Force India 2017 Drivers: Spirited or Dangerous?

[dctoe]

I find some of the opinions interesting, considering the way that some people in Sim Racing will threaten your family if you even get close to them on track. LOL!

But there is a point here that is being missed. The Team. These two individuals are racing for a Team; a Team that has given them orders not to fight with each other. It appears that this order has gone ignored. The only place I ever thought this was supposed to be acceptable was in NASCAR. (I love NASCAR by the way).

But more importantly, if the Team Principal gives you THAT type of order; you follow it. Cars and parts are expensive. Safety is important. Team reputation is on the line. Otherwise you run the risk of being called "Farce India"; as a clever person put it above. And you can't win or podium when YOUR drivers are fighting between themselves. There are a lot of people who would appreciate the chance.

I would personally be looking for 2 new drivers.

 

[Tobiman]

Ocon should have backed out of the first altercation because they would be going three wide into Eau rouge. It's plain common sense. Same issue with Verstappen. You can't faint ignorance just because there's a gap.

The second clash was on both sides imo. Perez was clearly aggressive in protecting the position. You can debate all day whether Perez should have given him enough room but If Ocon was a smart driver, he would leave the passing until the Kemmel straight. Instead, he decided to force the issue. Let me pass or I'll ruin both our races. This is the attitude on both sides with Ocon taking the bulk of the blame from me for Baku and Spa.

 

[Leonardo Chaves]

I don't know what Perez is thinking, does he expect a seat at a big team with this attitude? All i'm seeing is that he fights his team mate 5 times as hard and 5 times as nasty as he fights anyone else, back in Canada after doing his best to be a road block to Ocon, he didn't even bother to defend against Vettel.
When you are locked in a Hamilton-Rosberg situation that's at least understandable, but for a mid grid team that's crazy.
Perez wasn't super highly rated when he teamed up with Hulkenberg, his unsuccesful year at Mclaren had hurt his stock and Hulk was generally seen as the better prospect, 3 years after that this changed completely, Perez was the better driver and one of the guys in line for a Ferrari drive.

I guess with Ocon we see a change in situation, from where Perez was expected to lose to Hulk (but was winning), and Ocon where he is expected to beat his rookie team mate but is feeling the heat from his challenge and behaving like an idiot.

Everyone saying just wait for the DRS zone are missing the fact that Perez was in DRS range of Massa, Ocon attacked when he had the advantage, waiting wouldn't have helped because both cars would have DRS.

If you wanna see how pro drivers behave in that part of the track google Webber-Alonso Eau Rouge.

No sharing of the blame please, just because one driver tries daring move doesn't give you the right to squeeze him against the wall, one driver did something against the rules the other didn't, pretty clear cut.

 

[Angelo dos Santos]

True is, Ocon after what happened at Montreal will not lift while fighting Perez. Even if this means take both cars out.
This is a imature course of action and is costing the team a lot.
Yeah, Perez was responsible to start this...but at Montreal he defended his position in a correct way, technically speaking.
After that Ocon puts Perez in the wall in Baku, and now this horrible display at Spa. Where both of them should take responsability. Ocon on the first one, specially. Second one was a tipical case of both drivers unwilling to back off despite the imminet accident.

Both of them needs some sort of penalization, or a more controlled aproach, so to speak.

But on my view, Ocon is forcing this issue a bit too far.

 

[Vitor M Sousa]

People saying Ocon should have lifted on the start should watch the replay and see that if he lifted he would have been rammed by a Haas that was in his gearbox. Martin Brundle said the same in the Broadcast. He couldn't do anything at that point.

 

[williamho]

Just a curious thought, isn't getting points for the team a bigger priority? I mean having both drivers consistently being in the top 10 will be much more useful for not only the constructor's championship, but career prospects for the drivers.

 

[Kaiserkoenig]

I think both incidents of the two Force India in Spa were Racing incidents. The first, I don't need to comment on that one. The second, I think as Team members Perez should have left space to his teammate, but he was in the right to close the line. Ocon only had to lift the throttle, because he was to far away.
But as I said, they are both racing for the same team and should be much more carefully racing each other.

 

[Leonardo Chaves]

All these "both guys fault", is missing the point that Perez defense is illegal, dangerous and dirty.
Ocon attempting to overtake into Eau Rouge is daring, Perez defense is a scumbag move clean cut, how is that both drivers fault?
Why is Perez dirty driving being relativized?

 

[LeSunTzu]

I don't know what Perez is thinking, does he expect a seat at a big team with this attitude? All i'm seeing is that he fights his team mate 5 times as hard and 5 times as nasty as he fights anyone else, back in Canada after doing his best to be a road block to Ocon, he didn't even bother to defend against Vettel.
When you are locked in a Hamilton-Rosberg situation that's at least understandable, but for a mid grid team that's crazy.
Perez wasn't super highly rated when he teamed up with Hulkenberg, his unsuccesful year at Mclaren had hurt his stock and Hulk was generally seem as the better prospect, 3 years after that this changed completely, Perez was the better driver and one of the guys in line for a Ferrari drive.

I guess with Ocon we see a change in situation, from where Perez was expected to lose to Hulk (but was winning), and Ocon where he is expected to beat his rookie team mate but is feeling the heat from his challenge and behaving like an idiot.

Everyone saying just wait for the DRS zone are missing the fact that Perez was in DRS range of Massa, Ocon attacked when he had the advantage, waiting wouldn't have helped because both cars would have DRS.

If you wanna see how pro drivers behave in that part of the track google Webber-Alonso Eau Rouge.

No sharing of the blame please, just because one driver tries daring move doesn't give you the right to squeeze him against the wall, one driver did something against the rules the other didn't, pretty clear cut.

Pérez has been consistently in front of Ocon before it became messy. Things have changed since Ocon played it hard in Baku. I understand where he comes from (Pérez not being sports at all at Montreal), but he has an equal part in the incidents. His out-of-track communication confirms that as well.

And why shouldn't they have their battle like Hamilton and Rosberg last year? The only reason why it should stop is the costs to Force India. Except if you're in Force India shoes, I see no reason to complain for watching a big battle in addition to the Hamilton-Vettel title fight.

 

[Leonardo Chaves]

I think as Team members Perez should have left space to his teammate, but he was in the right to close the line.

No he isn't, you aren't allowed to block a driver once he puts a significant part of his car alongside you, and the FW(which obviously was there) counts as a significant part.

I quote:
sporting regulation 20.4.

20.4 Any driver defending his position on a straight, and before any braking area, may use the full width of the track during his first move, provided no significant portion of the car attempting to pass is alongside his. For the avoidance of doubt, if any part of the front wing of the car attempting to pass is alongside the rear wheel of the car in front this will be deemed to be a 'significant portion'.

Perez did an illegal move you can stop relativizing.

Pérez has been consistently in front of Ocon before it became messy. Things have changed since Ocon played it hard in Baku. I understand where he comes from (Pérez not being sports at all at Montreal), but he has an equal part in the incidents. His out-of-track communication confirms that as well.

And why shouldn't they have their battle like Hamilton and Rosberg last year? The only reason why it should stop is the costs to Force India. Except if you're in Force India shoes, I see no reason to complain for watching a big battle in addition to the Hamilton-Vettel title fight.

I agree, the only problem is Perez is going dirty all of a sudden, that wasn't a battle that was a scumbag move, if they went Eau Rouge side by side, tense for the team, but hell of an entertainment for me.

 

[billymitchell]

Mostly Ocon's fault with both incidents.

A. Putting your teammate in the middle of 3 car sandwich going into Eau Rouge is reckless and dangerous (Villeneuve is right). There is only ONE line, which means 2 of 3 cars won't make it, and both Force India's almost wrecked before even getting there.

Alonso: "Overtaking in Eau Rouge is quite difficult, you need to get the commitment and respect from the other because there is only one line to go into the corner." (2m:5s in video)

B. Even if Ocon got alongside Perez while entering Eau Rouge, he's in the wrong position to take the turn.

Alonso: "There's plenty of people that got it wrong over the years in Eau Rouge by anticipating the corner a little bit by going too early, touching the inside curb, and then you have immediate snap." (1m:20s in video)

C. Patience isn't a virtue in F1, it's a requirement. If Ocon is getting such a brilliant drive out of Turn 1 compared to his teammate... he just needs to tuck into the slip stream and follow his teammate up Eau Rouge for an easy pass down the straight. There's a DRS zone up there for a reason!!

Source for Alonso quotes (click "Watch on www.youtube.com in the bottom right")

 

[BhZ]

People here are saying that Ocon should have waited for the second straight to attempt an overtake. First of all, that's not the point of this thread. Second of all, he had a better exit out of la source and he had the inside line for eau rouge. With the right timing, he would also get the DRS for the straight, leaving perez way behind. That was the right move to do, there's no doubt about that. Those who say that he should have waited probably deserve the boring DRS races that we often see in F1.
Perez closed the door too late and it was totally his fault. Ocon kept his line. They were on a straight, so no way Ocon is at fault here.

 

[BhZ]

Even if Ocon got alongside Perez while entering Eau Rouge, he's in the wrong position to take the turn.

This is not a reason for Ocon to be at fault. They never reached Eau Rouge. You don't know what they would have done once they get there, so you are literally accusing someone for something that did not happen. They were on the straight and Perez closed the line. It doesn't really matter if they were approaching eau rouge or the bus stop. A driver should never close a line on the straight if the other driver is next to him, quite simple.

C. Patience isn't a virtue in F1, it's a requirement. If Ocon is getting such a brilliant drive out of Turn 1 compared to his teammate... he just needs to tuck into the slip stream and follow his teammate up Eau Rouge for an easy pass down the straight. There's a DRS zone up there for a reason!!

When you are a driver, you consider every option. Even if the possibility was remote, it was worth trying to overtake him just before eau rouge but just after the DRS detection zone. Worst case scenario he lift the throttle and let Perez go and catch him with the DRS.

 

[Jimlaad43]

 

[billymitchell]

They never reached Eau Rouge. You don't know what they would have done once they get there, so you are literally accusing someone for something that did not happen.

You're right. They wrecked setting up for Eau Rouge during Turn 2, heading to a place where there is ONE racing line and respect is required between both (or three?) drivers to pass safely... that's not me talking, that's Fernando again.

They were on the straight and Perez closed the line.

They were not on a straight, they were going through Turn 2 (circuit map).

It doesn't really matter if they were approaching eau rouge or the bus stop.

A breaking zone with plenty of runoff (bus stop) is very different than an accelerating zone with concrete walls heading towards a 300kph chicane.

A driver should never close a line on the straight if the other driver is next to him, quite simple.

It's not a straight, it was Turn 2.

When you are a driver, you consider every option. Even if the possibility was remote, it was worth trying to overtake him just before eau rouge but just after the DRS detection zone.

Correct. Ocon considered his options and decided TWICE to pass during Turn 2 with a concrete wall (to his right) and a teammate who doesn't respect him (to his left), as if it were a viable passing opportunity.

Worst case scenario he lift the throttle and let Perez go and catch him with the DRS.

Incorrect, worse case scenario is that both Force India cars get wrecked. Which almost happened... both times Ocon tried to pass at Turn 2.

 

[Sky]

is it just me, or is this force india squabble just not that interesting?

 

[Lum]

They're our only chance to spice up the races when Verstappen's car is parked. Let them be!

 

[Enagee]

Wow i really see both incidents as Perez's fault , a few drivers like to force drivers off the road ... its part of racing .
Magnussen to Hulkenberg at Hungary and Vettel and Bottas Silverstone. Perez has never really been a clean racer , for those who remember Perez and Button at Mclaren Bahrain 2013.
But as team mates and the more experienced one Perez should have given room or let him pass and get the slipstream.
He feels threatened by Ocon, rather than use skill he's using force.

 

[jpalesi]

You're right. They wrecked setting up for Eau Rouge during Turn 2, heading to a place where there is ONE racing line and respect is required between both (or three?) drivers to pass safely... that's not me talking, that's Fernando again.

You said it, respect is required. Perez driving his team mate (or any driver) twice into the same wall isn't what I would call respect.
Besides, if Perez isn't able to take this "turn" side by side with another driver, then he should find another job.
Perez proved in 2014 that he can't take the kink at the start / finish line at Montreal without crashing, so he's quite experienced there.

 

[Nick Gregory]

I say the first lap incident was created by Hulkenberg. He moves to the right a little, and Perez moved to stay off him, but he unfortunately ended up hitting Ocon. The 2nd incident was Ocon's. He should not have put his car on the inside going to Eau Rouge.

Force India should enforce team orders, or else this will get worse.