My crazy practice start and other safety issues from Istanbul

[David Turnbull]

reik, could you add me to msn if you use it ( kt010x8289@blueyonder.co.uk), id like to explain my last post it may sound diffrent to what i mean and my pm's dont work here for some reason.

@jim, it was for position on the 2nd lap. and could you check your pm's to see if that worked m8.

 

[David Turnbull]

Jim

If you are going to try something like that tho, I think the first rule is, you must get very tight to the curb (preferably two wheels on it), mr Smith failed to do this? or is that the sync issue?


Jim

in reply to this jim, no, the sync issue was where joe actually bounced through air contact, this is where he got the idea that id deliberatly rammed him and which caused the events later in the race.

i agree totally with what youve said regards this incident, and pretty much everyone else, what ill say in my defence is, ive watched seans replay of his start and its plain to see that all the way round from t1 to t6 or so its quite easy to go 2 a breast on the track, thats what id have done, i wouldnt have tried to outbrake him into t4 that wouldve been crazy, but id have stayed alongside him pressuring him into either yeilding or making a mistake, i thought this wouldve been the correct and fair way to get passed him as he was alot slower, i didnt want to just barge past at a corner somewhere along the lines but i also didnt want to wait for a lap or 2 before finally making an attempt at a pass, at the time of the incident i felt id left plenty of room and thought joe had known i was there, he turned in and air contact was made, in hindsight id definatly have waited and as you say jim heat of the competition probably dictated that i was destined to try that move no matter what, next time ill yeild so as not to cause any problems

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

As somebody mentioned above somewhere, for me one of the deciding factors would be (if I was the Red Bull car) who is in the other car, and what lap are we on. The answer to these questions would tell me the likelyhood of the other driver being aware of me and also are ready/skilled enough for the two abrest around those corners.

In this situation the answer would be Joe on lap two. I think this would be the deciding factor for me to pull out; maybe the least skilled driver in the field, early in the race when the stress-level is high.

I would also like to point out that this discussion is not about people, if the only people who are allowed to share their thoughts are the once who never makes mistakes/never have been too aggressive, it will be a most silent discussion.

One thing that makes this dicussion tricky is that it is a very thin line between great racing and unsafe racing. If David's opponent in that turn was say Andy, it could have turned out to be a great battle that both would enjoy a lot.

I agree that Joe should have anticipated that David was on his inside, but if it was me in the Red Bull I would be far from certain of it. I do not believe the mirrors work that well, at least not on my rig. I am guessing, if I was Joe I would probably have guessed that David was there, but I do not think my mirrors or the sound would have helped me to be certain.

 

[Reik Major]

this is NOT ment as a go at you reik but....

You remember that you took me out on sepang due to you being very impatient and rear ended me ruining my race?

What i mean by that last comment is that everyone and i include folk like reik from the planet krypton, makes mistakes.

Of course I remember it :frown: and of course I felt very sorry about it. Don't forget I waited for you. But to say I was VERY impatient is just a very subjective point of view, which has the potential to throw oil in the fire again. You can't mistake it with a daring overtaking move which was the core of my last post. I was only chasing you close out of a slow corner, when your car unexpectedly stopped accelerating and I slightly touched you.

I never said I'm free of mistakes and it makes me feel a littel sad that your post reads like I claimed to be so. :frown:

At least I can say I learned from that incident (which I took complete responsibility for) because I reviewed it to get my lesson. And I think I didn't make much more mistakes this seasons. Including our one you'll find exactly 2(!) for this season. Last season I had no incident.

i dont mean to sound nasty but sometimes i think some peoples advice goes over the top,i know this advice comes from respected racers but some of them are as guilty as the rest of us about making mistakes which encompass ruining races and being impatient.

seems some of us are so good at giving advice out but when it comes to putting it into practise they are the same as everyone else on the track, they want to win, they chance their luck with manouvers that dont come off sometimes.

like i said its not a personal attack on anyone in specific, id just like to make it known that some of the folk giving advice here have caused in the past some of the problems were now trying to sort out.

David, you must stop thinking that I'm giving any advices! They are all suggestions included in my own personal opinion. I'm a kind of human being who likes to communicate and throw in his opinion as often as possible. This doesn't mean that my opinions are more important than other one's opinions. The only one who gives advices is the Race Director.

I honestly give in, that it may sound like the champ speaks to the crowd from his thron giving advices. But if it realy feels this way for you, then you are reading my posts with a wrong intention.:frown:

Finally I don't want you to worry David, it requires much more to offend me. :wink: Be sure I got the objective message from your post and I mean this honestly not sarcastic!

 

[Jim Hawley]

Looking at it some more... I'd like to add

Although the Redbull does not hold a particularly tight line, the Ferrari does cut in quite sharply, more sharply than you should perhaps if you "suspect" there maybe a car on your inside


Jim

 

[David Turnbull]

i know you apologised reik and it was duely accepted, maybe i used the wrong situation i only tried to use it as a way to say that even the best make mistakes, and i didnt mean the advice is not taken on board, some of the advice is great and the help that the faster guys give us slower guys does really help, just sometimes in situations like this it can be a bit too much if you know what i mean.

if i should shut up now then let me know lol

anyhoo reik, i still take everything you say onboard, your the best driver in the division and very level headed so it would be silly not to listen to your thoughts on any particular situation and i value your opinion alot.

edit: i didnt mean for it to sound like that, could it be alot is lost in translation between a few of us? if anyone doesnt have a clue what i say most of the time just say so and ill try and explain better, just that tryin to put feelings into words sometimes doesnt work great.

 

[Reik Major]

he, now you make my face getting red! thx for the compliments!

Just for your info. All my friends, family and even my girl some times hate me for telling to much of my "opinions". :tongue: And I'm guilty that I always try to have the most correct opinions and the most perfect solutions. So you didn't judge me wrong. LOL

But you can be sure I know about this personal issue myself and I'm working on it... :tongue:

 

[Jim Hawley]

its plain to see that all the way round from t1 to t6 or so its quite easy to go 2 a breast on the track,

It can be done m8, I'm sure we (me n you) could do it, as could a good few others in presto (most in fact), I wouldn't hesitate to go wheel to wheel with most of the grid here, like casual **x, it's a bit risky but it's great fun but as someone else points out here, I might have tiptoed around that car a bit:tongue: and one other

Jim

edit: I've just realised what a hypocrite I am, think back to Imola after my little 360 I lost the plot and tried to drive around, under and through anything that was in my way, including the wall at Tamburello, which of course did not move (not even a little bit)
oke:< Jim

 

[Sean Greenlaw]

My general rule for prestogp is we are all a bunch a racers looking for close as possible clean racing and we have to approach this in belief that everyone in league is trying to do this. What can help is if we drive in a predictable manner and try to avoid contact.

However mistakes will always happen human error , graphics glitchs and lag or lost connections. We have to live with these in my opinion. Then people can talk about them work them out on forums and see what could have been done to avoid safely we move into next race everyone a little wiser and i think vids are a good way of explaining them( sometimes lost in translation).

I think we are now begining to over analyse what was a racing incident which should have ended on forums with a 'sos , i was trying to keep inside line, if i had lifted it would have avoided incident ' from mr smith and a 'np i wasnt sure you were on inside i could have held lane into next turn it would have avoided incident' from mr jones.

We only really talking so much about it because it caused what we thought to be a prestgp driver to go out wait and take a guy out deliberatly, however this in turn shows that mr jones was never a prestogp driver to heart in my opinion.

I think we should start to not just note the racing incidents, but all the good wheel to wheel action that happens race after race. Maybe everyone post a short clip of there best move, pass, 3 abreast moments or defending.
I miss the days when i talented individual would make a highlight reel.

Who remembers this ? this my 1st ever race with presto, i think i get a good pass in highlights :wink:

Long live presto gp !!!

 

[Jim Hawley]

We've deffo got a lot better since those days Sean, and the new guys that come along are better than we were back then I think

Jim

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

We only really talking so much about it because it caused what we thought to be a prestgp driver to go out wait and take a guy out deliberatly, however this in turn shows that mr jones was never a prestogp driver to heart in my opinion.

I think you have misunderstood me totally. I wish this wasn't the incident that caused the blackout, because it has nothing to do with my point.

This "incident" is used because it illustrates the boarderline between acceptable risk or not. And I wish to know who would have gone through with the move and who would not. The same goes for my pass on Vale; who think one needs to make the apex if one want's to try to outbrake somebody on the inside and who doesn't.

Just to make it clear, I do not think the David Joe incident classifies as a reportable incident, nor my pass on Vale.

I think we should start to not just note the racing incidents, but all the good wheel to wheel action that happens race after race. Maybe everyone post a short clip of there best move, pass, 3 abreast moments or defending.
I miss the days when i talented individual would make a highlight reel.

I agree, the race report would be a good place for this. Many already makes great reports, but there is nothing wrong with a video that shows some good action

 

[Sean Greenlaw]

Ye if was your pass nico, i wouldnt class incident but if was mr jones or smith i would have probablly put in incident thread after watching replay with my explanation. Both just racing incidents though.

ye jim lol and its same track

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

I agree with that, but the questions are;

would you have followed Davids line or would you have at some stage let off the accelerator and waited for a later opportunity to pass Joe

if you were in my situation, would you have tried to outbrake Vale without the intention of making the apex?

EDIT: I realise the intentions of my thread have slowly vanished (probably wasn't to well explained in the first place.) Sorry for "using you" to remind everybody about the core questions. That is not to say that the other discussions are wrong, I just hope that everybody will answer my questions as well

 

[Jim Hawley]

Guys

Here's my move on Kurt:

which is almost identical to Nico's on Vale

Yes I do think it's critical when making a pass that you get to the apex curb, although until I got there I wasn't sure whether I would or not, I did so all good, the fact that this ended up working out well owes much to Kurts good awareness and experience

This move was not planed, I tried to pick my brake point whilst not being directly behind Kurt, just in case, turned out I braked a fair bit later than him, I held my breath for a few seconds, braked hard, changed down and hugged the curb, it could so easely have gone wrong, sometimes a little bit of luck plays a big part

In answer to Nico's question "would you have followed Davids line" I'd like to think that I would have held it tighter to the curb, or not gone for it at all, but I don't know, these things happen very fast, it's easy to be objective sitting here typing, in the heat of a race it's different, who knows what any of us would have done?

or if I was in the red car, "would I have turned in so sharply"? is also a valid question?

Jim

 

[David McCradic]

I think drivers should always be aware of what is going on ahead of and behind them. At the beginning this is extremely difficult, but after a few laps I personally use XD overlay to watch +/- times ahead/behind, and the track map to see where people are on track. I usually have 1-3 points on the track where I can check these things, and I try to keep an understanding of what is going on with the people ahead of me and behind me, especially around pit stop times because I generally use different strategies.

If someone behind me is only maybe tenths of a second per lap faster than me, or if I just made a slight mistake that cost me a few tenths of a second, I use an obviously defensive line that indicates to the person behind me that I wish to maintain my position.

If the person behind me is clearly faster than me, then I generally drive normal lines up to the point where they are within passing distance, then I give them space when they make their move. This usually happens into a long braking zone. I brake normally on the racing line, and I let them go inside, and basically go wide of the apex and do the "Crossover" line.

You can't expect a driver that is 1-2 seconds per lap faster than you to simply wait for you to pit or make a mistake, they are faster, they know it, they see it on every corner, and they are going to try to get by where they think they can. This doesn't mean you should pull off the race track, but you're much better off understanding where your true pace puts you in the race, accept it, and enjoy your true battles rather than fight a potentially dangerous losing battle.

 

[Peter Marshall]

And I wish to know who would have gone through with the move and who would not. The same goes for my pass on Vale; who think one needs to make the apex if one want's to try to outbrake somebody on the inside and who doesn't.

To be succinct:

S2. I would always try and make the apex and leave racing room for my opponent, or I would consider that I made the mistake if there were contact.

S3. I would have backed out of corner had I been the Red Bull Driver.

 

[Fabrice Renault]

This thread is important. I watch him carefully. I read and reread all the posts several times. But I often struggle to understand the whole thought of this or that person. Sorry, my English is too poor.

For now (among the messages that I understand better), I fully agree that this writing McCradic David, for two reasons:

1 - Everyone must be constantly informed on the progress of other competitors, especially those close to him. XD is essential for this. The circuit board and mirrors as well. The reason is that the (sim) racing is a group experience. So everyone should consider the other, not just himself and his own performance.

2 - The race, this communal experience, remains primarily a competition, which generates the notion of individual performance. There are people very successful and others less successful. The slower, must not hindering the fastest. I think this rule is important to keep intact the notion of competition. Everyone must be concientes of its own performance in every race, every lap and every moment. Nobody should unduly compromising the perfomance of a faster competitor. In a second step, the fastest competitor must also respect others. It must not compromise the slowest racer, who is ofen more in the difficulty than the first racer. A difficult balance to achieve, but possible if everyone on the same rule in mind.

They are rules that i trying to respect as much as i can.

 

[Reik Major]

reik, could you add me to msn if you use it ( kt010x8289@blueyonder.co.uk), id like to explain my last post it may sound diffrent to what i mean and my pm's dont work here for some reason.

Sorry David, I don't use msn and I still don't know much about it.

I also had trouble with my pm's in the past, because it didn't let me send any, even though I completely removed my received messages. It took me a while to notice, that also each of my sent meassages had been stored, so my maximum storage volume got reached without noticing.

After deleting them everything worked well. Hope you get your issue fixed so you can send me your love letters!

 

[Nicolai Nicholson]

Heres my uber cautious start

Perfect driving! If I may comment, you are on the right side of the track from the start, and at all time you make sure nobody can be on your right (making sure there is no room there) and always leave plenty of room on your left side.

 

[David Turnbull]

Nico, ill give you a bit of advice here, i know Sean personally and the last thing you want to do is compliment him on "perfect driving" none of us will be able to get on the server next race with the size of his HEAD!!.