My crazy practice start and other safety issues from Istanbul

Nicolai Nicholson · May 14, 2011

Hi guys, this thread is meant for taking a closer look at some situations at Istanbul that we can learn from and become wiser and safer

Situation one:
I'll start it of with my crazy practice start. It was beyond poor, it was inexcusable. Luckily it happened in the practice start and not the real one.

This is what happened:
15 minutes or so before qualify started I received a phone call and learned that I had to complete some important work that night (it involved upgrading some tricky programs on a server). I got quite stressed and knew that time would be terribly short if I participated in the race.

I started a few processes on my 4th(!) screen and did some work until it was time for practice start. I loaded my setup and went onto the grid maybe 1 minute before the count down ended. Waiting for cars to join the grid my mind drifted back to the work, but when everybody was on the grid and the race started I was focused again (I thought).

I got an ok start and I easily passed the car ahead who had a terrible start. Moments later I could make a relatively safe move on Vale's left. I did so and remember thinking; this is boarderline of what is safe. At that moment I realised I had forgotten what track I was on, thus what t1 looked like and when to brake! I had just started the race focusing only on getting off the line and manouvering safely down the straight. Suddenly the cars around me were slowing down and I knew I had messed up BIG TIME.

What went wrong here is simply that I was not focused in the minutes leading up to race start. The thought of t1 never entered my mind, I had not focused on what was comming.

It was a very strange incident, but in a race it would be beyond unacceptable. From now on I know that staying focused the last minutes before race start is a must.

Nicolai Nicholson · May 14, 2011

Situation two:

Reading one of Nicolas' posts made me think of my own almost incident which ended up with a pass on Vale that I'm not proud of.

Nicolas Rouge said:
I was overtaken by both Andy on my left and Anthony on my right. In the action, my braking spot was hidden so I missed it and braked too late (...)

Here is my story:

I was chasing Vale and got quite close to him towards the end of the long straight. I went left not to pass, but to be a bit safer, not braking with Vale right ahead of me. However, I could not see my braking point (start of curbs), this was strenghtened by the fact that Vale was blocking my view, and I braked too late, thus unintentionaly passing Vale in a bad way.

If the pass had been intended it would not be acceptable. Trying to outbrake somebody on the inside you better make sure you make the apex of the turn. Clearly you can see that I did not make the apex, thus making an unfair pass on Vale; I'm sorry for that Vale, but I never acctually intended to make a pass

Anyhoo, this indirectly resulted in Bob sending Vale into a spin two turns later.

The reason for this almost-incident from me was lack of racing practice (racing online with other cars). Even though I had just enough time to learn the track well enough to drive safe alone, I had not had enough practice among other cars.

I think not seeing a braking point because one are on the inside lane, perhaps with other cars blocking the view, is something that most of us have experienced. This can turn into a dangerous situation, so I think it is important to remind myself and everybody else about this.

Nicolai Nicholson · May 14, 2011

Situation three:
This is the last situation that I intended to bring up.

First of all, the only reason I am using this example is because I think it illustrates something important. It has nothing to do with the after-match. So what is the incident you ask? I do not dear say, so I'll rather say it is an incident between Mr. Smith and Mr. Jones

After looking at this I am thinking; I would definatly have pulled out of that overtaking attempt if I was Da... ehh, Mr Smith. To save me from time from going into the details, I hope the video is enough.

Now, I would be interested to know how many agrees with me and how many disagrees (who would have pulled out and who would have followed it through). Please write a post here and let me know. There is nothing wrong with not sharing my opinion, but I think stuff like this is important to discuss and we will as a league gain greatly from it. Also, this is a great way for me to find out who acctually follows this forum

EDIT: When writing your post, please also say your opinion about situation 2, assuming the overtake was intentional. Do you think that overtaking was ok or not (the missing the apex issue)?

PS: I so not use the "psedonyms" Smith and Jones to be sarcastic or anything (perhaps just a bit funny), but point is that the people behind the incident is not important, it is just the incident in itself that is.

David Turnbull · May 14, 2011

situation 1:

you should be banned Nico, i will not race in a league where........ hang on thats already been used

just unfortunate, can be understood with the amount of pressure your under to keep everything ticking over for us and in your private life, and as you say, at least it was the practise start.

situation 2:

i think in this case it was ok, vale had obviously seen you and left room, if he had made the turn in for the apex then a collision wouldve resulted but as it stood he was alert to what could happen, couldve ended diffrently but didnt, and theres alot of ifs and buts in racing, we should only examine incidents that are incidents, vale showed good driving to anticipate your manouver and you pulled it off without taking him or youself out so alls good.

situation 3:

mr smith feels you may be right, he was just explaining to me that he felt that his line all the way up the hill and into the corner didnt alter, mr jones wouldve known he was there with either mirror usage or sound, and mr smith didnt change line before or after slight sync issue so going by his replay there was no contact and feels mr jones went abit too far in the accusation that mr smith deliberatly wrecked his car as mr jones can clearly be seen to stay on track and retake his position before outbraking himself into the next corner, he feels it definatly couldve been avoided if he had just dropped back in and waited for a clearer oppertunity, but he also feels that with the benefit of hindsight and what happened later he might have done things differently.

mr smith says bye and cya at barca

Tim McIver · May 15, 2011

Situation 1:

Of course everyone makes mistakes. What is critical in this incident is that we all get to say 'no worries Nico everyone makes mistakes', which is very easy to do while Nico is saying, 'my fault, poor driving, I'll do everything in my power to never do that again'. Everyone is happy, we move forward having learned some lessons. We must follow Nico's lead and be super critical of our own driving, that was it will be easy for others to be supergenerous in their response.

Situation 2.

A good outcome, but like Nico says, definately a lesson worth learning. Going in to deep on the inside can end very badly! We've all done it, we will all try and avoid it at all costs in the future.

Situation 3.

The rules are very simple. If the front of you car is up the inside and more than half way along the other guy at turn in, you have the corner, he must leave you room. The place on the track where this incident happened is not so simple, its very hard to say where exactly the turn in point is. So I totally see how the incident felt very different from each perspective. Politically, it would definitely be of benefit for me to side with Mr Smith in this case... I think on balance however I think at turn in he did not have the corner and probably would have been wiser to back out of it. That said, on lap 1 I am always inclined to believe that there's someone on the other lane and not take the apex if there's any doubt. Lap 1 is always hard to know. Just to balance, Mr Smiths joke in the other post was warmly received with a smile!

Summery and Thoughts...

I think we are certainly suffering from a change in presto culture (the change happening for perfectly reasonably reasons). We are not gathering on the 5 lap server to battle nearly as much as we used too. We are not chatting on TS about life and racing during the week. With less race practice its a lot harder to know when to take the line and when to hold the outside and punish the aggressor by taking the next apex. There are places on each track (Barcelona especially) where you just don't want to get alongside someone. It might be theoretically possible to get the move done, but it might well require a tremendous amount of skill not only on your part but also on the guy who is being past. Getting overtaken in an F1 car takes a lot of practice!

With no friendly TS chat when incidents do arise friendship does not seem to guard us the way it has in the past. All that said, I got married and am simply not on the servers as much now, and everyone has busy lives. Part of the push from Jim and I for TS after the races is to encourage some friendly relating which should help each of us keep some perspective (me included) and bring back a bit of the fun to presto.

Long live PrestoGP. In Fun, in fierce competition, and in friendship.

Tim.

I love Presto

David Turnbull · May 15, 2011

mr smith thanks you for your political support and has now pencilled you onto his "safe" list.

Alex Galyutin · May 15, 2011

Situation 1.
Massacre

Don't know what to say, such crap sometimes happens, and it is never intentional.

Situation 2.
If it was intentional, it was too overoptimistic. Thumb up to Vale for leaving room and not turning in (like Schumi did one week ago

)
But anyhow if you are already ahead you are free to choose any line to go to next turn. Taking the apex is not mandatory.

Situation 3.
Red car should leave enough space, because another car is ALREADY inside. "Closing the door" is not an acceptable solution. BTW overtaking in that corner is always too dangerous, so if you are attempting, be sure to strictly follow the inside (or the outside) line.

Sean Greenlaw · May 15, 2011

situation 1:

One good idea is to always know what track your on

A good thing to do also before race's is to practise the inside braking line into corners where passing is possible and t1, so when in the race defending or out of normal racing line at starts you already have a idea where you can brake at the latest.

situation 2: See situ 1 :tongue: If its intentional pass you have got to be extra cautious to make sure you hit apex but also incase guy infront out brakes and turns for apex.

situation 3: If i get into a situation where i think a car is even got its nose up inside i try and stay in lane up till next corner, if Griff does this he would have held position next corner and no contact with Mel , Mel could have lifted to as probably wouldnt have passed through the next couple turns. I think Mel is just trying to put Griff out of position into next couple corners and then onto straight he can pass. Did i get the correct Smith and Jones ?

Heres my uber cautious start

Valter Ostman · May 15, 2011

1. He he he... even the sun has its spots.

2. It’s always a risk involved in overtaking or trying to make yourself hard to overtake. To be honest, we always try to brake just in time. It would not be much racing to talk about if we just let people pass very easily. I can take this opportunity to apologise to all involved for braking to late in the same spot as Nicolai. I tried to make it hard for David to overtake me, but I dangerously missed apex in front of two cars and was last out from T12.

When entering a corner behind a car I use the car in front as reference. I brake a little earlier/softer and try to get as close as possible before apex. Sometimes if the guy in front brakes to late and go off - I follow him off track. In this case I did the mistake completely on my own.

3. It’s lap two, both have good rubber and a lot of fuel. Usually I can't get the right feeling for the car the first four laps. I think I’m too cowardly to have dared to try to pass there.

Mr Smith had his car on the inside and kept the line, he would not have received any criticism for overtaking there IRL. Bad luck that there was “air” contact.

If I would try to overtake in turn three depends a bit on who the driver in front is and if I suspect he has worn tyres or something else that gives me the edge. On the other hand I could pursue to T9, T12 or T1 if I knew I’m faster.

I think two reasonably calm drivers can go side by side through the whole T3 to T6 combination if they are aware of each other. (It would make a very nice video clip)

I think we have no definite right answers to how to act in all the complex situations we face in our races. We can only hope that all drivers act in good will and follow our golden rules.

David Turnbull · May 15, 2011

i was one of the guys you nearly hit valter, i didnt mention it in my report because i didnt want people to know i had an accident in my pants at that moment in the race

was close but ended well and we know it wasnt intentional so alls well that ends well

p.s now that ive calmed down and back on track again (so to speak) i really wish me and Joe couldve sorted our little "air contact" (as valter calls it) out in the forum afterwards, seems joe had been on the recieveing end of the sync issue before as i was myself so both of us has experience in dealing with it (i dealt with it in my usual manner at the time unfortunatly) but if we couldve talked about it after it may never have got to the point of joe being so angry, awe well whats done is done i suppose.....

Valerio Vinassa · May 15, 2011

1) thought

Nico failed on brake pedal or air in brake-tube:wink:

2) I dont see anything of strange in this situation IS RACE

I saw you arrived and so for avoid incident let a bit of safe room you are too long and out of line for the curve so you nedeed a bit of space for turn I let you

the race is long, if I dont think about my spin in this chicane there was a good battle.

3) this is the classic situation: .......brake you no brake you......you have see me, and you dont see me........:wink: have both reason
is not always simply take the right decision in 1000/sec but if you think that the race is long sure another chanche will be and if you are more strong/intelligent you can try to pass him in other place.

Anthony Ishak · May 15, 2011

I would like to make a general comment and not directly commenting on the above mentioned situations if that is ok with you Nico.

I would like to mention first that a constructive criticism has the tendency to strengthen relationships between people and that we all should look for, therefore I decided to try to be a bit more open and tackle few things in the core with friendly intention of course, that is my style as I am criticising myself first before anyone else and i am putting myself under the test so I knowwhere i can improve.

If I am a new driver and eager to join PrestoGP , I open the presto document to get an idea of what this league is all about I can read the following : “ All our members should have a “gentleman’s approach” to racing, they should put fair play highly. Having a friendly and helpful environment is something we value....everybody are expected to play by the rules andself regulate themselves. At race day there are a lot of drivers around yout hat have spent many hours preparing for this event. For obvious reasons safe racing is of paramount importance for the league. One driver’s mistake can ruin the long awaited evening for innocent drivers. It is therefore important that all drivers do their best to be incident free in as many races as possible. Be determined to finish your race and to not end anyone else's!

It is clear that joining this league would mean that lots of fun is awaiting me in a warm environments as I will be racing with highly disciplined, well respected drivers that are willing to put fair racing ahead and above any oftheir self interests, they would value friendships and they will do everything intheir power to keep me on track so I can stay entertained, race after race “accordingto the document” ....

Now if we ask ourselves in an honest and open way: Are we really doing everything in our power by taking all safety measures into account to avoid any unnecessary incident when overtaking someone even if that meant toback off and cancel the pass in order to keep my friend on track and not ruin his long awaited evening so we both can have lots of fun while racing or are we taking unnecessary risks and rushing after our thirsts for winning places by committing hit or miss passes? I leave the answer to every member including me..

I believe any driver who promotes and believe in fair driving should respect his words and any driver who he is constantly putting his car in a high risk and dangerous positions when following another driver on track and in result he commits a failed pass or fails to stop his car at the right time constantly race after race then his action is considered as he has the intention of” knocking someone of track on purpose without really mean it”.If you honestly do not have that intention then why would you create that right environment for that incident?

If we really believe that everything is running perfectly and smoothly in this league and that every single member is doing his ultimate best to follow what is written in the document to create a friendly and fun environment for his follow friend on track then something is missing here ...i am sure mistakes happen, if there is no challenge then there is no fun, that is part of racing, otherwise we keep racing in circles until someone misses the turn and we pass... but what is really worrying is that some drivers are constantly and for the last 3 seasons their races have been ended as they have been taking out by other drivers and within couple of laps from the start “ regardless of the reason or who was at fault or whatever” , to that extend that a driver for the same reason has failed to enjoy a single race for a 4 consecutive races ... can we still call that a fairplay? And that everything is ok and nothing is wrong with our driving style?....maybe we need to look closer and be honest with ourselves to reassess our driving style in order to move forwards and strengthen the friendship bound of this league! .. The most importing thing is that we learn from our mistakes and “ if it does not kill you, it makes you stronger”..

Every driver expects a reward for his hard preparation for every race, fun battling with someone, executing a well deserved pass or winning a podium or a race. A reward is a must for everyone to keep the motivation at its best and the good spirit of the friendship within the league super high, and if a driver constantly fails to “collect” his rewards from races “even if we say sorry to eachother and everything is good” it still have that negative effect on the victim by killing his motivation and sending his high spirit south down to the ground....what type of spell would you believe can be cast upon the general environment of theleague when we are constantly having low motivated drivers on track?

If we believe that knocking out a driver on purpose cannot be defended, rationalized or tolerated, which I fully do agree and fully support this statement , i believe as well that insulting a driver/ a person openly in the forum , regardless of the reason,cannot be defended , rationalized or tolerated, such an action does not only break the golden rule but it is breaking the fundamental reason for the existingof this league.

In a separate note , i do agree with Tim when it comes to gathering on the 5laps server and the TS, i use to be almost on daily basis for years , mainly with Tim, Joe ,Noel , Grassmick, Anthony M and Arno and with some other people having lots of fun and preparing for races , actually having more fun than in the real races , counting the number of my DNFs but then things changed “ mostly work or family commitments, but hopefully we can get it back as it is important part of promoting safe driving..

Finally, I would like to say that the organizers of this league are working extremely hard to keep this league running in a friendly and professional way “ free of charge” backed by one purpose which is fair play to create the right fun environment for everyone , we can sing and dance and write nice words in the forum prising their hard work but honestly the only way that we really pay back for their hard work is for each and everyone one of us taking the full responsibility to respect and implement the rules that promote fair and safe driving for more enjoyable races ,in other words keeping a gentlemen’s league falls fully on our shoulders and not on the shoulders of the organizers..

Sorry for this long post but i felt for writing what is in my mind as i do care like anyone of you for the continuation of this superb league in the right direction...

Angelo..

David Turnbull · May 15, 2011

i agree with a lot of what you say there, but the idea is fun and to be competative, if we wanted a procession we'd be as well just staying in our qualifying positions the whole race, races are won and lost by overtakes and daring manouvers, sometimes they come off, sometimes they dont, not always is someones race ruined by a manouver gone wrong but it happens and we deal with it, its the ones that should not happen in the first place that folk get angry and im talking mainly about sync issues, the game isnt the best when connection is concerned so theres glitches and blips that sometimes cause problems, ive found out about that now so in future ill be alot more forgiving if it happens again.

i look on you all as friends, and sometimes friends say stupid things that they dont mean (mainly me) but when your on the recieveing end of what i was then im not going to hold back in a forum or server or face to face. i let my emotions control me sometimes and dont think before i speak (type)but i always go back and change or apologise if its went too far, some of you will know me well enough by now to understand my mannerisms and are able to deal with it, some wont like it and say i shouldnt be here along with joe, thats their choice and not everyone will get along all the time but the next race i turn up to ive forgotten any bad feeling i had after the race before mainly because i know none of us actually means to ruin anyone elses race/evening.

ill continue to attack or defend in races equally sometimes a move might come off sometimes it wont but ill always try to be competative, if i went to a race with the intentions of just holding back id be as well not turning up, the crucial thing is that IF any accident happens, it wasnt ment to happen, it wasnt planned and if someone ruins anothers race you can be sure he feels as bad as his victim.

as regards ts, i think youll all agree it might not be the best place for me to be on race day but ill try and pop on when im on the 5 lapper and hopefully get to know some of you better then at least youll understand what im like as a person as opposed to a name and words and occasionally a car going past/back the way.

David

Bob Laube · May 15, 2011

1.)
We could all see, our Chief makes a mistake once!
This was for all to look good because it was only start the practice

2.)
I can not find anything incorrect?

3.)
it should have been Syncronisation error?, can such a thing happen again and again. We can talk about it, but it will not help.
But - wait and shoot someone intentionally, may be tolerated in no case!
Well, earlier, the good old days

there were even all on race day at the limiter in the pit lane

CHEERS

Peter Marshall · May 16, 2011

S1. lol

definitely a race restart!

S2. Touch n go for me. The 'ol brake early, wait, undercut might have been on for Vale?

I agree with Nico that we should generally shoot for the corner apex when on the inside. Leaving room for our opponent to manoeuvre and brake safely is important.

This squabbling for position did result in flow on effects for those chasing; that's racing but worth mentioning...

S3. I think "Mr Smith" was probably well placed to make the decision of whether to back out or not. Either way, "Mr Jones" had an alternative line that would have been safe in either case and chose not to use it.

I know the sync issue will affect this judgement but my opinion is unchanged by this; safety first I say.

Expanding a little on Tim and Anthony's thoughts but speaking strictly only for myself.

I'd be a driver amongst those who practices least. I wont allocate any more time to it. 3 hours preparation over two weeks is enough for me [plus the hour practice session on the day]. This may compare woefully to those who practice everyday/ night. Thanks largely to the set-up thread I am not too far off a reasonable pace nowdays but still well short of Reik, David, Sean, Tim etc,etc. :good:

If there were enough drivers for a second division, I would happily run with them allowing more uber-competitive drivers' the hard racing they may desire. It is nice to race all together and amongst the alien speed drivers, but it does appear to cause the odd problem when there is an incident between a so-called Top Driver and a so-called slower less-skilled driver. Regardless, I tend to think that clean racing is more attitude than track practice or skill.

I too love Presto, so you will all need to put up with me for a time yet.

Jim Hawley · May 16, 2011

Jim

S1, This is why the practice start is a good thing, we can make a silly mistake there (although we try not to), then do it right when it comes down to the race proper

S2, This is very like my move on Kurt (somewhere around lap 2-4?), I too had moved left as we approached the braking zone, missed it and sent one deep up the inside, which turned a mistake into an overtake, it was not my plan as we neared the corner, we are lucky both Vale and Kurt are smart cookies

S3, It's fairly harmless on the face of it, what I would say though is, with minimal braking at that corner and a tight right hander to follow I'm not sure it's possible to pass there, you will find it hard to get completly in front and will have to yield the apex for turn 4, I would not have tried it myself < (edit, thats a daft thing to say:frown: how could I know what I would have done in the heat of competion?)

If you are going to try something like that tho, I think the first rule is, you must get very tight to the curb (preferably two wheels on it), mr Smith failed to do this? or is that the sync issue?

Jim

Reik Major · May 16, 2011

First of all I'd like to say that I'm very happy to see this honest and sence full discussion here! The shame is that similar to real life the worst situation had to take place before we all woke up. :frown: This is human nature it seems.

For me Anthony I. is one of the most respected guys here and his post touched me very much. This post showed me that I was watching through pink glasses the last time, seeing a perfect world which doesn't exist.

I tell you I'd like to write soooooo much about this debate, but there's been writen one so wise sentence, which expresses it all and summes it up in a simple formula:

Peter Marshall said:
Regardless, I tend to think that clean racing is more attitude than track practice or skill.

As an example I'd like to apply this formula to situation 3 from the first post.

If I judge this situation from the perspective of real life racing, I'd say both drivers had their right to act like they did and there for they both were right. Finally it would be booked as a normal racing incident (and the drivers still get paid for there driving, because it's their job!).

But if I apply Peter's wise formula and give attitude the highest priority, I have to say both drivers were wrong!

Why?

Because the Red Bull driver's first intention was to pass as quick as possible instead of keeping a cool head and waiting for a better chance (which was supposed to come very soon!).

And the Ferrari driver's first intention was to get back to the ideal line as quick as possible instead of being aware of the car(s) surrounding him and holding his line.

This doesn't mean that I plead for racing without any daring moves. But before a driver dares a move he should ask himself how much he wants to dare!

That's why I plead for more "planned" moves!

When I close up to a car in front and a battle seems to be happening very soon I check the following things most likely before every corner:

Who is the driver in front of me? (considering his skills and average speed)
How possible is it he breaks earlier than me? (more cars in front? worn tires? more fuel?)
How much earlier do I have to break? (considering higher speed and less down force because of slip stream!!!)
Do I have alternative breaking references if the usual ones are hidden by the opponent?
Do I know where and when to break if I'm besides the racing line?
Am I able to handle the car 100% at the passing moment? (considering the risk of over breaking and power oversteering)

I know you are all great racers, so it must sound like a teacher tells you already known things again. But I sometimes have the feeling that we say things like "I should have known better" way to often instead of asking "do I know better?" already before acting. And I agree with Anthony that it can reach a level, where an apology doesn't make things any better.

PS:
When the day comes we are all through with this in my eyes very healthy debate and all members are satisfied with its result, I plead for giving everyone(!) a second chance and start from zero again in the next season.
In the meantime the remaining two events should prove we do not only have the same goal but we all like to reach this goal in the same way...

David Turnbull · May 16, 2011

this is NOT ment as a go at you reik but....

you remember that you took me out on sepang due to you being very impatient and rear ended me ruining my race?

what i mean by that last comment is that everyone and i include folk like reik from the planet krypton, makes mistakes.

i dont mean to sound nasty but sometimes i think some peoples advice goes over the top,i know this advice comes from respected racers but some of them are as guilty as the rest of us about making mistakes which encompass ruining races and being impatient.

seems some of us are so good at giving advice out but when it comes to putting it into practise they are the same as everyone else on the track, they want to win, they chance their luck with manouvers that dont come off sometimes.

like i said its not a personal attack on anyone in specific, id just like to make it known that some of the folk giving advice here have caused in the past some of the problems were now trying to sort out.

David

(i only used you as an example here reik nothing else is ment by it, that incident is forgotten about but it still can be used as an example of one of the best drivers getting it wrong)