AC Multiclass @ Red Bull Ring - Sun 21 July 2019

[jayk]

Started on Soft's and pitted after ~15 laps.. changed to Medium's then. Which were pretty cold during the whole race So should have gone on Soft's and pit at half-distance, I suppose
Which tyres did you have?

I stayed on softs, and when they were really worn i was loosing about 1.5 seconds to my peak time sometimes less. I got to 32 mins left and pitted for a fresh set of softs and fuel and it worked out well.

 

[HF2000]

Started on Soft's and pitted after ~15 laps.. changed to Medium's then. Which were pretty cold during the whole race So should have gone on Soft's and pit at half-distance, I suppose
Which tyres did you have?

Mediums all the way, pitstop at 40min (roughly halfway) with tyre change. I found the car with my driving style a bit unstable at softs and I should have used a different setup for it. I had no time to do that and I didn't know how long the softs would last. I felt comfortable on the mediums although all four tyres remained cold which was especially difficult in the long left turn (5?) with the off camber on the outside.

 

[HF2000]

I stayed on softs, and when they were really worn i was loosing about 1.5 seconds to my peak time sometimes less. I got to 32 mins left and pitted for a fresh set of softs and fuel and it worked out well.

Yes but you were driving the 650. The 911 eats the rear tyres like no other car. With worn tyres the 911 you loose grip and start drifting.
But I very eager to learn so if you have any suggestions that might help, I would be grateful.

 

[GEO147]

I might try that Porsche Han! It certainly suits your driving style as you have gotten faster since switching to it.

 

[HF2000]

I might try that Porsche Han! It certainly suits your driving style as you have gotten faster since switching to it.

Would you like to have my setup? It's of course suited for my driving style but with it I come close to the pace of John Power, depending on the track. It sucked at Road America for instance but on the RedBullRing it went ok.

 

[Ronnie Böhme]

@Chris Down (I think it was you. Otherwise it might have been @jayk, @GEO147 or @Medilloni) I'm so sorry for the incident at turn 4 (I think). First of all it was a very optimistic move and that is totally on me. That said, when I was trying to go on the inside, braking really late, probably too late, your car moved about 1.5m towards mine (looked to me like you were slipping on the curb under braking in the replay). I've tried to avoid contact but locked up and lost control. Hitting the green didn't help either. So once again, appologies for that very optimistic (aka stupid) move that turned out the worst way possible.

After all the comments about rude LMP behaviour, which I believe even caused drivers to leave, I want to appologize if there were any incidents caused by me. I gave my best to overtake / lap GT3 cars fair and square but maybe I missed a situation where a GT3 driver got into trouble because of me. If that was the case I appologize.

And then there were a few situations where GT3 drivers were appologizing to me for holding me up. Once I got stuck behind an overtaking of 2 GT cars and had to wait to squeeze through for example. No worries guys, the faster car is responsible to time, position and execute the overtake. As long as you don't change the lines when we are side by side, it's all on the LMP guys. It's really polite to say sorry but that's racing and it's the reason I like multiclass races so much. It's a completely different challenge. I've also seen guys leaving the track or even spinning because they've tried to give me room (makes me feel really bad to see someone spin in the rear view mirror). That is really well meant, too, but also not really necessary. Just do your thing and be predictable. And most of all have fun and enjoy the race.

Thanks @JoelK for organizing! Looking forward to the next race.

 

[Joakim Stensnæs]

If you were in a GT3 car, even though you're a much quicker driver than I, you certainly wouldn't have had the huge speed advantage (and therefore, the speed differential) an LMP has to be there in the first place. If you were in a GT3 car I would have been aware of you sooner and you might have used the extra car's width to your right, knowing that any overtake round the outside is risky, purely because it's hard to tell how committed to the corner the other car is. But taking that risk in an LMP, imo, is unnecessary when you can blast past on the short straight ahead.

I've been in a similar situation many times, racing hard against others in the same class, and never taken anyone out on the outside, so if I'm coming across a bit grumpy, I think your question is a bit insulting and totally unfair given the advantages LMP drivers have


At the end of the day, I'd committed to the corner (you can hear power-on from the apex) well before you got there - and to be honest, I was a bit surprised you didn't do the sensible thing that Joel, Ronnie and couple of others did, which was simply to take a later entry and use your power for a clean undercut.

EDIT: You didn't have enough room? Your own replay says otherwise imo.

View attachment 316274

If you want to discuss this further, do it by pm, and (having watched the replays over again) we can put it in for a report if you prefer.

I'm sorry, but I have to chip in here.

Yes you can be grumpy all you want because at the end of the day, you lost time and Enzo didn't. Which seems unfair, I can understand that.

But when that's said I completely agree with Enzo's judgement here, calling it a racing incident.

Yes it's initially up to the passing car to make a safe pass, but that doesn't mean that the car getting overtaken has no responsibility of its own.
Just as Enzo could've probably taken a wider line, you could've lifted and taken a tighter line. Saying you're "Committed" to the corner, when you're after the apex and on full throttle, is bollocks.

I think being self-critical is alpha-omega, when it comes to racing. Even if something wasn't your fault, and all the blame is clearly on another driver, there's 99% of the time something you could've done differently to avoid the situation in the first place. And I think the incident right here is a pretty clear example of how it takes two to tango.

My thoughts on the situation, even if you didn't ask for them

 

[jayk]

@Chris Down (I think it was you. Otherwise it might have been @jayk, @GEO147 or @Medilloni) I'm so sorry for the incident at turn 4 (I think). First of all it was a very optimistic move and that is totally on me. That said, when I was trying to go on the inside, braking really late, probably too late, your car moved about 1.5m towards mine (looked to me like you were slipping on the curb under braking in the replay). I've tried to avoid contact but locked up and lost control. Hitting the green didn't help either. So once again, appologies for that very optimistic (aka stupid) move that turned out the worst way possible.

After all the comments about rude LMP behaviour, which I believe even caused drivers to leave, I want to appologize if there were any incidents caused by me. I gave my best to overtake / lap GT3 cars fair and square but maybe I missed a situation where a GT3 driver got into trouble because of me. If that was the case I appologize.

And then there were a few situations where GT3 drivers were appologizing to me for holding me up. Once I got stuck behind an overtaking of 2 GT cars and had to wait to squeeze through for example. No worries guys, the faster car is responsible to time, position and execute the overtake. As long as you don't change the lines when we are side by side, it's all on the LMP guys. It's really polite to say sorry but that's racing and it's the reason I like multiclass races so much. It's a completely different challenge. I've also seen guys leaving the track or even spinning because they've tried to give me room (makes me feel really bad to see someone spin in the rear view mirror). That is really well meant, too, but also not really necessary. Just do your thing and be predictable. And most of all have fun and enjoy the race.

Thanks @JoelK for organizing! Looking forward to the next race.

It wasn't me into turn 4 mate, i was hit in turn 11, someone did apologise. I didn't really make a fuss as I had an incling there was a car on my inside late into turn 11 but at that point i did think it would have backed out or not tried to over take, too late by the time i thought that, I should have just lifted and braked.

 

[HF2000]

I'm sorry, but I have to chip in here.

Yes you can be grumpy all you want because at the end of the day, you lost time and Enzo didn't. Which seems unfair, I can understand that.

But when that's said I completely agree with Enzo's judgement here, calling it a racing incident.

Yes it's initially up to the passing car to make a safe pass, but that doesn't mean that the car getting overtaken has no responsibility of its own.
Just as Enzo could've probably taken a wider line, you could've lifted and taken a tighter line. Saying you're "Committed" to the corner, when you're after the apex and on full throttle, is bollocks.

I think being self-critical is alpha-omega, when it comes to racing. Even if something wasn't your fault, and all the blame is clearly on another driver, there's 99% of the time something you could've done differently to avoid the situation in the first place. And I think the incident right here is a pretty clear example of how it takes two to tango.

My thoughts on the situation, even if you didn't ask for them

I'd like to give my thoughts too. There's a lot to say for both lines of opinions. But the conclusion is that if the rule leaves room for interpretation then every multiclass race will have similar discussions with different points of view. Do we want that (it's sometimes entertaining for a neutral observer) or not, that's the question.
As a GT3 driver it would make my life easier if I just have to concentrate on staying on the race line to be as predictable as possible. I also have some guilt feelings when I'm holding up LMP's when I stay on the raceline. So a part of me would want that but the other part says that it takes away a lot from what multiclass makes special. I don't think we should make it that rigorously. And it wasn't all that bad, I saw a lot of decent LMP behaviour when overtaking me. And we're all subject to this incidents. John lost a lot of time on that incident with Enzo but in the end he came very close to me because of two other incidents in which a LMP was the cause and what cost me a lot of time. So sometimes you win and sometimes ...

 

[Joakim Stensnæs]

I'd like to give my thoughts too. There's a lot to say for both lines of opinions. But the conclusion is that if the rule leaves room for interpretation then every multiclass race will have similar discussions with different points of view. Do we want that (it's sometimes entertaining for a neutral observer) or not, that's the question.
As a GT3 driver it would make my live easier if I just have to concentrate on staying on the race line to be as predictable as possible. I also have some guilt feelings when I'm holding up LMP's when I stay on the raceline. So a part of me would want that but the other part says that it takes away a lot from what multiclass makes special. I don't think we should make it that rigorously. And it wasn't all that bad, I saw a lot of decent LMP behaviour when overtaking me. And we're all subject to this incidents. John lost a lot of time on that incident with Enzo but in the end he came very close to me because of two other incidents in which a LMP was the cause and what cost me a lot of time. So sometimes you win and sometimes ...

True - It's a discussion that has no end.
But forever I think it's an important one, so that we can all hopefully learn something each time we come back from the race-track.

 

[jayk]

I think the GT3 car does have a responsibility. When i saw a LMP car coming up on me, depending where i was I'd take the corner and show it was mine with plenty of time, or I'd move my car over and then I'd know the LMP car was only going to go past on one side. I basically tried to make it simple and clear cut leaving out any ambiguity. The incident above I think was a racing incident, both could of done something to prevent the crash. Even in my incident, the LMP shouldn't have tried to squeeze it into Turn 11 late, but i should have backed out too.

 

[Enzo Fazzi]

So my teammate has my back while my dad disagrees.
Can't choose your family eh?

 

[GEO147]

I dont have a lot of experience in multi class but what I observed in some cases is an LMP driver initiating overtake maneuvers at the exact point in time that they had caught the GT3. Whether that was on a straight or mid hairpin turn it didnt matter it seemed, all that mattered was that they had caught the GT3 and that = overtake immediately.

I like Han wouldnt want stringent rules on it, as rules can start to take the fun out of things. But I dont understand the mindset of taking a very big risk overtaking a GT3 car when once the corner is completed they can just zip by so easily.

In summary some simple risk assessment and common sense is all thats needed, but then again you dont see that in every single class race either.

From my point of view I had one or two hairy moments with one guy in particular but they didnt end in wipeouts.

 

[HF2000]

So my teammate has my back while my dad disagrees.
Can't choose your family eh?

Raising kids never stops....

 

[pattikins]

I think the GT3 car does have a responsibility. When i saw a LMP car coming up on me, depending where i was I'd take the corner and show it was mine with plenty of time...

I guess the point of taking a defensive line against an LMP car is to prevent a risky pass. Is this John's mistake, not taking a wider line through the Pirelli corner? As I see it, John was sticking to the racing line, exactly as every other GT3 car on the track, so Enzo, as good as he is, should've been able to see that a pass on the outside wasn't on.

In general, I think it is unreasonable to expect the GT3 driver to have to anticipate if, when, and how an LMP car is going to make a pass. If you're saying the GT3 driver should change direction or speed, you're effectively saying that they should slow down. If that's the case I'll start driving an LMP car - nobody should want that

 

[jayk]

I guess the point of taking a defensive line against an LMP car is to prevent a risky pass. Is this John's mistake, not taking a wider line through the Pirelli corner? As I see it, John was sticking to the racing line, exactly as every other GT3 car on the track, so Enzo, as good as he is, should've been able to see that a pass on the outside wasn't on.

In general, I think it is unreasonable to expect the GT3 driver to have to anticipate if, when, and how an LMP car is going to make a pass. If you're saying the GT3 driver should change direction or speed, you're effectively saying that they should slow down. If that's the case I'll start driving an LMP car - nobody should want that

I'm not blaming anyone, but said both parties could of prevented that. If the LMP car has made the move then the GT car can just hold throttle whilst it goes by. NO GT driver wants to loose time but you loose more it there is a collision.

 

[JoelK]

After all we're gonna have some kind of incidents in these kind of races and that's just a fact we have to deal with, **** just happens and we carry on and try to improve. But this discussion is really good until it gets hostile and that has no place at RD. Multiclass racing goes always both ways, even though LMP's have to work around the GT's, there's always missjudgement's and that's part of it, which always makes it interesting, since you have to be laser-focused all race long, even if it appears that you're in no-mans land, that might change at any point of time. Sometime accidents go against you and sometimes you benefit from 'em.

 

[Giovanni Chiarotto]

First of all, thank you very much @JoelK for this event

I was in GT3 category and I can say I had absolutely no problem with LMP1 guys, in fact I had a lot of fun messing around with them. I just held my racing line, leaving to propotypes the burden to find a way to pass. Still I was keeping my eyes wide open to mantain situational awareness (for example side by side situations). No one tried dumb pass attempts on me, except for one, a pass on the last corner, for which I had to take evasive action.
I was so confident with multiclass because I had a multiclass championship in GT2 class some years ago, but actually if you're not used to it, it can be quite tricky.

Talking about my race, I was basically left alone in last place, this was also because I was nervous and consequently I was not driving clean, lapping slower than my real pace.
Then I started to get confident and run with my real pace, such a shame there were just 20 minutes left.
This was not due to LMP1s, as I said above I was very confident with them: actually, they kept me good company.
Probably this was because I've been away from races since a long time.

Honestly I had no clue about how far I was from the group: I was using realtime app of AC, but it shows gaps from drivers around you, and since I was always sorrounded by LMP1s, it was always showing gap from them, which it was useless for me.

I also hit a guy in a Mclaren during the final part of the race, he was standing still on the track, I didn't had enough fast reflexes to avoid him, sorry mate!

 

[HF2000]

First of all, thank you very much @JoelK for this event

I was in GT3 category and I can say I had absolutely no problem with LMP1 guys, in fact I had a lot of fun messing around with them. I just held my racing line, leaving to propotypes the burden to find a way to pass. Still I was keeping my eyes wide open to mantain situational awareness (for example side by side situations). No one tried dumb pass attempts on me, except for one, a pass on the last corner, for which I had to take evasive action.
I was so confident with multiclass because I had a multiclass championship in GT2 class some years ago, but actually if you're not used to it, it can be quite tricky.

Talking about my race, I was basically left alone in last place, this was also because I was nervous and consequently I was not driving clean, lapping slower than my real pace.
Then I started to get confident and run with my real pace, such a shame there were just 20 minutes left.
This was not due to LMP1s, as I said above I was very confident with them: actually, they kept me good company.
Probably this was because I've been away from races since a long time.

Honestly I had no clue about how far I was from the group: I was using realtime app of AC, but it shows gaps from drivers around you, and since I was always sorrounded by LMP1s, it was always showing gap from them, which it was useless for me.

I also hit a guy in a Mclaren during the final part of the race, he was standing still on the track, I didn't had enough fast reflexes to avoid him, sorry mate!

Glad to hear that you had a better experience this time. Hope to see you next time. With F9 you can see the standings based on start/finish so you can see the gap with the guy in front and the one behind.

 

[JoelK]

And just a shameless plug here, start signing up for next sunday and stop going on this one Let's have more to discuss after that one, even though there's no LMP's making things grazy