsorel

250RPM
@Arch: the tires simulated are the Nitto NT01 (SM) and the road tires Pilot Sport PS2 (ST)?

Would it be useful to get real data from other cars using them?
 

Ghoults

1000RPM
Drove some laps around black cat county and I really liked the car. Very neutral and rear heavy like rear engined cars tend to be. Very neutral and great fun to just hoon around or go for a lap time. Carry little more speed, hit that apex and get on the power earlier. Very rewarding car to drive. And very fun. Maybe not the best race car as it doesn't like mid corner changes to different lines or little lifts and throttle hesitations. The car does punish you if you try to take corner using a wrong line as the car gets easily unbalanced mid corner if you try to change the trajectory or unsettle the car with sudden brake and throttle inputs. I'd not say it is difficult car to drive or that it bites hard when things go wrong because fast steering can get you out of most slides as long as you did not go in too fast and run out of road. And it is very controllable in slides as long as your slide is not unintentional combination of throttle lift+too early turn in.

I did not look at any datas but only thing that felt tiny small bit off was how the car handles hard compressions. I'd imagine literally all cars to gain little understeer due to various factors. The car is very nice and neutral through those situations which makes it drive a bit too good. I'd guess nordschleife's metzgesfeld or black cat county's couple of corners highlight that small issue but it is very small issue. (load sensitivity differences between the front and rear tires?).

Highly recommend.
 
love this car
only problem for me is after .964 rev counter is dead.
Headlamp visual model needs work to look realistic but beautiful to look at and drive .

superb work
Rick
 

Avo77

100RPM
After some discussions about aerodynamics I simplified a lot the aero model and, even with standard tires, the car become perfectly drivable (a bit nervous un throttle but manageable).

Let’s see what Arch will send us but aero was the main issue.
 
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