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New steering wheel for my setup

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Hi guys,
I want to change my t500rs with a brand new steering wheel but I’m a little bit doubtful. I firstly looked for a ts-pc racer because I also have t3pa pro pedals, but today I’ve seen the fanatec csl elite f1 and it looks a little better than the trustmaster. Am I right? Are the pedals better than the t3pa pro? The Csl should cost me 100€ more than the ts. I don’t know which rim is better.
Edit: I see the fanatec rim has not a d-pad. Does anyone use it with f1 games or similar?
 
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Fat-Alfie

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How about a sim.plicity direct drive wheel and keep your t3pa-pro pedals? I have the same set-up as you do and, and am considering either a 7nm or 10nm DD wheel next.
 

Jivesauce

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312
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553
I have a TS-PC Racer and love it. Comparing the two, I slightly prefer it over the CSL Elite, but they are so close in quality I think it's down to personal preference. At the time I bought mine the TS-PC Racer was slightly cheaper and, given my slight preference for the feel of it, it was an easy decision. I haven't used a T500RS so I can't say how big a difference a TS-PC Racer would be, although I've seen reviews saying it is noticeably better.

Sadly, you'll find horror stories about the customer service and QA of both Thrustmaster and Fanatec, so there isn't a clear winner there for me.

As someone else said, a CSW 2.5 is a significant step up from either one but you are probably several hundred dollars up in cost by the time you get your wheel(s) also. A tough decision to be sure.
 

RasmusP

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Not easy... Ts-pc is a plastic toy, csl elite is a metal+plastic semi toy with a too thin rim, worse shifting paddles, no d pad (you get a wobbly joystick, 4 directions) and of course it has the optical position sensor that seems like it's gonna fail 99% sure at some point (cleaning can help, new sensor costs about 20€ from what I remember reading).

Overall, I have a csw 2.5 after my 2 ts-pc I ordered had pretty bad coil whine. Csl was out because of the sensor issues.
You can customize more with the fanatec wheels, especially on the fly ffb strength and rotation degrees plus the biggest point: base friction/damping to get the best compromise of a beefy feeling and a very quickly rotating wheel.

Ts-pc has a very high base resistance which somehow vanishes when you start to really turn the wheel, csw 2.5 basically has no base resistance, feeling weird without some friction setting and the csl elite is somewhere in between...
Ts-pc feels thick and beefy, rotates quickly enough for drifting but the belt really makes some noise.

Overall, apart from plastics and coil whine and settings, the ts-pc will feel nicer.
Especially the formula rim (not the Ferrari Edition) will be great for F1 games.
The additional settings at the csl elite aren't really needed. They are meant for the csw base.

Conclusion: choose which looks you like better and which is cheaper.

I have the 2-pedal csl elite pedals and I love the feel compared to t3pa or g27 pedals. But I'm already on my second pots and if I don't use/clean them frequently they start to spike..
Also the 2 pedal config automatically calibrates itself, resulting in deadzones. Reaching 100% at only 90% of pedal movement and the first few percent are dead.
I got used to it though. I can slightly lean my feet on the pedals without pressing them and I can stop pressing my throttle like crazy due to not losing speed if I slightly get off the full maximum.

Loadcell is designed in a bad way. Pressing the pedal at the very top will result in a lot higher pressure registrated compared to pressing the pedal at the bottom (loadcell is registering "bending" of the pedal arm, not the actual pressure of the elastomer axis).

I guess if you're lucky with a ts-pc purchase and don't hear the coil whine (I'm very sensitive), it would be a lot cheaper and a better decision!

If you want something really better without spending a total fortune, a 7nm DD or the csw 2.5 is what you'd need. Alongside fanatec v3 pedals or something similar (used heusinkveld etc).

Good luck with whatever you choose :)

Written on my phone in bed, might find some weird sentences etc :p

Here's a little video from me comparing wheel start ups and throwing the rim. Quick, stupid compilation, shows a lot about the differences though.
Ts-pc Ferrari, g25, dfgt, g27, csw 2.5 (p1 Alcantara rim).

 
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Jivesauce

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553
Loadcell is designed in a bad way. Pressing the pedal at the very top will result in a lot higher pressure registrated compared to pressing the pedal at the bottom (loadcell is registering "bending" of the pedal arm, not the actual pressure of the elastomer axis).

I guess if you're lucky with a ts-pc purchase and don't hear the coil whine (I'm very sensitive), it would be a lot cheaper and a better decision!

If you want something really better without spending a total fortune, a 7nm DD or the csw 2.5 is what you'd need. Alongside fanatec v3 pedals or something similar (used heusinkveld etc).

Good luck with whatever you choose :)

I don't want to derail the thread, but I've seen this discussion of the loadcell design for the CSL Elite LC in the past and I have to say, I think the issue is exaggerated. Rasmus, you know 10 times more about this stuff than I ever will, and I have huge respect for your knowledge and the amount of help you provide around here, so I suspect I'm way off base here, but I have a couple thoughts about it.

First, you're absolutely right that the LC pedals do behave in that manner. However, at least in my experience, you tend to brake pretty much the same way every time to where it becomes muscle memory; even when heel-toeing and left foot braking I brake in pretty much the same place on the pedal, so it has never been an issue for me.

Second, and much more interesting, am I wrong in thinking that every brake pedal design would exhibit similar behavior? Whether it's a set of Heusinkvelds with the loadcell at the end of the piston, or even a real brake acting on a master cylinder, you're talking about using a lever arm to apply force to the piston. With the same amount of force applied to the lever arm, wouldn't you always expect to see less force transferred to the piston if you made your lever arm shorter?

Again, I'm a 3D artist not an engineer, so I'm probably way off base, I've just always had that thought in the back of my head when reading the discussion about those pedals.
 

RasmusP

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I don't want to derail the thread, but I've seen this discussion of the loadcell design for the CSL Elite LC in the past and I have to say, I think the issue is exaggerated. Rasmus, you know 10 times more about this stuff than I ever will, and I have huge respect for your knowledge and the amount of help you provide around here, so I suspect I'm way off base here, but I have a couple thoughts about it.

First, you're absolutely right that the LC pedals do behave in that manner. However, at least in my experience, you tend to brake pretty much the same way every time to where it becomes muscle memory; even when heel-toeing and left foot braking I brake in pretty much the same place on the pedal, so it has never been an issue for me.

Second, and much more interesting, am I wrong in thinking that every brake pedal design would exhibit similar behavior? Whether it's a set of Heusinkvelds with the loadcell at the end of the piston, or even a real brake acting on a master cylinder, you're talking about using a lever arm to apply force to the piston. With the same amount of force applied to the lever arm, wouldn't you always expect to see less force transferred to the piston if you made your lever arm shorter?

Again, I'm a 3D artist not an engineer, so I'm probably way off base, I've just always had that thought in the back of my head when reading the discussion about those pedals.
You're right, it is exaggerated, quite a lot.
I guess if you always keep your foot in the same position it doesn't really matter. Especially with left foot braking your foot never really moves anyway.

Nonetheless if OP thinks about paying more for the csl elite over the ts-pc, not getting a formula rim for his F1 games and no nice d-pad while at the same time thinking about getting csl elite pedals as a nice upgrade alongside, I'd rather point out the design flaws.
Non reliable pots and the inconsistent loadcell. It's especially bad imo since a loadcell pedal is bound to give you consistency, yet the design contradicts that pure purpose in some ways.

I'd rather see OP getting happy with the ts-pc and his existing t3pa and then getting used heusinkvelds or something like that at a later point :)

About the construction issue and other pedals being similar:
Sadly, I can't calculate you the linearity of the loadcell sensitivity over the change of leverage.
I'll try with words though:

With normal pedals where the pressure is measured at the "push rod", axis, piston, master cylinder, whatever:

If you move across the pedal arm/face, the leverage will increase or decrease and the force you will feel be less or more.
You will feel, that pressing the pedal is easier.
This happens in a linear way.
The force of your leg will always fully be registered. Pressing at the very top will add some force due to the leverage.

Now with the loadcell in the csl elites which registers the bending of the pedal arm, the sensitivity varies a lot more.

The problem here is that the whole pressure detection depends on the bending and therefore the leverage.
Pressing the pedal arm below the loadcell bending point will result in zero brake input. No matter how hard you squash those elastomers.
On the other hand due to the position of the loadcell bending point and the pedal face, you can easily double or even triple the leverage, and therefore directly the brake input.

Imagine that you wanna calculate the difference.

With a normal loadcell design you will have:
- pressing directly where the axis is:
Loadcell pressure = leg force * 1

- pressing at the very top of the pedal arm:
Loadcell pressure = leg force * (1+the tiny leverage)

Pedal will be easier to press and will register a little bit more.

Now the csl elite design:
- pressing at the axis:
Loacell pressure = bending of the pedal arm.
Which is none! None at all. The loadcell is above the axis so this will result in zero pressure being registered no matter what you do. (impossible though because the pedal plate/face is above the bending point)

- pressing at the middle:
Loadcell pressure = bending with normal leverage

- pressing at the very top:
Loadcell pressure = bending with doubled or tripled the leverage = 2-3x the registered force

It's difficult to explain for me but the difference is that the leverage with a normal loadcell design isn't changing much. Maybe 1-10%.
With the csl design though, depending on the position it's changing between -100% to +300%.
Pedal face restricting it to -30% to +50% or something like that.

There are videos out there where people get to 100% with their big toe pushing at the very top, while they can't go to 50% with the full force their body can give if they press at the lowest position...

Now a good point though as mentioned:
due to the pedal face being rounded and always being slightly above the loadcell bending point and the foot being mostly in the same position, the difference might only be 10-30%.

But we're talking about trailbrake consistency and looking at telemetry from really good drivers you can see that they brake within a few percent lap after lap.
A deviation of 20% just because they move their foot a little is pretty crucial for winning the next fight into a corner.

Hope that clears it up :)
If not I'll do some drawings hehe
 

Jivesauce

Premium
Messages
312
Points
553
You're right, it is exaggerated, quite a lot.
I guess if you always keep your foot in the same position it doesn't really matter. Especially with left foot braking your foot never really moves anyway.

Nonetheless if OP thinks about paying more for the csl elite over the ts-pc, not getting a formula rim for his F1 games and no nice d-pad while at the same time thinking about getting csl elite pedals as a nice upgrade alongside, I'd rather point out the design flaws.
Non reliable pots and the inconsistent loadcell. It's especially bad imo since a loadcell pedal is bound to give you consistency, yet the design contradicts that pure purpose in some ways.

I'd rather see OP getting happy with the ts-pc and his existing t3pa and then getting used heusinkvelds or something like that at a later point :)

About the construction issue and other pedals being similar:
Sadly, I can't calculate you the linearity of the loadcell sensitivity over the change of leverage.
I'll try with words though:

With normal pedals where the pressure is measured at the "push rod", axis, piston, master cylinder, whatever:

If you move across the pedal arm/face, the leverage will increase or decrease and the force you will feel be less or more.
You will feel, that pressing the pedal is easier.
This happens in a linear way.
The force of your leg will always fully be registered. Pressing at the very top will add some force due to the leverage.

Now with the loadcell in the csl elites which registers the bending of the pedal arm, the sensitivity varies a lot more.

The problem here is that the whole pressure detection depends on the bending and therefore the leverage.
Pressing the pedal arm below the loadcell bending point will result in zero brake input. No matter how hard you squash those elastomers.
On the other hand due to the position of the loadcell bending point and the pedal face, you can easily double or even triple the leverage, and therefore directly the brake input.

Imagine that you wanna calculate the difference.

With a normal loadcell design you will have:
- pressing directly where the axis is:
Loadcell pressure = leg force * 1

- pressing at the very top of the pedal arm:
Loadcell pressure = leg force * (1+the tiny leverage)

Pedal will be easier to press and will register a little bit more.

Now the csl elite design:
- pressing at the axis:
Loacell pressure = bending of the pedal arm.
Which is none! None at all. The loadcell is above the axis so this will result in zero pressure being registered no matter what you do. (impossible though because the pedal plate/face is above the bending point)

- pressing at the middle:
Loadcell pressure = bending with normal leverage

- pressing at the very top:
Loadcell pressure = bending with doubled or tripled the leverage = 2-3x the registered force

It's difficult to explain for me but the difference is that the leverage with a normal loadcell design isn't changing much. Maybe 1-10%.
With the csl design though, depending on the position it's changing between -100% to +300%.
Pedal face restricting it to -30% to +50% or something like that.

There are videos out there where people get to 100% with their big toe pushing at the very top, while they can't go to 50% with the full force their body can give if they press at the lowest position...

Now a good point though as mentioned:
due to the pedal face being rounded and always being slightly above the loadcell bending point and the foot being mostly in the same position, the difference might only be 10-30%.

But we're talking about trailbrake consistency and looking at telemetry from really good drivers you can see that they brake within a few percent lap after lap.
A deviation of 20% just because they move their foot a little is pretty crucial for winning the next fight into a corner.

Hope that clears it up :)
If not I'll do some drawings hehe

No need for drawings, I understand! Thank you for taking the time to write up such a thoughtful reply in such a way that even I can keep up :D

I would be stunned if my braking consistency had anywhere near 30% variance, but I could buy 10% maybe. It makes me want to try a different set of loadcell pedals now. Regardless, I'm going to make my wife read this thread. "You see, Rasmus explains very clearly here why I need a set of Heusinkvelds..." :roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:
 
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