Mobile Driving/Flying Cockpit with Motion and Tactile ( Build )

RCHeliguy · Jul 26, 2021

I agree about the anti-submarine belt being necessary. For me it was the difference between feeling "something" and getting reliable usable feedback. There is a big difference.

I also felt like I was relearning how to brake based on what I was feeling and I could see how the absence of this after learning to use it would seriously throw me off.

The downsides:

It takes more effort to strap in as the belts are adjusted as tight as possible without hurting
If it failed mid-race that would be a serious issue.
It's one more piece of software to get started.

Currently I'm running the following:

Steam VR
VRS logger
Trading Paints
Crew Chief
iRacing
SimHub into 4 channels of tactile
NLRv3 software seat mover
True Drive Paddock
SimCommander

I'm also feeling more "worked out" after driving a while. I'm still trying to figure out why that is.

RCHeliguy · Jul 26, 2021

Jumping the shark here.

Have any of you looked at seat cooling systems?

It hasn't been much of an issue for me so far, but this seems like something that someone in the sim racing community would appreciate.

A quick search found this product that looks like it would work well with a variety of racing seats.

Air Cooled Driver System by Speed Seat Factory

Speed Seat Factory's Air-Cooled Driver System is a truly unique and portable, air-cooled seat insert for your back and legs. Using the latest patented technology we offer multiple options such as vented, air-cooled and adjustable lumber. All making the seated individual and making the driver one...

www.steeleracingproducts.com

anton_Chez · Jul 26, 2021

The real V8 Supercars series uses that seat cooling in conjunction with a cool suit, cool liquid pumped via either a dry ice box or more recently electronically controlled components through a vest that the driver wears. It gets to like 60C in the cockpit in those things, definitely don't want a cool suit failure in the middle of a race, but some drivers have had to deal with exactly that. I think for sim racing it might be slightly overkill, but I guess that's what we do as sim racers.

RCHeliguy · Jul 26, 2021

anton_Chez said:
The real V8 Supercars series uses that seat cooling in conjunction with a cool suit, cool liquid pumped via either a dry ice box or more recently electronically controlled components through a vest that the driver wears. It gets to like 60C in the cockpit in those things, definitely don't want a cool suit failure in the middle of a race, but some drivers have had to deal with exactly that. I think for sim racing it might be slightly overkill, but I guess that's what we do as sim racers.

Very cool (literally), but it does seem a bit overkill for sim use.

I know some people don't have the luxury of air conditioning where they sim and some parts of the country are seeing heat higher then they ever had before so there are people who don't have central AC and realistically haven't needed it until recently.

Still I would hope that just having adequate air flow would work for most people.

stigs2cousin · Jul 26, 2021

Street car seats can be had with forced ventilation.
The Recaro Sportster CS I have on my rig has two 12v fans that pull air away from my butt and back. (cloth covering.)
While using it in my street car e46 I used to call it the "fart extraction system"

but it works quite well for cooling.

That combined with a cheap fan in front of my pedal deck gets me through the summer.

On reclineable sears it might be possible to cut the necessary channels into the foam and fabricate the fan mounts, but I think it would be easier to source a used car seat with OEM ventilation. At least in german cars middle class and up they are not that rare.

Another possibilty was tried by Sean Cole (Youtube Sim Pit) who built a grassroots
cool vest.
If it was me I`d apply the principle to the seat with the tubes hidden in the seat padding.

MFG Carsten

RCHeliguy · Jul 27, 2021

I fit into my seat snuggly. It's comfortable, but it doesn't appear that there is anywhere for air to flow within the constraints of the seat.

Realistically that means that without a closed cooling system with tubes to remove heat integrated into the cushions, the likelihood of having something that works well is pretty low.

So my gut reaction is to shelve this. I don't see a good course of action to design something without prohibitive expense. The typical fans people use to blow air at them are likely the best course of action.

Edit: I should probably reiterate that staying cool isn't an issue for me. My rig is in an airconditioned room in the basement so it stays cool. I have a single center cooling fan that keeps my VR headset from fogging up and helps keep me cool. If for some reason it's hot ( my wife opened the door to the screen room and left it open ), I have a large ceiling fan directly overhead.

metalnwood · Jul 27, 2021

I use two blowers and they keep you cool. Even in my small room which can get warm they can move the air fast enough that even warm air hitting you fast enough cools you. You can't get away from a bit of a sweaty arse after a while though

Having said that I am cool and dont even notice until I get up at end of a long session.

I found two cons of them, neither a big issue for me. One is that onmy rig they needed some isolation as the high freq vibration could be felt in the rim. You may or may not care about it. My solution was to take them off the rig and use clear 4" ducting . This was better as I put a straightener on the end and mounted them to the rig with something I could change where they point. They kind of pvc ducting you would use with a dust extractor is better than the light weight stuff because it maintains the inside diameter and doesnt rattle with the velocity of the air.

Second, depending on how fast you run them they can be loud. The ducting has certainly changed the noise by moving them further away and proving more of a white noise primarily from the ducting noise.

There was a third.... If you run them pointing at your face then you cant use a mic with voice activated. You will need push to talk and probably need something to remove background noise. I ended up with an external directional mike. It's amazing. fans can be blowing tons and it only picks up my voice, still using voice activation on discord for league racing.

RCHeliguy · Jul 27, 2021

You can really see the flex in my seat and how the NLRv3 doesn't hold position well when parked.

The last two minutes of the video show a close up from the side and then directly overhead looking down.

The good news is that I don't see the G-Belt moving around on my fiberglass seat or over flexing the seat.

Elaphe · Jul 28, 2021

Is that drink system you have for sucking or did you install some pump like on race cars?

RCHeliguy · Jul 28, 2021

Elaphe said:
Is that drink system you have for sucking or did you install some pump like on race cars?

It's a Camelbak bite tube like I have in my backpacks, except it connects to a Camelbak 1 liter bottle.
No pump.

I used these:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07HGR3S4C

Amazon.com: CamelBak Eddy Hands-Free Adapter, OneSize, Blue: Sports & Outdoors

www.amazon.com

Amazon.com : Ultraspire Magnetic Vest Clip for Hydration Reservoir Tube : Sports & Outdoors

www.amazon.com

Amazon.com: Hydration Pack Drink Tube Lanyard Clip (Black) : Sports & Outdoors

www.amazon.com

And 3D printed this camelbak 1 liter bottle holder.

Cup Holder ( Sim Racing God ) by RCHeliGuy

This has a bit of attitude. I'm not sure I could even using this ironically for myself, but for the serious sim racers among you this may be more appropriate. This has the same dimensions as my other 32 oz Camelbak cup holder. It has 8mm bolt holes 40mm apart for a profile sim rig. Print...

www.thingiverse.com

anton_Chez · Jul 28, 2021

Nice vid mate, thanks for sharing!

blekenbleu · Jul 28, 2021

RCHeliguy said:
The last two minutes of the video show a close up from the side and then directly overhead looking down

Excellent! Even if Barry eventually gets around to reviewing it, I doubt his video could be appreciably more informative.
While more robust, the G-Belt does not appear to deliver stronger feedback than do DIY 35kg.cm RDS3235 servos,

RCHeliguy · Jul 28, 2021

blekenbleu said:
Excellent! Even if Barry eventually gets around to reviewing it, I doubt his video could be appreciably more informative.
While more robust, the G-Belt does not appear to deliver stronger feedback than do DIY 35kg.cm RDS3235 servos,

I believe the G-Belt uses 40kg/cm servos so they are likely of similar strength, but I consider that an oversimplification when comparing this against a DIY seatbelt tensioner.

What's hard to quantify are the differences in design and software, and as you said robustness. I've had zero EMI issues as well.

I'm curious if the advantage of using two arms vs. spooling on rollers was mostly for ease of installation or for other advantages. I was able to just pull my seatbelt through the unit and secure the other end and I was done. If so that's still a nice feature. I didn't need to butcher my harness.

The SimCommander software supports a lot of different effects and they use a custom PCB for the actuator controllers. There is no way to look at that video and gauge how well it responded to the game telemetry but only approximately how hard it's pulling. One of my concerns about going DIY was getting the same level of immersion and detail. It's one thing to have something that has similar power. It's quite another to do the math and testing to work out how it should work. I tend to think the effort that went into engineering this and then dialing it in, testing and beta testing and finally releasing it delivers a system that feels better than something I could put together.

Please don't take this as an attack on your DIY solution! For me personally, I look at the time and effort it takes to design and build a quality product and don't think I could ever conceivably put in the time necessary to get the results they've gotten.

This is a lot different than designing and building a button box. All the buttons and switches have a simple known operation and I used a simple button box board so that it was all just plug and chug to work.

blekenbleu · Jul 28, 2021

RCHeliguy said:
I'm curious if the advantage of using two arms vs. spooling on rollers was mostly for ease of installation or for other advantages.

Just-noticeable-tension-increment testing revealed non-linearity in perception vs belt length changes,
which nonlinearity can be implemented in software, but arm nonlinearity helps provide it,
while also increasing mechanical advantage with increasing tension.

Having burned out one servo and sorted another with a lost motion defect, I appreciate benefits of a turnkey solution.

RCHeliguy said:
I've had zero EMI issues as well.

EMI issues were avoided by supercaps directly soldered to servo motor power leads.

RCHeliguy said:
It's quite another to do the math and testing to work out how it should work.

Past experience helps; your CAD and 3D printing seem more daunting to me.

RCHeliguy said:
SimCommander software supports a lot of different effects

Windows 10 stability issues with Sim Commander (for AccuForce) + SimHub + Content Manager + Assetto Corsa + Windows Mixed Reality + SteamVR was one motivation for implementing harness tensioning in SimHub.

RCHeliguy · Jul 28, 2021

We all do what we consider prudent based on our experiences and circumstances and I think we have both explained why we choose our respective solutions. All is good. Moving on

HoiHman · Jul 28, 2021

Great video of the G-Belt @RCHeliguy

I'm surprised it's so much quieter than my GS-5. From the looks of it the G-Belt does seem to give a very convincing pull.

There quite some advantages to a turn key product and i understand why you choose this solution
- Much less time needed for completing the product
- Manufacturer support
- Warranty !!
- A good software package to drive it
- Safety!!
- A genuine finished product look
- Well thought out concept

These are all very good reasons and it think the G- Belt is an excellent product. But in terms of immersion, available effects, reaction speeds or even tuning there are no real advantages above a good DIY solution.

The DIY solution has
- No (safe) limits
- Easier expanding possibilities to a 4-way belt
- Opportunity for self repair
- Do/make/adjust things that manufacturers, don't allow you ( both in hardware and software)

Either way it's impossible to make a bad choice between the two imho. The "direct on the body" forces are awesome and they still amaze me after using the belt tensioner and GS-5 combo for over 2 years.

Now you have had a taste of the direct on body forces, i'm pretty sure a GS-5 will find a way to your home somehow in the foreseeable future

RCHeliguy · Jul 28, 2021

HoiHman said:
Now you have had a taste of the direct on body forces, i'm pretty sure a GS-5 will find a way to your home somehow in the foreseeable future

I think I've already said as much somewhere.

After seeing how well the G-Belt works I could see how it basically takes the place of having Surge on a motion rig and the G-Seat takes the place of traction loss and adds other effects. So at that point I could see going to a simple 4 post motion system, ditch the NLRv3 and solidly mount a G-Seat which would allow me to upgrade to a stronger brake like the Ultimate+.

But I need more room to do that. I thought I had maxed my current system out. With the G-Belt, I believe I am maxed out until I have more room, since the NLRv3 will not support a G-Seat. I'm also hoping that they can tune the G-Seat to be quieter like the G-Belt is in a future version.

Tom_Hampton · Jul 29, 2021

Its been a while since I checked in.

Nice upgrade. Note that the 2" belts are only race-legal with a HANS on. Otherwise 3" belts are required. So, your skinny belts were never meant to apply forces to your flesh and bone directly---only to a composite shell sitting on your shoulders. Time to make yourself a HANS.

There are several styles of 6-pt harnesses. I use a formula style 6pt. These fit more like a climbing harness with the sub-belts wrapping under your thighs and behind your buttocks to the same attachment points as the waist belt. I find them much more comfortable in real life---especially in an impact.

I also run a coolsuit in the real car. they are VERY effective even in 130F cockpit, with a firesuit. 6 lbs of Ice is good for about an hour in those conditions.

You can get a "donjoy iceman" off of ebay for about $50, and a real coolshirt, or diy one. I made my first cooler from a bilge pump and a small cooler. But, it was destroyed in a wreck. I run a donjoy now. The dry-break connectors are the same on both. I've also made my own shirt with tubing sewed to a shirt. But, evenentually I bought a real coolshirt. If you make your own shirt the dry-break connectors are available off of McMaster-Carr.

RCHeliguy · Jul 29, 2021

@Tom_Hampton Hell Yeah!! HANS all the way in my sim rig! LOL!

If I ever see someone using one of these on a sim rig that isn't a fully professional racing rig, I may question their sanity.... Same goes for the fire suit and ice or dry ice cooling system!

That brings up the very controversial topic of what is going too far in a sim rig. I'm not sure there is any hard line and it's entirely a personal preference issue.

I'm finding that there is more and more overhead involved to increase immersion.

Right now I have the following:

Tactile SimHub: Multiple profiles within each title. I find I need to adjust the engine idle generally by engine size and wheel slide with the amount of traction a car has.

NLRv3: Profile per title sometime tweaked for a specific track.

SC2 Pro True Drive Paddock: Profiles per title and sometimes per car type.
Very happy with Cloud profiles!!!!

SimCommander: G-Belt has profiles for each title. Cloud adjustments for car and track so there is no clipping which is nice.

The HE has different profiles for the pedals so I can tweak them for different weather conditions and different cars.

On top of that getting into the rig with snug 5 point belts takes more time and effort.

My VR system is pretty solid so that hasn't been much of an issue for me, but for others this is yet another thing that needs tweaking.

It can get to the point where the efforts to achieve immersion are overwhelming.

anton_Chez · Jul 29, 2021

I recommend trying the harness just with the 2 shoulder straps and the under the seat one. There really is no need for the lap belts when you're only concerned with the shoulder straps doing the work from the G-Belt. I have been running it like that and it's much less faff around. My lap belts are very hard to adjust the length on (it's a fakey and while it doesn't come loose like my old fakey, I have to leave it at the tightest fit for it to be effective and it's hard to put on without the slack), and now I only need to have the under the seat strap set to the one length, clip in the two shoulder harnesses, tighten down and away we go.