Hoping this is not a sign of things to come

[Kevin Watts]

Like most other virtual racers I eagerly awaited the release of Assetto Corsa and purchased it the day it was released. I was stunned by how polished it was as an alpha/beta/early access game and enjoyed not only the superb visuals but the crisp believable handling of the cars as I threw them around the laser scanned tracks. As each week went by I looked forward to the next batch of fortnightly content and was happy to see each new car and track was crafted as well as the last. Not even the silly bickering on the Steam forums over whose game was better could dull my enthusiasm or the banal criticism’s by the console gamers because you couldn’t ‘pimp’ your car with gaudy body-kits like Forza Motorsport or that the game didn’t already have 1000 cars like Gran Turismo. Each new announcement via their web-site or Facebook page brought more excitement – a new manufacturer license, a laser scanned Nordschleife – the future looks bright…

Then it happened. The first quick and dirty conversion quite literally ripped from another game. News spread and this track suddenly became the hot topic, the ‘must have’ despite it being taken warts-and-all from a game released nearly 10 years ago. Rather than herald this new ‘mod’ it left me despairing for the racing sim community. While many virtual racers and racing simulation sites rightly shunned discussion of this ‘rip’ there were many more making asinine excuses for the author essentially taking this work without permission and grafting it into a new sim. Theft is theft no matter if you ‘get away with it’ or not or even that you give it away freely. It reminded me of rFactor and how when it was released it showed so much promise. For months we saw 3d meshes being shown by talented mod makers working their magic on new cars and tracks made from scratch.

It all seemed so exciting and then conversion tools reared their ugly heads. All of a sudden sites like rFactor Central were awash with poorly ripped work from Grand Prix Legends, Geoff Crammonds Grand Prix 4 among others. Far from pushing the genre forward it felt like we were now going backwards. The same racers who argued over the radius of a hairpin in Simbin’s rendition of Macau were suddenly silent when rFactor became awash with low poly conversions of 10 year old games complete with poorly defined racing surfaces, low resolution textures and cardboard cut-out tree’s and track side objects which screamed ‘FAKE’ as you sped past them. Questionably legal content appeared and then disappeared from the net as lawyers and mod makers played cat and mouse.

Is this really where we want to go with Assetto Corsa? - A step backwards porting generations old content complete with all their imperfections into a next gen simulation? There was a ‘gold rush’ in rFactor when the conversion tools appeared to be ‘the first’ to bring a popular track to rFactor, be it Spa or Brands Hatch for example so why would someone spend time carefully building a track from scratch when others are just ripping it from another game and fudging it into this new sim. Have our expectations really been lowered so far that we’d accept the grave robbing zombification of old content like this?

 

[Simon Roberts]

AC isn't the first sim to feature laser scanned tracks. I certainly have never seen rips of iRacing tracks for example...?

I saw a few a while ago for nKP.

 

[RaceNut]

There is always a gray area when it comes to what is legal vs. what one can actually do. Most people probably speed while driving on a regular basis. Where I live, we know that we can go 5mph over the posted limit without fear of being punished. If we go beyond 10mph over, then we know we are pushing the limit. The fine structure tells us that as well as experience.

It seems that the internet has no real code of ethics yet, no clearly defined borders or structure to tell people when they are stepping over the line of right & wrong. In real life, that has to be instilled in us from a young age. Then there are cultural differences and interpretations to overcome. If there would ever be some sort of code - how will the world ever agree on how the limits are to be defined?

 

[Dazmaniac]

Id look at it like this, even if it costs you £35 then it's a bargain, heck! If you go out for a meal you are looking at £60 and that lasts what, 2.5 hours?! The amount of content you will get in the DLC will last for years worth of enjoyment.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking the fact that Kunos are charging for DLC, more power to their elbow for doing so IMO. I'll be in line with all the others once pre-orders are available.

I just wondered if Chris had seen a price mentioned somewhere, as I hadn't, and he was relating it to a few beers, which led me to think he was meaning around a tenner or so.

 

[Michael Hornbuckle]

No price has been mentioned other than pre-ordering will save you half.....I doubt the DLC would cost as much as the game but if it did half would be $20-$25...not bad for a laser scanned Nords and 10 cars...and it could be half of that.
In iracing you would be looking at close to $200 so I'm sure it will be a bargain compared to that no matter what.

 

[Dazmaniac]

No price has been mentioned other than pre-ordering will save you half.....I doubt the DLC would cost as much as the game but if it did half would be $20-$25...not bad for a laser scanned Nords and 10 cars...and it could be half of that.
In iracing you would be looking at close to $200 so I'm sure it will be a bargain compared to that no matter what.

I doubt iRacing would be near $200 for 1 track and 10 cars (even if it is Green Hell). Track = $14.95 and 10 cars at $11.95, so your looking at just under $135. Even if they were all $14.95 you would be looking at under $165.

Also, with the iRacing bulk purchase discount, I reckon if they put out a pack like the AC Dream DLC, you would still get a reasonable deduction from the full cost price, which would be even more if you were a member of the 100% club.

But I get where you going, in that the AC pack would be a damn site cheaper than a comparable iRacing pack.

 

[Richard Eriksson]

Real modders will of course shy away from this. This is nothing but theft. If we allow this, then by all means remove the checks for valid versions of the sim and the like in your leagues. It would be ok to steal and tamper with all content including exes then, right?

To those bringing up the skinning and car model issues, as a defence for this, it is not the same thing exactly. It is a creation from scratch, with efforts made by the creator. It is shady business somewhat but still ok (unless content owners ask for it to be removed).

Ripping content is however stealing with no artistic input at all. Also it is dangerous as it is stealing from competitors in the same industry, which can bring grief to the whole community.

 

[Tobias Kluge]

To those bringing up the skinning and car model issues, as a defence for this, it is not the same thing exactly. It is a creation from scratch, with efforts made by the creator. It is shady business somewhat but still ok (unless content owners ask for it to be removed).

Skinning and even using the downloadable templates isn't illegal at all, as long as you don't make any profit with those liveries.
I can go to a T-shirt print shop and make it full of trademarks, nothing will ever happen, there is no copyright to claim.
If I try to sell them successfully, then I will may have a problem.

 

[zuikki1]

Really, why is this the truth? Is it so hard for people to simply not touch stuff that isn't theirs?

I think you got me little bit wrong . Me and most of us hope the best quality scratch made tracks off course just like you ( and I believe or am almost sure that so does the one who made this so much talked conversion ). But if you make easy modding , there is no question there is going to be conversions. thats why I said thats the simple thruth becouse it is like that. when ever you give even a slight possibility to bend the laws there is someone who is going to do that. One way to keep count on quality tracks only, is to have "official" database for example where only quality , scratch made tracks are taken.

 

[Stereo]

On the physics side of car modding, it's definitely possible to write your own without knowing how to break Kunos's encryption. You just need to know what files to put in the right folders; which is presumably the information their modding tools will provide. Compressing it into data.acd makes it easier to verify that you have the same file version as everyone else, so maybe that's the last step.

Aside from skins, which obviously aren't encrypted, it's possible there's a way to include unencrypted models in the game... I don't know where or what format it would expect though. I could wait for Kunos or I could use all this spare time I have to work it out myself... the longer the wait, the more likely I am to take it into my own hands.

[edit] geez, got merged with some thread while I was writing. Sorry if I'm out of place now; I only read the first 3 pages.

 

[Ole Marius Myrvold]

Guess Square Enix doesnt care either.

As I've stated in some places the last two days. To even get a hold of anyone in Square Enix that knows that RBR is in their portfolio is a quite hard job

Good luck to him, the game is was and still is dead, i am sure if anything his game got some publicity, a thing its not had in ages, and might have even made a few sales out of this whole thing

He is going to lose in court the studio is no more, they did not lose sales because of this, you have no idea who this guy is or what if anything he worked on, or it could be a complete troll.

The game do get plenty of publicity multiple times each year, certainly helps with people like Kubica driving as well
The court, would not care about loss of sales, but the breach of laws

So think this conversion more as a test. Thats the reason I bought assetto, as I want to make track mods to it. From the scratch one day..
STTF - Jukka from SavoStageTeam Finland , RBR modding croup..

Really hope to see one or more of your stages in AC in the future (if there is a suitable car for rallying) - as the stages are an absolute joy to drive!

What about simracing websites placing a ban on the uploading of conversion tracks, and as soon as one is uploaded it gets deleted immediately?

Atleast that way they've done something on their part to help eradicate it.

The problem with this, is pretty simple. To have a community, as big as RD, you need visitors, clicks, activity. You have seen the huge activity regarding this - think about how the sites that do have the stage are seeing an influx in visitors and clicks. The ones who take a firm standing on this struggle. The ones who give a big fat F in laws, wins.

Also why Virtualr.net is sharing Kegetys conversion of Joux Plane and others dont? and i guess no one has a problem with it, since the news+download link is still there.

See over

 

[DewCrew88]

I doubt iRacing would be near $200 for 1 track and 10 cars (even if it is Green Hell). Track = $14.95 and 10 cars at $11.95, so your looking at just under $135. Even if they were all $14.95 you would be looking at under $165.

Also, with the iRacing bulk purchase discount, I reckon if they put out a pack like the AC Dream DLC, you would still get a reasonable deduction from the full cost price, which would be even more if you were a member of the 100% club.

But I get where you going, in that the AC pack would be a damn site cheaper than a comparable iRacing pack.

10 cars alone would be close to $150 minimum on iR

 

[Austin Ogonoski]

>make game incredibly easy to mod
>upset when conversions appear

Man, it's been going on since the original Need for Speed Hot Pursuit in 1998.

If you really want to give credit where credit is due, include a disc check.

I straight up don't care for the copyright/IP laws that arise when converting track A from Sim B to Sim C because it's the nature of PC gaming and it's basically one of the main reasons as to why you bother to get involved in PC gaming in the first place. Everyone and their dog knows that AC will thrive on converted content for a certain period of time, regardless of where it's from. My hope is that proper steps are taken to ensure that what IS converted, is done well and fits naturally into the catalog of content.

The RBR stage, Joux Plane, was done very nicely aside from scoring issues that are due to a lack of modding tools available. Had the release been given the thumbs up by the proper people, you'd ALL be praising it. It is a great layout from a great sim, made even better by the advances in technology AC has made.

On the other hand, when vanilla GPL and NR2003 conversions started showing up in rFactor, they were often hastily done and at times looked no better than the source itself. Sometimes you'd get a real bad batch of tracks made for a private league and there'd be fatal flaws in the AIW or track geometry that prevented you from even being able to complete a single lap unless you hunted for a fix on some site where every link pointed to megaupload. This is what a lot of people would like to avoid, especially with a sim of AC's caliber.

And then you have what I'd call "wasted assets." Beautiful car models and/or tracks that appeared in the NFS Shift series, a game internally sabotaged TWICE. Should we really just let all those beautiful models rot in a wasteland of awful physics, input lag, and cinematic remixes of angst-ridden rock music? Heck no! Get it into AC! Bathurst, Enna Pergusa, Dubai...etc... Why would you let that go to waste?

And this can be said about many racing games where conversion is possible. The original Grid had some phenomenal street circuits that were again lost to arcade physics. Same goes for DiRT 2.

I cannot wait for Macau, San Francisco, and Dundrod that will be taken from Race 07, Grid, and GPL. I cannot wait for classic American muscle cars that will be no doubt ported from Shift 2. While many of you will cry foul, at the end of the day I'd like to drive more than just Lotuses around obscure European tracks.

 

[Richard Eriksson]

I straight up don't care for the copyright/IP laws that arise when converting track A from Sim B to Sim C because it's the nature of PC gaming and it's basically one of the main reasons as to why you bother to get involved in PC gaming in the first place. Everyone and their dog knows that AC will thrive on converted content for a certain period of time, regardless of where it's from. My hope is that proper steps are taken to ensure that what IS converted, is done well and fits naturally into the catalog of content.
.

No. Just no. Having access to stolen work and intellectual properties, is not a reason to chose PC as a platform. It is the same as those who say, "the pc also has piratebay for games, yo!"

It is not a benefit, it is in fact the very things that give you insulting DRM schemes or in worst cases a move to consoles only, just to protect the assets.

If you are a developer, and you have given the community a proper sim, despite the market incentives not to do so, and managed to actually convince a publisher to release it after years of hard labor... Imagine the feeling when your work is 2 click converted to be run in a competitors title with illegal tools.

And then figure the publishers reaction when the sim itself is found on pirate sites, for all to grab, provided by the same kind of people as the content rippers.

Curtains. End. Next sim is no sim, it becomes locked down massmarket toy game for consoles.


The real reason pc should be your platform of choice for entertainment is the possibility to do stuff even the so called "new" consoles of now can not do. For instance, sim style gaming such as ARMA or DCS or racing sims would easily kill even the new console offers.

The real simulation and possibilities are only available due to the fact that the pc holds an immense performance advantage.

A three to four year old gaming pc is still immensely more powerful than XBox One or PS4.

That's the real reasons. Power, more mature crowd, specialized genres of entertainment such as proper racing and flight sims due to lower cost of entry for developers.

 

[Fabrizio Corona]

While many of you will cry foul, at the end of the day I'd like to drive more than just Lotuses around obscure European tracks.

Is there a bigger force stopping you from choosing other cars and tracks than Lotuses and obscure European tracks ? I don't get it. I'm all in for modding but that was lame.

AC has got some really nice and unique cars that all feel different from each other, both racing and street vehicles and for the tracks i prefer the quality of laser-scanning over quantity. Since when Imola, Monza, Mugello, Silverstone and Spa are obscure european tracks ?

 

[Austin Ogonoski]

Is there a bigger force stopping you from choosing other cars and tracks than Lotuses and obscure European tracks ? I don't get it. I'm all in for modding but that was lame.

AC car roster:
>many Lotuses, most of them slight variations of one another
>five Ferrari's
>six BMW's
>a handful of specialty cars

AC track roster:
>several european road courses

The biggest, and possibly ONLY downfall of AC is the focus on euro-centric content.

 

[Richard Eriksson]

AC car roster:
>many Lotuses, most of them slight variations of one another
>five Ferrari's
>six BMW's
>a handful of specialty cars

AC track roster:
>several european road courses

The biggest, and possibly ONLY downfall of AC is the focus on euro-centric content.

Well... That sounds good to me

What are you interested in seeing? American tracks? Ovals?

The thing is, europe is still full of great racetracks.

What i would really like is for someone to look to Asia though. Japan has a bunch of fantastic, smaller, venues.

 

[Ho3n3r]

AC car roster:
>many Lotuses, most of them slight variations of one another
>five Ferrari's
>six BMW's
>a handful of specialty cars

AC track roster:
>several european road courses

The biggest, and possibly ONLY downfall of AC is the focus on euro-centric content.

So I'm guessing you're not playing Game Stock Car either because it's too Brazilian-centric

No matter how you justify it, it's still illegal.

 

[Fabrizio Corona]

AC car roster:

Assetto Corsa covers almost everything in terms of cars. Both street and racing. Both vintage and modern.There isn't a focus on European content(what's the problem with that, by the way?), it is a necessity, they are a small team who need to move to the actual tracks and laser scan them. The closer, the easier and cheaper. It's not rocket science.

You forgot both Mercedes and Mclaren. 7 BMW's, 6 Ferrari's(and what Ferrari's), etc., take a look for yourself.

http://www.assettocorsa.net/officially-licensed-cars/

There is NOTHING in the sim world that comes even close to this for 35€. Others only dream about the 599XX and LaFerrari.

 

[Baldrick]

Skinning and even using the downloadable templates isn't illegal at all, as long as you don't make any profit with those liveries.
I can go to a T-shirt print shop and make it full of trademarks, nothing will ever happen, there is no copyright to claim.
If I try to sell them successfully, then I will may have a problem.

Trademark law is not limited to selling products with trademark infringements. It is whether it causes confusion to the public over the source and the damage that can do to the owner of the trademark which can include the implied endorsement of a product by the trademark owners.

In most cases with sim racing that isn't worth bothering with but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen - e.g. if a car manufacturer felt that rival games to the ones they do endorse and have license agreements were having a negative impact on their marketing strategy with games depicting their brands.

 

[Guybrush Threepwood]

This might have already been said, but do you realise when a modder creates a licenced product and gives it away for free it is also theft of the copyright holders branding, just that the modder can get away with it under most laws because they are not charging for the content?

I assume anyone who does not agree with people downloading Joux Plane has never and will never download any mod replicating a real life car, brand, track ,etc. without the expressed permission of the holder.

No, thought not.